So I have been looking at the 2 attack large base turrets, and it is clear that a) the Contracted Scout, if not under costed, is right on the mark, and b) The Wild Space Fringer and Outer Rim Smuggler are over costed (we knew this before the Scout came out in most ways).

( I seriously cannot find an Outer Rim Smuggler image on its own. Testament to how awful it is. For reference it is PS 1, turret attack 2, Agility 1, Hull 6, Shield 4, with upgrades Crew, Crew, and actions Focus & TL. 27 points.)

Lets look at what the Contracted Scout, at a cost of 25, has over the WSF and ORS.

- Pilot Skill of 3

- Arguably superior dial (better greens, white sloop)

-EPT

-Higher agility and barrel roll (over ORS only)

-Better overall upgrade slots

Now lets look at what the WSF has over the Scout

-Ability to equip Outrider title (which, ironically enough, for the HLC variant, comes in at 12 points- the same cost as the Punishing One title)

-1 extra shield

- Can equip a cannon (probably not even as good as torps +EM on the Scout anyways though)

And finally, what the ORS has over the Scout

-...An extra hull... On 1 less agility...

-.....And, uh... 1 more crew slot..?

So it is pretty clear that there are some cost issues here. Let's look at the Scout first. At a point cost of 25 with an excellent array of upgrade options, it has proven to be a nasty force right off the bat. But is it undercosted? I'm going to say yes, by maybe a point. But, I have also heard that in Wave 9, there will be some additions to the game that should put them handily in check. If this is the truth, I think we should go ahead and use their cost of 25 as an appropriate cost.

Now if we are to believe the Scout is costed appropriately at 25, I believe the WSF is over costed by a whopping 5 points. I would value an extra shield on a 2 agility ship at about 2 points. I believe the Scout's higher PS and EPT alone make up for any ground lost to the WSF due to that shield, and this does not even take into account the Scout's superior upgrade options outside of the EPT. 25 points for a Fringer sounds right to me.

Now what about the ORS? With decent utility with double crew slots saving it from falling further, I would say the ORS is also over costed by 5 points, although I can clearly see an argument for 6. A 5 point cut would put the ORS at a cost of 22, the same cost as a Blue Squadron B-wing. The comparison is an interesting one. The ORS gets 2 more shields, but one less attack die (although in turret form). The Blue has the phenomenal Systems slot to work with as well as barrel roll, the ORS gets the 2 crew combo on a large base. Blue comes in at PS 2, ORS at PS 1.

It's tough to say with that comparison that the blue isn't losing out though. Maybe the ORS should be at 23? Tough call either way.

What do you think? Am I right to think the Fringer and Smuggler are overcosted by 5 points, or am I missing some vital points?

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

I'd probably peg the Fringer at 26 or 27 due to the extra shield and its dial. FFG's made it clear that they value total health in a ship at much higher than 2 points.

ORS probably should be around 23 now. Its only real role in the current game is as a large-based blocker, and the Fringer does that better.

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

To be fair to the JM5Ks though, it really isn't them that is making the Fringer and Smuggler bad as much as it is the Fringer and Smuggler just being... Well... Bad in the first place.

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

To be fair to the JM5Ks though, it really isn't them that is making the Fringer and Smuggler bad as much as it is the Fringer and Smuggler just being... Well... Bad in the first place.

It's all relative, isn't it? We place faith in FFG to consider all ships relative to one another when costing.. I know it's not feasible but in an ideal world all ships would be relevant and useful and, dare I say, competitive?

WSF is 3-5 points, and ORS is 5-7 points.

A better question, though, might be whether they (especially the ORS) ought to exist at all. That is, what role do they fill? What can they do that a unique version of the same ship can't or doesn't? I think that's the real problem driving their non-use: they exist because FFG wanted to provide generic versions, not because generic versions serve a particular purpose or are able to fill a substantial role.

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

To be fair to the JM5Ks though, it really isn't them that is making the Fringer and Smuggler bad as much as it is the Fringer and Smuggler just being... Well... Bad in the first place.

It's all relative, isn't it? We place faith in FFG to consider all ships relative to one another when costing.. I know it's not feasible but in an ideal world all ships would be relevant and useful and, dare I say, competitive?

Which is why discussions like this are important. I don't believe FFG is blind. They are aware that they missed the mark with the ORS and WSF. And discussions like this help make everyone aware by how much. The more we analyze and scrutinize the variances in their products which go on to make the game less enjoyable, the more likely they are to fix what they missed, or at the very least, get it right the next time.

WSF is 3-5 points, and ORS is 5-7 points.

A better question, though, might be whether they (especially the ORS) ought to exist at all. That is, what role do they fill? What can they do that a unique version of the same ship can't or doesn't? I think that's the real problem driving their non-use: they exist because FFG wanted to provide generic versions, not because generic versions serve a particular purpose or are able to fill a substantial role.

I think they could fill a role. It would largely be up to the community to create it for them though. The Fringer can be a top level blocker with a cannon to boot if you want some fire power behind your blocker. Not particularly exciting, but it's something. The ORS can be a semi-blocker support ship which safeguards a crew or two vital to your build. We don't have a Palpatine equivalent for Rebels yet, and I am not saying there necessarily should or needs to be one, but if there ever is one, the ORS would be a great platform to carry said crew on if it was costed correctly.

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Deadeye (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

Intelligence Agent (1)

R4 Agromech (2)

VS

YT-2400: · Eaden Vrill (32)

Heavy Laser Cannon (7)

Intelligence Agent (1)

6 points! This upsets me.

Ill take this 40 point ghost build over the 2400 everytime as well.

VCX-100: Lothal Rebel (35)

Autoblaster Turret (2)

Fire Control System (2)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Im not playing superdash so i guess im done with the 2400. Scum did need some other powerful ships and Im glad the new ships dont suck.

Give us another Most Wanted type pack that turns Han and co into smugglers!

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

To be fair to the JM5Ks though, it really isn't them that is making the Fringer and Smuggler bad as much as it is the Fringer and Smuggler just being... Well... Bad in the first place.

Exactly this.

I can't at all be upset with FFG for noticing a previous mistake and then failing to make it again.

The other note about the WSF/JM5K comparison: I'm very glad to see that FFG no longer seems putting a price on access to slots. Whenever they do that, they tend to make the ships worse off. Having to spend points for the chance to spend points is an exercise in frustration.

And that goes for cards that support other cards as well- At even 1 point, I'm not sure we see Guidance Chips getting much play. Similarly: deadeye would have seen some pre-Wave 8 use at zero points. A zero point R2D6 + a zero point Deadeye on a Gray Squadron Pilot might have been a thing pre-TLT. But the 2 point tax made it a bad idea.

And a 29 point Ten Numb? He'd see some play, no doubt.

I think it is important to point out that they have different support. Sure, a Fringer with a Cannon isn't that appealing in Scum. But, it isn't totally pointless in Rebels.

As top tier as the Scouts, no. But not trash either.

Give us "Heroes of the Resistance" a pack with a Poe repainted T-70 and a square dish falcon. Include a Rey pilot card for the falcon and a title for the generic that drops the cost and gives it an illicit slot to make it special.

The T-70 can get a bunch of real named pilots like Nien Numb and other pilots that have been added from the novelizations and comics.

A certain podcast may have brought this up to Alex Davy in a certain 29th episode.

A certain podcast may have brought this up to Alex Davy in a certain 29th episode.

Haha yes, with the classic line from Alex- "Probably both" if I remember correctly, when asked if the Scout was under costed or the Fringer over costed. Probably should have referenced that. Thanks for mentioning it blairbunke.

Give us "Heroes of the Resistance" a pack with a Poe repainted T-70 and a square dish falcon. Include a Rey pilot card for the falcon and a title for the generic that drops the cost and gives it an illicit slot to make it special.

The T-70 can get a bunch of real named pilots like Nien Numb and other pilots that have been added from the novelizations and comics.

I'm actually curious if FFG will go this route, further promoting the films and letting other rebel ships with need of help (namely E-wing) sit and wait while the movies get the needed attention. A re-release of the Falcon would give them an opportunity to get something in there to fix the ORS at least, and more T70 pilots would be welcome.

Don't know that we need another falcon. Probably something similar to the "Most Wanted" for scum where they could add pilots to the existing falcon and possibly more T70 pilots.

A "Join the Resistance" pack with new T70 pilots and Falcon pilots.

T-70 and E-wing in Rebel Vets. Comes with Rogue Squadron title T-65 'fix', 2 integrated astromechs, E-wing fix (e-wing only system that helps torpedoes?), new pilots for Y-wing, YT-1300, Jess Testor and Nien Nunb for T-70. And a Zero point generic Astromech. And new titles for YT-1300 and 2400 that make the generics worth at least something.

it'd be easy to fix old generics. just issue new generics for that ship in a next aces expansion.

for example, issue a new yt-2400 card with updated point/stats, call it something different from wild space fringer. no need to change point cost of old cards.

I don't blame FFG for learning from previous mistakes and for correcting thier errors. We got a big ship where all 4 pilots are usefull. That is impressive and good value for money right there! Well done FFG.

while I don't think it's likely, if the older ships all eventually get really outdated, instead of continuing to release 'fixes' for them in the way of 'aces/veterans' packs, it would be neat if they just release something like a card pack for a few months that have a bunch of redone, re-balanced pilots and upgrade cards from that wave, and then after a few months of that re-release the older ships with the new cards packaged in them, so that newer players wouldn't have to buy both, and veteran players wouldn't have to pick up another one of that ship just to get the newer upgrade cards.

Something like they just do waves 1 and 2, and they adjust point values on ships and pilots that are never used, and fix some cards in there so that you don't need to see the errata for how they are supposed to work.

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

To be fair to the JM5Ks though, it really isn't them that is making the Fringer and Smuggler bad as much as it is the Fringer and Smuggler just being... Well... Bad in the first place.

It's all relative, isn't it? We place faith in FFG to consider all ships relative to one another when costing.. I know it's not feasible but in an ideal world all ships would be relevant and useful and, dare I say, competitive?

So they should have made a 3rd crappy ship to match the two others?

Spot on... Wow.

That's really disheartening and makes me hate JMK5ks even more...

To be fair to the JM5Ks though, it really isn't them that is making the Fringer and Smuggler bad as much as it is the Fringer and Smuggler just being... Well... Bad in the first place.

It's all relative, isn't it? We place faith in FFG to consider all ships relative to one another when costing.. I know it's not feasible but in an ideal world all ships would be relevant and useful and, dare I say, competitive?

so you're happy they made the jm5k, a competitive generic PWT

they considered it relative to the other two large generic 2 dice PWTs that were seeing no play and learned from their mistakes

I really hope FFG is able to come up with some fun, creative way to make both the WSF and ORS viable.

I pretty much agree with the OP in terms of costs. I think the WSF by comparison should be at 25. The dials are arguable, but the point of PS and better upgrades for the CS make up for one more shield on the WSF.

The ORS is... just super terrible by comparison. The agility of the CS is far superior to the Hull of the ORS. It also has +2PS and a whole host of upgrade options. Not to mention the dial of the CS is definitely superior in this case, not even counting Barrel Roll! Comparatively, I could see the ORS as low as 20, though obviously that has its problems. I think 23 would be about right, given the other Rebel ships in the low 20s.

All that said, I still think my earlier idea has merit: just swap all their point costs.

Outer Rim Smuggler - 25 points

Wild Space Fringer - 27 points

Contracted Scout - 30 points

there is no earthly reason for the poor scout to cost 30 (or for the WSF to remain the same price)

Heh I didn't realize that even with shield upgrade it is still less than WSF with a higher pilot skill too.

However the ORS and more importantly the WSF high cost can be easily explained. Back in Wave 4 there was a big fuss over PWT ships and how it robbed arc dodgers of their one advantage. So in order to keep PWTs in check their initial point cost was set at a premium (intentionally over-costed) in order to balance it out against the glass cannons. For the price of 2-3 ships worth of points you will get 1 ships worth of firepower but in any direction.

Well after Wave 6 and the point fortress fat turret meta FFG finally hit the large ships with the nerf bat. Now large ship PWTs were on par with all other ships as they essentially count as two ships both in point cost and MOV. With that fix the premium point cost of PWTs was no longer necessary (at least for 2 firepower).