Alright finally got a look at it and yep it is able to be activated multiples times. Wow that's broken as hell. So effectively someone with Force rating 2 could hypothetically throw the Death Star, think I'm going to house rule with the older version for that.

It's not really broken, if you want to allow a Force Unleashed type of game. The rules are flexible enough to allow you to scale up to whatever EU-fantasy you want. It's incumbent upon the GM to provide whatever limits they think necessary for the flavour of their game. It's also simple enough to put a cap if you need to.

That said, for my game that flexibility and the need for limits means Move-as-written is a fairly wasteful power tree. In my game, nobody is "throwing" an AT-AT, or even an AT-ST. You could consider moving an AT-AT...if you're Yoda/Palpatine/Mace. A pip-per-Silhouette is a base line for me, which means 3 of the Strength upgrades are wasted space that could be filled with tactical or control options.

Alright finally got a look at it and yep it is able to be activated multiples times. Wow that's broken as hell. So effectively someone with Force rating 2 could hypothetically throw the Death Star, think I'm going to house rule with the older version for that.

It's not really broken, if you want to allow a Force Unleashed type of game. The rules are flexible enough to allow you to scale up to whatever EU-fantasy you want. It's incumbent upon the GM to provide whatever limits they think necessary for the flavour of their game. It's also simple enough to put a cap if you need to.

That said, for my game that flexibility and the need for limits means Move-as-written is a fairly wasteful power tree. In my game, nobody is "throwing" an AT-AT, or even an AT-ST. You could consider moving an AT-AT...if you're Yoda/Palpatine/Mace. A pip-per-Silhouette is a base line for me, which means 3 of the Strength upgrades are wasted space that could be filled with tactical or control options.

Take a look at the full wording of the Strength and Magnitude Upgrades in Force and Destiny under the Move power.

Both of them include the sentence "this upgrade can be activated multiple times."

So yes, it would be possible to affect objects greater than Silhouette 4, such as an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. However, you'd need all the Range Upgrades and likely need to trigger them twice to move said Star Destroyer any appreciable distance.

That said, it used to be in EotE and AoR that the Strength Upgrades for Move didn't include "this upgrade can be activated multiple times," so at one point you were capped at Silhouette 4 for moving things. With FaD being the latest iteration of the rules where the Force is concerned, I'd say that takes precedence over the older versions of Move.

I personally think another good thing to do about Move, is to adopt the rule they came up with for Battle Meditation. Add an upgrade at the bottom of the tree to switch bands from personal to planetary, at the cost of strain.

By the way were is the dice cap on difficulty dice mentioned?

A-Wing with Jammer and night shadow sil 1 vs gozanti sil 5:

5 purple, 2 upgrades from intuitive evasion, 1 upgrades from evasive maneuvers, one destiny point for another upgrade, "This one is Mine" with two ranks in evasion for a 6th dice. Why not? (And we could ven add a couple more upgrades)

By the way were is the dice cap on difficulty dice mentioned?

A-Wing with Jammer and night shadow sil 1 vs gozanti sil 5:

5 purple, 2 upgrades from intuitive evasion, 1 upgrades from evasive maneuvers, one destiny point for another upgrade, "This one is Mine" with two ranks in evasion for a 6th dice. Why not? (And we could ven add a couple more upgrades)

Ok so I was correct you can't move anything bigger than silhouette 5 unless the GM allows it specifically, here's my response from Sam Stewart:

"If the difficulty increases past 5 difficulty dice, the task becomes impossible. Impossible tasks, by their very nature, are impossible, but GMs can allow players to attempt impossible tasks if the GM feels it makes sense. The sidebar on page 27 of the F&D Core Rulebook goes into more detail, but basically the GM has to allow the PC to make the attempt, then the PC has to spend a Destiny Point just for the chance to make the attempt (which also means the PC can’t spend Destiny Points to do anything else).

In short, if the GM feels like throwing a Star Destroyer fits with the campaign the GM is running, then the GM can allow players to make that very hard check. If not, the GM is perfectly allowed to say “nope, not going to happen.”

If the PC is not trying to throw the Star Destroyer, just move it, then the power becomes a little easier since there’s no inherent check. Just remember that moving it is limited to personal scale, which means that at maximum, you may be hauling this thing a few hundred meters to a kilometer at a slow and stately pace, and if it runs into stuff, it’s going to be more a bump than a crash.

Hope that helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager"

And here was the question I asked to get that response:

"Rules Question:

There was a small discussion about the force move power. The strength upgrade increases the silhouette of the target you can throw (hurl) once per strength upgrade purchased. Thus a character with 4 strength upgrades could increase the silhouette of their target by +4 for a single pip. Now here's where the conflict came in, a star destroyer is silhouette 8 and it seems a not broken that any player could throw one (even if at extreme range buying the range upgrades would just require one more pip so 4 total to toss one is not tough to do aside from the difficulty). This said earlier in every rule book difficulty rules state that difficulty goes up to daunting which if I remember correctly, is 5 difficulty. Whilst Hurl rules say you can throw an object and the difficulty is set by its silhouette and thus the question comes that is it possible to throw an object above silhouette 5 as the difficulty would exceed the normal maximum of 5 difficulty dice?"

Ok so I was correct you can't move anything bigger than silhouette 5 unless the GM allows it specifically, here's my response from Sam Stewart:

"If the difficulty increases past 5 difficulty dice, the task becomes impossible. Impossible tasks, by their very nature, are impossible, but GMs can allow players to attempt impossible tasks if the GM feels it makes sense. The sidebar on page 27 of the F&D Core Rulebook goes into more detail, but basically the GM has to allow the PC to make the attempt, then the PC has to spend a Destiny Point just for the chance to make the attempt (which also means the PC can’t spend Destiny Points to do anything else).

In short, if the GM feels like throwing a Star Destroyer fits with the campaign the GM is running, then the GM can allow players to make that very hard check. If not, the GM is perfectly allowed to say “nope, not going to happen.”

If the PC is not trying to throw the Star Destroyer, just move it, then the power becomes a little easier since there’s no inherent check. Just remember that moving it is limited to personal scale, which means that at maximum, you may be hauling this thing a few hundred meters to a kilometer at a slow and stately pace, and if it runs into stuff, it’s going to be more a bump than a crash.

Hope that helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager"

And here was the question I asked to get that response:

"Rules Question:

There was a small discussion about the force move power. The strength upgrade increases the silhouette of the target you can throw (hurl) once per strength upgrade purchased. Thus a character with 4 strength upgrades could increase the silhouette of their target by +4 for a single pip. Now here's where the conflict came in, a star destroyer is silhouette 8 and it seems a not broken that any player could throw one (even if at extreme range buying the range upgrades would just require one more pip so 4 total to toss one is not tough to do aside from the difficulty). This said earlier in every rule book difficulty rules state that difficulty goes up to daunting which if I remember correctly, is 5 difficulty. Whilst Hurl rules say you can throw an object and the difficulty is set by its silhouette and thus the question comes that is it possible to throw an object above silhouette 5 as the difficulty would exceed the normal maximum of 5 difficulty dice?"

Slight clarification based on the very first thing you said. You absolutely can [/b]MOVE[/b] something higher than 5 without needing GM permission. There is a difference in Moving and Throwing. As you said in your Sam quote, if you're just moving the object, and can generate the pips needed to activate all the necessary upgrades, there's no reason you can't do it. If you are Throwing it as part of an attack action, thus requiring a discipline check, then yeah, there might be some limiting factors based on dice pool size. I mean, if a difficulty is called "impossible", but they still actually assign it a dice pool, then it seems they are expecting someone to try it.

Though I always figure trying to hit someone with a sil 5+ item is kind of pointless, because if you are operating on personal scale, trying to hit someone that close to you, is most likely going to mean you are hitting yourself, given the size of the object. Player: "I throw the Silhouette 8 size star destroyer on his head!" GM: "....You do realize that object is a couple kilometers long right?" Player: "Yeah! It will be awesome!" GM "....you do realize the guy you are throwing it at is only 30 yards away from you right?" Player: "Yeah?" GM: "Ever see Looney Tunes? As you throw the ship, the massive shadow of the object also falls over you, and you realize that trying to hit someone that freaking close to you with an object that big is going to include you." It's like trying to hit one specific ant with a cinder block, without hitting the other ant a few inches away from it. It's just not happening.

Also, trying to move something that big and hit something, would require it to move a significant distance. Meaning multiple rounds of effort. You don't just instantly fling it like you would a beer can or a droid. Nothing close enough to be an instant action attack would actually be there. Like, maybe a TIE fighter flying patrol would be close enough to smack with it...but really...that's overkill. So any significant target would likely be at several kilometers of distance, and moving it that far would be several range bands on planetary, and I would require that to be several rounds of effort and strain to accomplish.

I mean, if my player spends the XP to pull that off, and gets the crazy hair up his ass to try it, sure. But I'm going to make him suffer for it. Strain every round, converting into Wound if he has to maintain it longer than his strain allows, bonuses to anyone trying to hit him as he stands there. All kinds of stuff. That way, if he still pulls it off, it will be worth it, and **** satisfying. But I'm not going to just let him fling a star destroyer at max velocity with a casual swing of his hand.

I mean we see Yoda in Ep 2, have to devote all of his effort to catch that...what, silhouette 3 object that almost crushed Anakin and Obi-Wan? And he was clearly slowing it down for at least a round before it came to a stop, then a few rounds of controlling it before he could toss it to the side. It's an effort to Move something that big, and one that takes a lot of time.

Or at least that's my call on it.

Pardon yes throw, moving alone isn't so broken as it doesn't hurt anyone whilst hurling it is more what I was taking issue with do to the mass overkill it would cause. Though given extreme range would allow that to be thrown in ship distance into another ship if you had a visual prior to that clarification.

Ok so I was correct you can't move anything bigger than silhouette 5 unless the GM allows it specifically, here's my response from Sam Stewart:

"If the difficulty increases past 5 difficulty dice, the task becomes impossible. Impossible tasks, by their very nature, are impossible, but GMs can allow players to attempt impossible tasks if the GM feels it makes sense. The sidebar on page 27 of the F&D Core Rulebook goes into more detail, but basically the GM has to allow the PC to make the attempt, then the PC has to spend a Destiny Point just for the chance to make the attempt (which also means the PC can’t spend Destiny Points to do anything else).

In short, if the GM feels like throwing a Star Destroyer fits with the campaign the GM is running, then the GM can allow players to make that very hard check. If not, the GM is perfectly allowed to say “nope, not going to happen.”

If the PC is not trying to throw the Star Destroyer, just move it, then the power becomes a little easier since there’s no inherent check. Just remember that moving it is limited to personal scale, which means that at maximum, you may be hauling this thing a few hundred meters to a kilometer at a slow and stately pace, and if it runs into stuff, it’s going to be more a bump than a crash.

Hope that helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager"

And here was the question I asked to get that response:

"Rules Question:

There was a small discussion about the force move power. The strength upgrade increases the silhouette of the target you can throw (hurl) once per strength upgrade purchased. Thus a character with 4 strength upgrades could increase the silhouette of their target by +4 for a single pip. Now here's where the conflict came in, a star destroyer is silhouette 8 and it seems a not broken that any player could throw one (even if at extreme range buying the range upgrades would just require one more pip so 4 total to toss one is not tough to do aside from the difficulty). This said earlier in every rule book difficulty rules state that difficulty goes up to daunting which if I remember correctly, is 5 difficulty. Whilst Hurl rules say you can throw an object and the difficulty is set by its silhouette and thus the question comes that is it possible to throw an object above silhouette 5 as the difficulty would exceed the normal maximum of 5 difficulty dice?"

Excellent this means as well that it might become impossible to hit small fighters pilot by star fighter aces with bigger ships and a few other things when you bring enough stuff to raise the difficulty.

Without resurrecting the "Move debate", allow me...as a matter of personal preference...to disgree that Move is the power used for Force pushing. For that, I'd use Unleash. Again, personal preference and while Move has been clarified to affect living beings, having it thrust people away (even if mechanically similar) crosses too far into a conrete aspect of Unleash.

All that mentioned, do what you enjoy, of course. Star Wars is wonderful in that you can bend things and it's hard to actually break it.

Without resurrecting the "Move debate", allow me...as a matter of personal preference...to disgree that Move is the power used for Force pushing. For that, I'd use Unleash. Again, personal preference and while Move has been clarified to affect living beings, having it thrust people away (even if mechanically similar) crosses too far into a conrete aspect of Unleash.

All that mentioned, do what you enjoy, of course. Star Wars is wonderful in that you can bend things and it's hard to actually break it.

I could agree, but that would mean even young Ahsoka has Unleash...and FR3...

Without resurrecting the "Move debate", allow me...as a matter of personal preference...to disgree that Move is the power used for Force pushing. For that, I'd use Unleash. Again, personal preference and while Move has been clarified to affect living beings, having it thrust people away (even if mechanically similar) crosses too far into a conrete aspect of Unleash.

All that mentioned, do what you enjoy, of course. Star Wars is wonderful in that you can bend things and it's hard to actually break it.

Unleash is just raw damage, and while it can be flavored as telekinesis, said power is more about smacking down your target as hard as possible.

Plus, we see characters in the films who quite likely do not have Protect/Unleash making use of a Force push, mostly to throw their adversary or adversaries back a noticeable distance, such as Yoda hurling Palps ass-over-teakettle past his desk and into his office chair just before their big throw-down in RotS.

In addition, it's going to take most players a long time to get their PCs up to Force Rating 3, which is the requirement to be able to learn the Protect/Unleash power. Given that we see Padawans/apprentices make with the Force pushing, it makes more sense to use Move, which only requires Force Rating 1 in order to learn. If the PC doesn't want to deal damage, then they can simply choose not to use the Control Upgrade to hurl objects. Prime example would be Kanan in Rebels using the Force to very briefly hold the Inquisitor up against the ceiling to allow Ezra get past during Rise of the Old Masters. No harm was done to the Inquisitor, with GM Filoni allowing Kanan's player to narrate the successful Discipline vs. Athletics check as Kanan using the Force to briefly pin the Inquisitor against the ceiling, using a Triumph generated to have the Inquisitor treated as though knocked prone.

Ok so I was correct you can't move anything bigger than silhouette 5 unless the GM allows it specifically, here's my response from Sam Stewart:

"If the difficulty increases past 5 difficulty dice, the task becomes impossible. Impossible tasks, by their very nature, are impossible, but GMs can allow players to attempt impossible tasks if the GM feels it makes sense. The sidebar on page 27 of the F&D Core Rulebook goes into more detail, but basically the GM has to allow the PC to make the attempt, then the PC has to spend a Destiny Point just for the chance to make the attempt (which also means the PC can’t spend Destiny Points to do anything else).

In short, if the GM feels like throwing a Star Destroyer fits with the campaign the GM is running, then the GM can allow players to make that very hard check. If not, the GM is perfectly allowed to say “nope, not going to happen.”

If the PC is not trying to throw the Star Destroyer, just move it, then the power becomes a little easier since there’s no inherent check. Just remember that moving it is limited to personal scale, which means that at maximum, you may be hauling this thing a few hundred meters to a kilometer at a slow and stately pace, and if it runs into stuff, it’s going to be more a bump than a crash.

Hope that helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager"

And here was the question I asked to get that response:

"Rules Question:

There was a small discussion about the force move power. The strength upgrade increases the silhouette of the target you can throw (hurl) once per strength upgrade purchased. Thus a character with 4 strength upgrades could increase the silhouette of their target by +4 for a single pip. Now here's where the conflict came in, a star destroyer is silhouette 8 and it seems a not broken that any player could throw one (even if at extreme range buying the range upgrades would just require one more pip so 4 total to toss one is not tough to do aside from the difficulty). This said earlier in every rule book difficulty rules state that difficulty goes up to daunting which if I remember correctly, is 5 difficulty. Whilst Hurl rules say you can throw an object and the difficulty is set by its silhouette and thus the question comes that is it possible to throw an object above silhouette 5 as the difficulty would exceed the normal maximum of 5 difficulty dice?"

Excellent this means as well that it might become impossible to hit small fighters pilot by star fighter aces with bigger ships and a few other things when you bring enough stuff to raise the difficulty.

Also if it becomes an issue of someone just having a ton of talents I feel that would fall into the GM exception area for allowing a roll.

I see throwing people back with Unleash as a use of Triumph and/or Advantage. After two years of in-game time, one of a Force user's ratings is 4, so as far as a Force rating requirement, that can be hard to judge. But again, neither are wrong (in fact, according to the developers, Move is the "best"). My table simply decided Force push falls under Unleash, and it's worked for us. I mention it as food for thought, if someone is inclined to partake.

My issue with Move being a damaging Force push (such as when Padawan Kenobi wrecks mutiple droids with a telekinetic push in Episode 1) is that, by RAW, the target has to strike/be struck by something something. A wall (such as Yoda Force-slapping Senatorial guards) works great. However, how do you figure damage for a basic, not-smashing/slamming-into-an-object Force push? The Discipline roll could work, but then you're ignoring Silhouette. The target's Silhouette? That doesn't work because you do more damage simply because an opponent is larger.

Again, it's no biggie and the Force rules are made to be springboards to narrating an awesome, pivotal and mysterious aspect of Star Wars. Doing otherwise and locking them in ironclad chains of rule would be, in my opinion, a massive disservice.

As an example, a dark sider used Influence on an NPC, causing the NPC's memory of their encounter to be fragmented. A PC needed said NPC to remember key information (as well as wanted the rather distressed NPC to regain her full memory), so we decided that the player would make a Discipline vs Discipline check (modified in the PC's favor with boost dice, for both time passed and because they were making physical, meditative contact with the affected NPC).

I also had her roll her Force dice (4) and decide how light pips would be allocated. The player was successful, the NPC regained her memory and crucial information was attained. 'Twas awesome and the player very much enjoyed being so creative with her Force powers.

Excellent this means as well that it might become impossible to hit small fighters pilot by star fighter aces with bigger ships and a few other things when you bring enough stuff to raise the difficulty.

Yeah, I would probably also include the rules from space combat of "If the target silhouette is smaller than the attacking silhouette, it's even harder to hit." Thus, trying to hit a Sil 3 ship with a Sil 8 ship would be even more difficult than just the Discipline check alone, as they're just so small and nimble. Like trying to hit a bug in flight with a bowling ball.

Nah still very broken, I mean yes it's a good chunk of exp but a character would need one force tree with 1 Force rating talents to toss a star destroyer from extreme range, starts at short, 4 strength upgrades and 3 range upgrades means you're spending 1 point to activate the power, 1 to get to extreme range, and 2 to get to silhouette 8. This means for this to be capable you need 100exp spent into move and just enough exp to get to +1 force rating which isn't that much depending on the tree you take (though you're probably going to also need decently high will power and discipline) but this said even if it was a significant experience cost (which it's not) no other class could do anything near as God like that not only one shots a star destroyer on foot killing thousands on board but also killing whatever it hit (very dark yes but stupidly god like), to add to this get some more force rating and you start to become capable litterally throwing planets.

Still, the player has at this point spent a bare minimum of 170 total XP for a 11% chance** of being able to even attempt this one trick, which is to "hurl" a Star Destroyer from within earshot to slightly outside of earshot. Also, they obviously have to be within planetary engaged range with the ship itself. The player can't even get the Star Destroyer to hit another ship within planetary short range (because that's further than extreme personal range), much less an actual planet! The Star Destroyer moves faster than that in its own turn, so any multiple attempts are going to be completely ineffectual. It's highly unlikely any person inside the ship felt any difference at all, much less got killed.

Even without the cap on difficulty, it's effectively self-limiting. This character is supposed to be well into Knight-level play but is still, for all other intents and purposes, a starting character (including Discipline and Willpower but I assume the hypothetical player min-maxed that). They have spend the bulk of a campaign refining this one trait to the bare minimum of effectiveness, and it's still a crap-shoot if they could even pull it off. Our idiot player has to spend another 70 XP (bare minimum, as a Seer) in order to get another Force die. They're now 240 XP in the hole and basically a newbie. But they can kinda move a single ship around a little bit, so hooray!

So if the GM hasn't pulled this hypothetical kid aside by now and had a little talk about one-trick ponies, maybe they'll be Starkiller one day. Albeit one who doesn't know how to use a lightsaber or climb on stuff or talk to people or do much of anything other than move Star Destroyers slower than they can fly.

^{** Four pips on two Force dice, assuming they're willing to take the conflict/strain/Destiny point, otherwise the chance is 6%. A third Force die admittedly raises it to 70% using Dark pips and 17% without.}

Nah still very broken, I mean yes it's a good chunk of exp but a character would need one force tree with 1 Force rating talents to toss a star destroyer from extreme range, starts at short, 4 strength upgrades and 3 range upgrades means you're spending 1 point to activate the power, 1 to get to extreme range, and 2 to get to silhouette 8. This means for this to be capable you need 100exp spent into move and just enough exp to get to +1 force rating which isn't that much depending on the tree you take (though you're probably going to also need decently high will power and discipline) but this said even if it was a significant experience cost (which it's not) no other class could do anything near as God like that not only one shots a star destroyer on foot killing thousands on board but also killing whatever it hit (very dark yes but stupidly god like), to add to this get some more force rating and you start to become capable litterally throwing planets.

Still, the player has at this point spent a bare minimum of 170 total XP for a 11% chance** of being able to even attempt this one trick, which is to "hurl" a Star Destroyer from within earshot to slightly outside of earshot. Also, they obviously have to be within planetary engaged range with the ship itself. The player can't even get the Star Destroyer to hit another ship within planetary short range (because that's further than extreme personal range), much less an actual planet! The Star Destroyer moves faster than that in its own turn, so any multiple attempts are going to be completely ineffectual. It's highly unlikely any person inside the ship felt any difference at all, much less got killed.

Even without the cap on difficulty, it's effectively self-limiting. This character is supposed to be well into Knight-level play but is still, for all other intents and purposes, a starting character (including Discipline and Willpower but I assume the hypothetical player min-maxed that). They have spend the bulk of a campaign refining this one trait to the bare minimum of effectiveness, and it's still a crap-shoot if they could even pull it off. Our idiot player has to spend another 70 XP (bare minimum, as a Seer) in order to get another Force die. They're now 240 XP in the hole and basically a newbie. But they can kinda move a single ship around a little bit, so hooray!

So if the GM hasn't pulled this hypothetical kid aside by now and had a little talk about one-trick ponies, maybe they'll be Starkiller one day. Albeit one who doesn't know how to use a lightsaber or climb on stuff or talk to people or do much of anything other than move Star Destroyers slower than they can fly.

^{** Four pips on two Force dice, assuming they're willing to take the conflict/strain/Destiny point, otherwise the chance is 6%. A third Force die admittedly raises it to 70% using Dark pips and 17% without.}

Isn't Force Push covered by Bind? You are momentally stalling your opponent, or moving them back if you activate the control upgrade.

Isn't Force Push covered by Bind? You are momentally stalling your opponent, or moving them back if you activate the control upgrade.

No. Bind is force choke

Alright finally got a look at it and yep it is able to be activated multiples times. Wow that's broken as hell. So effectively someone with Force rating 2 could hypothetically throw the Death Star, think I'm going to house rule with the older version for that.

Yeah, I decided to go with the older stuff and cap it at Sil 4. Or it might get silly when PCs start to get 5+ force dice.

Throwing ATATs around feels awesome. Throwing Star Destroyers around feels like jumping the shark in my opinion. But by RAW, you can.

Of course thowing aroud star destroyers is going to take quite a bit of xp and being pretty close to them. I just don't see it as likely. I don't know anyone who has had enough xp to do so. and i have had quite a bit of XP. I mean you could fly a shuttle up next to one and move it a fraction of the length to do what exactly?