So I've been playing around with a Tarkin Vic list, which relies heavily on a Rhymerball to do damage. But thus far I've been struggling with two things: one, I need more practice with squadrons, and two, what size Rhymerball is manageable?

The latest iteration has the following for a squadron build:

- Rhymer

- 2 x Jumpmasters

- 2 x Advanceds

- 6 x TIE Bombers

The idea with double Jumpmasters/Escorts is that I can cover the entire cluster of Squadrons even if my opponent brings a decent swarm, or split into two task forces against an MSU list that splits apart.

Is this too many squadrons? I feel like the last few games, the Ball just hasn't been effective. Of course, I've been pulling 4-6/6-4 matches. When each ship has eight hull, unless I make a major mistake, it's hard to table the list.

How do you all manage a Rhymerball? I feel like this list maybe relies on the bombers too heavily, so if they don't do their job, it just can't do enough damage. Should I cut it down? What size do most people run while finding it still effective?

I think you've got a decent idea. I think you can play a Rhymer-ball in several different ways. You highlight the escorts and jumpmasters. Intel and Escort are both extremely important. The last Rhymer-ball I saw was fairly typical:

4x Firespray

1x Rhymer

2x Tie Advanced

1x Dengar

Since the Firespray costs 18, you can fit 2 Tie Bombers for each, so the alternative version is to run 8 Tie Bombers instead, or two more than what you have above. So part of the problem with your ball is that you're missing a couple of dice. These are the basic versions that you'll see the most of. Slight variations are possible. I've seen Vader substituted for the 2x Advanced. You can certainly mix Firespray and bombers. The advantage of the Firespray is that they come with Rogue, which means the ball pretty much plays itself without a huge need for squadron activations. The weakness is that a typical anti-squadron defense can focus down a Firespray a turn, which can result in a huge loss of offensive potential pretty quickly.

In my game against the Rhymer ball, 6 fighters was enough to tie it up and prevent more than 2-3 shield points of damage on my ships. One way around this is what you've come up with above: Two jumpmasters. You can Intel everything and thereby ensure that the bombers or Firesprays can move and strike ships.

First, I'd add another Tie Bomber to your list. You've got 11 units, you might as well make it 12 and have another placement out of it.

Keep in mind that the fewer bombers that you take, the more that even a small anti-squadron force will be able to reduce your effectiveness.

There's one other Rhymer ball worth mentioning: Dengar, Mauler, Soontir, Vader, Rhymer, Firespray, Tie Advanced x2: This build is bomber light, but it will completely wreck an opposing anti-squadron force that tries to engage it; and if your opponent brings squadrons, it will tie them up nicely as well. It won't hit ships as hard early, but it can easily clean up the enemy squadrons in a couple of turns and then wreck him over a few turns.

There's one other Rhymer ball worth mentioning: Dengar, Mauler, Soontir, Vader, Rhymer, Firespray, Tie Advanced x2: This build is bomber light, but it will completely wreck an opposing anti-squadron force that tries to engage it; and if your opponent brings squadrons, it will tie them up nicely as well. It won't hit ships as hard early, but it can easily clean up the enemy squadrons in a couple of turns and then wreck him over a few turns.

Is your local meta so squadron-heavy that this ball is cost-effective?

My thought is that in building your squadron complement must have a good idea of what your meta tends to field. If you don't, you're going to be wasting a lot of your cost-effectiveness.

There's one other Rhymer ball worth mentioning: Dengar, Mauler, Soontir, Vader, Rhymer, Firespray, Tie Advanced x2: This build is bomber light, but it will completely wreck an opposing anti-squadron force that tries to engage it; and if your opponent brings squadrons, it will tie them up nicely as well. It won't hit ships as hard early, but it can easily clean up the enemy squadrons in a couple of turns and then wreck him over a few turns.

Is your local meta so squadron-heavy that this ball is cost-effective?

My thought is that in building your squadron complement must have a good idea of what your meta tends to field. If you don't, you're going to be wasting a lot of your cost-effectiveness.

That list could easily afford to drop either Vader or a T/A for another firespray. In fact, I'd almost be pretty certain you could drop both T/As for Bombers.

That list has Soontir, Mauler, Vader and Dengar and a firespray to do AA fire. Pair with a Flight Controller or the new fleet support upgrades and I think itll do fine vs mass squadron air superiority battles too.

Thanks for the input!

I think the reason I went with an odd number (much as I hate to with squadrons) was to fit a few more upgrades on the carriers. I had triple VSDs with Boosted Comms ('cause they be slow) and Defense Liaisons in a Tarkin list:

Precision Strike

Contested Outpost

Superior Positions

Grand Moff Tarkin

3 x VSDI

- Boosted Comms

- Defense Liaison

6 x Bombers

Rhymer

2 x Advanceds

2 x Jumpmasters

Would it be better to drop Defense Liaisons and up the bombers to 7, for twelve squadrons?

Essentially what ends up happening is a ball this size will not be able to command the entire mess without having to split it up at some point during a turn between multiple ships. Even TArkin can't mitigate the problem. That may be where your enemy gets to you with some hard thinking squadron play. Anyway as your list stands you can't command a ball of this size. You will have to be careful the order in which your squadrons move.

Drop a bomber, drop Defense Liaisons, put in Ordnance Experts. Swap out Contested Outpost for Fleet Ambush. The ambush zone is so small you will have a great idea where to expect the enemy. It will also allow your Victory's to work with the Rhymer ball earlier in the game. If you want to maintain the initiative bid, your list at this point would be a solid 390. Based on your objective selection it may not be a bad choice to go second. If you are less concerned drop one jump master for Dengar putting you at 398 and play the objective advantage. This may also feed your Victory's a ship that otherwise would have rather stayed out of range.

I agree with Vergilius about having more anti-squad as part of it. Any opponent bringing an anti-squad list will neuter your bombers fast.

When I run my favorite 3VSD1 Tarkin build I take 10 squads:

Rhymer

4xTIE Bomber

Dengar

Howl Runner

Mauler

Soontir

TIE Advanced

The TIE Advanced pretty much always dies, but the rest of that anti-squadron force is a real pain to deal with. The only force it will have trouble with is itself.

I value that over more TIE bombers because with the 3 Xwing/Jan being so common, you need something to deal with them. Also, after killing the opponents squads, 50/50 to hit on a ship from medium range isn't horrible.

It is a risk to run with so little fighter cover. Standard Aggressors also work well in this roll as their Rogue trait is not relying on your ships to keep them in the fight. This also allows them to be reactionary to hot spots in a 2nd player situation. Really there is no answer to everything.

There's one other Rhymer ball worth mentioning: Dengar, Mauler, Soontir, Vader, Rhymer, Firespray, Tie Advanced x2: This build is bomber light, but it will completely wreck an opposing anti-squadron force that tries to engage it; and if your opponent brings squadrons, it will tie them up nicely as well. It won't hit ships as hard early, but it can easily clean up the enemy squadrons in a couple of turns and then wreck him over a few turns.

Is your local meta so squadron-heavy that this ball is cost-effective?

My thought is that in building your squadron complement must have a good idea of what your meta tends to field. If you don't, you're going to be wasting a lot of your cost-effectiveness.

For all the talk about a "local meta," I'm not sure when we hit the point of having played enough games to say we understand the local meta. In the other thread, we've got a lot of people posting that they can find about 5 games a month. Up until this last month, I'd say that's true. I've only gotten more in the past month because I've played the same guy 8 times and played in a 3 round tournament. Then when it comes to the big tournament, there is always the one guy that comes in from two hours away that completely breaks the meta. On the whole, if I were picking up 10 games a month against different opponents, I'd feel comfortable saying I have a decent appreciation of the meta.

I agree with you that in the long haul, you are better off fielding what will counter the popular builds in the area.

The above build is somewhat deceptive on paper. On paper, it has lost three bomber dice and decreased the quality of three other dice slightly. In practice, if you take care of intercepting fighters and get to shooting ships, earlier, longer, and with more surviving squadrons in your ball, the long-term damage is about the same.

My latest ball was.

3X VSD

2x Advanceds

4x Bombers

Rhymer

Dengar

2x Firesprays

I really like the firesprays over more bombers for the increased anti-fighter capability but also two more squads without heavy. The also reduce the demand for squad commands a little. I also ran flight controllers on two of the VSD's which really helped in squad heavy games. I even threw the bombers at some squads in a pinch. Boosted coms on all of the VSDs really helps you get a little more fast and loose with your squads.

Here is my take on the ball. I myself like a dedicated and flexible ball. I've seen bomber heavy forces get wrecked fast, and I've also seen the light bomber builds effect the game little. Me personally if you're going to hit the ball, you're going to pay for it dearly as interceptors/dengar makes an attack on the force costly. Flight controllers is down right mean as you have interceptors tossing five dice, dengar throws 4, and the bombers get a blue and a black (or two black?) and Rhymer is two blue black. Corrupter has the bombers keeping pace with the interceptors and boosted comms keeps everyone in range whilst Tarkin and his cheeky tokenness (hehehe cheeky) keeps everyone happy with squadron commands.

The ball depends upon being able to use it before it gets shredded. Tarkin + Boosted Comms + Corrupter = flexibility. The Interceptors just mesh so so so well as escorts and Dengar keeps everyone trucking...it's beautiful when someone throws Jan and her minions at it...and she dies from being nickled and dimed by counter 3 interceptors....and counter 1 Tie Bombers.

When it comes to anti-ship...I've got so much fire power against the anti squadron crowd if I've done it right my force is fairly intact (I have been TOTALLY shafted by dice before so...) The interceptors/dengar are great for plinking down shields until the bombers have their turn.

By this stage, the Vics are point blank and either ramming/attacking or already moved on to other targets.

VSD Carrier Build
Author: GottMituns205

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Corrupter ( 5 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)
4 TIE Interceptor Squadrons ( 44 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points)

There is no such thing as to many squadrons. There is such a thing as not enough Squadron Commands. To be efficient with Bombers/Squadrons you must be able to activate all of them via squadron command/rouge moves per turn. This is my rule as "that Rhymer Ball guy". For example. My Victory has Squadron 4 (Squadron 3 + a Token). I have 8 Squadrons. 4 are Rouge 4 are not. This allows me to get use out of every squadron per turn.

1) Where is your Rhymer? There is no reason not to include him?

2) Are you running Flight Controlllers? I would do that.

3) You're anti Squadron setup is weak, i suggest combinations of/or including Vader/Mauler/Ties

4) Cut all Liasons, pay for most of Rhymer. You should be doing squadron commands most of the game (if not all of it).

Here is my take on the ball. I myself like a dedicated and flexible ball. I've seen bomber heavy forces get wrecked fast, and I've also seen the light bomber builds effect the game little. Me personally if you're going to hit the ball, you're going to pay for it dearly as interceptors/dengar makes an attack on the force costly. Flight controllers is down right mean as you have interceptors tossing five dice, dengar throws 4, and the bombers get a blue and a black (or two black?) and Rhymer is two blue black. Corrupter has the bombers keeping pace with the interceptors and boosted comms keeps everyone in range whilst Tarkin and his cheeky tokenness (hehehe cheeky) keeps everyone happy with squadron commands.

The ball depends upon being able to use it before it gets shredded. Tarkin + Boosted Comms + Corrupter = flexibility. The Interceptors just mesh so so so well as escorts and Dengar keeps everyone trucking...it's beautiful when someone throws Jan and her minions at it...and she dies from being nickled and dimed by counter 3 interceptors....and counter 1 Tie Bombers.

When it comes to anti-ship...I've got so much fire power against the anti squadron crowd if I've done it right my force is fairly intact (I have been TOTALLY shafted by dice before so...) The interceptors/dengar are great for plinking down shields until the bombers have their turn.

By this stage, the Vics are point blank and either ramming/attacking or already moved on to other targets.

VSD Carrier Build

Author: GottMituns205

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 399/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)

- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)

- Corrupter ( 5 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

4 TIE Interceptor Squadrons ( 44 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points)

How's this been working for you?

I like your squadrons in this.

I think Corrupter could be a different ship. As it stands, I wanna kill your flag ship that's even more expensive.

Also, I think one Vic can drop Flight Controllers. As you probably only need 8 squadrons to attack other squadrons. Gives you room for something...

Also, I think you have 9? Not that it matter much now. but 1-2 firesprays over 2 interceptors increases your bombing load.

--

I'm currently really liking my own Rhymer ball, it has 2 bombers and 2 firesprays. And it really offsets the command requirement a lot.

It has done amazing...counter counter counter man...mAke them pay to attack you.

Corruptor is there for the,bombers to keep pace.

May mess with a gonzo in this list..

Largest Rhymerball I've ever run was:

Rhymer

6 TIE Bombers

Howlrunner

6 TIE Fighters

14 squadrons in total, exactly 134 points.

It was mostly for the lulz, but against light to moderate squadron opposition, the TIE Fighters themselves are quite capable of sweeping aside enemy fighters to clear the way for your TIE Bombers without the vulnerability of your Intel suite breaking down or being unable to protect so many squadrons (which is a problem for 7 total bomber squadrons). Against a heavier squadron approach, the TIEs can dogfight with the enemy fighters then any survivors can cause trouble with your enemy's bomber blob.

The main issue was the entire swarm was very hungry for squadron commands which not even 3 VSDs with Tarkin can provide consistently (although casualties "help" with that). I'm interested in trying it again with Gozantis and Bomber Command Center once wave three is available.

Wow, thanks for the feedback! First, in response to a couple of comments/inquiries:

- There is enough Squadron value to cover the entire ball. 3 VSDs at Squadrons 3 plus a token for each brings it to 12.

- Rhymer is in there. I don't leave home (with bombers) without him.

After fudging around a little bit, I'm trying to bring more anti-squadron capability in while still maintaining plenty of anti-ship damage. Here's what I have so far:

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 398/400

Commander: Grand Moff Tarkin

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

[ flagship ] Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Grand Moff Tarkin ( 38 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)
3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
1 IG-88 ( 21 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)

There seems to be a good amount of Jan/Wedge/X-Wing and Dengar/Vader/Soontir/Mauler shenanigans in my area. Mauler and IG-88 should help with that. Instead of having to cut through all of Jan's Escorts, Mauler and IG-88 can almost guarantee to kill her in two activations (unless I get a super lucky three hits, two Accuracy, then one activation). Same against the Imperial force - Mauler drops Soontir down to two Hull, and if I can roll 3+ damage with one accuracy using IG-88, bye bye Soontir. In either case, the Advanceds can keep the enemy fighters off their backs (hopefully) long enough to get their jobs done, while also pumping some shots into other squadrons. If I run up against a no-squadron build, I still have four non-bomber black dice from the Advanceds, IG-88 and Dengar to chuck at ships.

Of course, if I make this switch, it drops my squadron count down to nine, one of which has Rogue, and is small enough for the VSDs to cover the whole ball without Tarkin. And since I'm not taking advantage of excess tokens with Liaison or anything like that, I'm better off dropping him in favor of Motti to free up fourteen points and make my VSDs a little tougher. Then again, those fourteen points could be spend on Squadrons, which brings me back above my Squadron 9 threshold! Another idea I had was this:

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

[ flagship ] Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Boosted Comms ( 4 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
1 IG-88 ( 21 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)
1 TIE Advanced Squadron ( 12 points)

Although I'm not sold on Vader's effectiveness. I brought him to the last store championship, and he just dies a little bit slower than a regular advanced. If I drop him, I can get a second TIE Advanced AND a fourth Bomber. But he does have a nice damage output, and keeps my number of squadrons equal with my squadron activations.

My Rhymer Ball list is actually a pocket carrier build that works really well.

Commander - Tarkin

Flagship - Glad-1

- Admiral Monteferrat

- Ordnance Experts

- Nav Team

1- Glad-1

- Ordnance Experts

- Nav Team

- Demolisher

2- Raider-1

- Expanded Hangar Bay

1- Major Rhymer

3- TIE Bomber

2- TIE Advanced

6- TIE Fighter

Points - 394

It got me 2nd and 3rd in the two Store Championships I went to and it usually only loses 1-2 Ships. Each ship can command 3 Squadrons and the Squadrons do most of the work, suplimented by Demolisher. This list has even taken out ISDs in the equivalent of 1 turn(4 ship activations and squadron phase). But it took a lot of time to learn to play properly and is very unforgiving of mistakes.

As for the size of the Rhymer Ball, bigger isn't necesarily better. They become unwieldy and easy to separate and pick apart. This small force works with the Fighters as a screen and the Advanced actively protecting Rhymer while still lending a Black Die to damage ships. I could field more Bombers but I don't think I need to. At least not until I can take Flotillas that can command up to 4 squads a turn.

Vader is highly effective. That is if you don't use him to body block Xwings or Ties all the time. Why is Vader so good? Because Crits count as damage. This is huge.

-His Black Dice is essentially a Bomber damage (ie: 2), just without a Crit

-Blue Dice crits destroy squadrons. Add in Flight Controllers you have 4 Blue 1 Black, all crits count as damage. I have one shot X-wings more than a couple of times. He does massive damage

-He has good counter combined with Punishing One because of this crit potential

-All of this is to say he does extremely consistent damage.

To use escort effectively i let my bombers absorb some damage (depening on initivate/their build) then Vader will come, shoot the attacking squadrons now he will protect the weakened ones with escort (forcing them to change focus). You want avoid gettting no trade out of a 21 point bullet magnet, unless their anti squadron is heavily invested in (eg: Flight Controller/Howl Runner/Tie level of anti fighter). Then you might want to consider what is important. Saving bombers (which is your main source of firepower) or saving Vader. The squadron sub game is knowing when to sacrfice a particular unit and when to activate/command/move them.

Another aspect which is good is having Black Dice non Bombers. If you should do this 100% of the time all of the time. My one expection is Mauler.

I would build it first max out the points to build it and its fighter cap with the fighters you have and want to put in it, then build the fleet to work it.

Gozantis will make them even more fun in the future.

Yeah, that Bomber Command Center will make a huge impact. It'll negate crap dice, and make them more reliable overall. Plus you can get three Gozantis for less than the cost of a single VSD, bringing more hull and Squadron commands.

I think 2 would be enough with 3 bombers including rhymer and 3 firesprays. Dengar and an advance or 2. Both Gozantis have EHBs with one with vector to push the firesprays.