Looks like Señor Gernes is spending his Thursday answering questions... Just the answer we expected on this one, though: "wait for the FAQ."

So, at least we know it's on their radar for the FAQ.

Hey guys, question on General Tagge and Devastator: Do recovered defense tokens still count as having been discarded for the purposes of card effects? The specific instance in question: if I discard one of Devastator's defense tokens on turn 2, then get it back with General Tagge on Turn 3, do I still get the Devastator blue die from having previously discarded the token, even though I've now recovered it?

Hello, Ardaedhel,

To ensure accurate and complete information, we are spending time collecting questions and compiling answers for the Imperial Assault Carriers expansion. Once this process is complete, we will answer your question in a timely manner. An updated Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) document will also be posted on our website at that time.

Thanks for playing!

Michael Gernes

Game Producer

[email protected]

Let's start with the card text of Devastator itself: "Once per round, while attacking from your front hull zone, you may add one blue die for each of your discarded defense tokens"

So the difference really comes down to the following: Is "discarded" an act by the player or an ongoing status that can change.

There are no clear examples set in the Rules Reference Guide. The closest it comes to saying anything is "When a card is discarded or flipped facedown, its effect is no longer active in the game" (Effect Use and Timing). And it's explicit that is in regards to cards, not tokens.

The issue is that Recovering a token is unclear. Does this mean that the token was always there but unavailable, or was it brought back after completely leaving the game?

My argument is that the act of discarding the token gained the benefit. A token that was discarded can still be recovered, but it was still discarded. If we start saying that discarded tokens stick around, then it does strange things to token management and statuses. For example, what happens when you discard a command token as a result of critical damage or effects?

Devastator card text is pretty clear. "each of your discarded defense tokens" is talking about the token, not an action. "each token you discarded" could be interpreted either way.

Tagge also specifically states you recover one of your discarded defense tokens, not replace.. so it's not a "new" token being added to the pool, it's the token that was in a discarded status recovering to ready status.

Your argument would mean if I exhaust my defense token, then refresh it, I would still lose it when I used it next, because even tho I have since refreshed the token, I still had taken the action of exhausting it earlier. A token is ready, exhausted, or discarded..

Let's start with the card text of Devastator itself: "Once per round, while attacking from your front hull zone, you may add one blue die for each of your discarded defense tokens"

So the difference really comes down to the following: Is "discarded" an act by the player or an ongoing status that can change.

There are no clear examples set in the Rules Reference Guide. The closest it comes to saying anything is "When a card is discarded or flipped facedown, its effect is no longer active in the game" (Effect Use and Timing). And it's explicit that is in regards to cards, not tokens.

The issue is that Recovering a token is unclear. Does this mean that the token was always there but unavailable, or was it brought back after completely leaving the game?

My argument is that the act of discarding the token gained the benefit. A token that was discarded can still be recovered, but it was still discarded. If we start saying that discarded tokens stick around, then it does strange things to token management and statuses. For example, what happens when you discard a command token as a result of critical damage or effects?

Devastator card text is pretty clear. "each of your discarded defense tokens" is talking about the token, not an action. "each token you discarded" could be interpreted either way.

Tagge also specifically states you recover one of your discarded defense tokens, not replace.. so it's not a "new" token being added to the pool, it's the token that was in a discarded status recovering to ready status.

Your argument would mean if I exhaust my defense token, then refresh it, I would still lose it when I used it next, because even tho I have since refreshed the token, I still had taken the action of exhausting it earlier. A token is ready, exhausted, or discarded..

"Discarded" is a past tense verb in English. It can absolutely mean a token that was acted on by the player. It can also mean the status of having been discarded. FFG needs to rule. This is a basic language structure issue that needs clarification.

Well, let's look at this logically shall we.

First, you have to have discarded a token. Of check.

Next you only had 4 tokens (which is what Devastator is checking from) so now you have 3 token.

Last, Tagge recovered a token so you now have 4 again.

So Devastator would see 4 tokens and go, none have been discarded.

I don't get why an FAQ is needed. This is all simple logic. You are not "Gaining" a token. Now, if Tagge said "gain" a token, I could understand this argument.

Oh! Perfect question.

Of you have not discarded a token, can Tagge recover a token?

Of If you have not discarded a token, can Tagge recover a token?

Of course not, but that proves nothing because you're arguing against a point nobody is making. The question is whether "discarded" on Devastator ( not Tagge) is

A) a reference to a past action, or

B) a state that a token can carry that it loses when Tagge recovers it

This question is unrelated to logic. It is an English grammar question.

Of If you have not discarded a token, can Tagge recover a token?

Of course not, but that proves nothing because you're arguing against a point nobody is making. The question is whether "discarded" on Devastator ( not Tagge) is

A) a reference to a past action, or

B) a state that a token can carry that it loses when Tagge recovers it

This question is unrelated to logic. It is an English grammar question.

It does prove something. You can't recover something not used.

Let's go on a different track. How are you to track what tokens got discarded if there are none currently discarded?

The game checks what is discarded by the ship card so how do you track it?

As for your English question. Discarded is past tense because that's what you are for. However, the game needs something to check to see if you have any discarded tokens. Thus it checks the ship and upgrade cards to see what tokens you are supposed to have and then your current tokens to see what you actually have.

So if there is a discrepancy, that means that a token has been discarded. If there are no discrepancy, you have nothing discarded.

As for your English question. Discarded is past tense because that's what you are for. However, the game needs something to check to see if you have any discarded tokens. Thus it checks the ship and upgrade cards to see what tokens you are supposed to have and then your current tokens to see what you actually have.

So if there is a discrepancy, that means that a token has been discarded. If there are no discrepancy, you have nothing discarded.

This is totally made up out of thin air, with zero rules basis.

Let's just wait for the FAQ, which will answer for this position anyway since it's the obvious intent.

How is this made up in the air? How does Devastator check for discarded tokens?

Once you answer that you can find your answer.

I think it is absurdly simple. The ship card and upgrades dictate what Defense tokens you get to start with. Thus, you check that to see if any are discarded.

There is no "supply" of discarded tokens becuase you could have 4 different ships with discarded tokens. At that point how can you tell who discarded what?

Keep track of devestator dice numbers with tokens on the card.

Notice i didnt say defence tokens.

Keep track of devestator dice numbers with tokens on the card.

Notice i didnt say defence tokens.

Sure but what does the game look for? what does it check? the only thing is the card and upgrades.

How is this made up in the air? How does Devastator check for discarded tokens?

Once you answer that you can find your answer.

I think it is absurdly simple. The ship card and upgrades dictate what Defense tokens you get to start with. Thus, you check that to see if any are discarded.

There is no "supply" of discarded tokens becuase you could have 4 different ships with discarded tokens. At that point how can you tell who discarded what?

Yes, a player could check the ship to see if tokens have been discarded. But that doesn't solve the problem.

There is nothing that states what happens in the game to a discarded token. Nothing. At all. Even spent command tokens just sort of vanish as far as the game is concerned until they reappear again. And that's the problem: what is the state of a Defense Token that has been "discarded?" Is it the act of discarding it? Is it an ongoing state? Are all tokens no on a ship considered "discarded" until assigned to a ship? Or is the token still attached to the ship but unusable?

This is a language issue, in that we don't know what "discarded" means in game terms, except that a discarded piece no longer has an effect on the ship or squadron that token or card is assigned to. And since we don't know what Discarded means, there's a core problem in interpreting Tagge with Devastator, Because unlike other ships Devastator actually cares about Discarded tokens.

In fact, Devastator and Tagge are the only upgrades so far that interact with discarded tokens of any kind .

And that's why we need an FAQ or errata.

Actually, According to the Rules:

A Discarded Token is Returned To the Supply .

The Supply is determined as the game components that are not currently in play.

References: Learn to Play, Page 14, States that:

a Discarded Token is Returned to the supply .

RRG, Page 13, Supply:

The supply consists of all tokens and dials that are not currently being used.

Actually, According to the Rules:

A Discarded Token is Returned To the Supply .

The Supply is determined as the game components that are not currently in play.

References: Learn to Play, Page 14, States that:

a Discarded Token is Returned to the supply .

RRG, Page 13, Supply:

The supply consists of all tokens and dials that are not currently being used.

Learn to Play is not part of the Rules Reference Guide. None of the rules included are valid for competitive play.

And this still hasn't answered the basic language question: Is Discarded an ongoing status?

When a token is discarded, it is not in play, as play states are defined as "Readied" and "Exhausted"...

When it is not in play, it is in the Supply. That is what the supply exists for.

Ok, we have established that there is a supply. Now how does Devastator check if a token was discarded?

Thanks Lyr. This is exactly the situation.

I was. To prompt a response but it looks like it won't happen.

All right let's break it down shall we.

Page 4 of the RRG.

Guys lets leave.

The evidence points 99% towards Dras/Lyraeus' point of view.

What the evidence does not doo is rule out the 1% chance of Cactus' view.

Leave it till release.

To the surprise of no one at all...

Hello, Ardaedhel.

In response to your question:

Rules Question:

Hey guys, question on General Tagge and Devastator: Do recovered defense tokens still count as having been discarded for the purposes of card effects? The specific instance in question: if I discard one of Devastator's defense tokens on turn 2, then get it back with General Tagge on Turn 3, do I still get the Devastator blue die from having previously discarded the token, even though I've now recovered it?

A recovered defense token does not count as discarded for determining the number of dice added by Devastator’s effect. If that token is later discarded, it would then count for Devastator’s effect.

Thanks for your question!

Michael Gernes

Game Producer

Should I update my thread to reflect Michael's ruling on this? Just add another section for email clarification? I think I should.

ZZZZZZZ.... ah what?!!

Sorry I most have nodded of for a bit