Yes, that's all Mouse Affair

the big brother is watching us!

sometimes it seems it looks exactly like this xD

Perhaps not irrational, but certainly misguided, IMO. In my experience, people who buy online put in one big order a wave and then also buy at the LGS whenever there is some impulse idea they wanna try.

In any case, most LGS's order the kits because the players want them and will pay for them with event entrance fees. Some places are exceptions and do more for their players (aka Pasttimes in Niles, a Chicago suburb).

All I am saying is this policy change is going to screw the player base, who should be the last person FFG wants to harm.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

...Holy **** the amount of misinformation and childish entitlement in these posts is staggering..

First of all, a coalition of LGS owners formed and petitioned FFG to do this because your penny pinching was seriously effecting their livelyhood and their stores are what carry this game. Disney had nothing to do with it and in the end neither they or FFG make any more money this way except in that if the LGSs go under or decide to boycott like they threatened the game will instantly tank. And I'm sorry but you being able to pay a couple dollars less on a toy is not more important then store owners being able to pay their bills.

The game will not tank. PLENTY of places have NO FLGS. They never have and they never will. And guess what? People play games there. The internet does EXACTLY what it should. It connects them and lets them get the materials and supplies they want. Then Asmodee hurts these people who have NO access and spoiled people like you who do have somewhere to go applaud them getting screwed. This is bad for some people. And narrow minded selfish people would rather cheer it then recognize in today's age we live in a global market that has the internet to get people what they need rather than indiscriminately harm them.

Oh grow up, its a couple dollars more for a toy not fifty grand for a life saving medicine. The MSRP is the same all FFG did was limit online stores ability to undercut because they don't have to pay rent or a workforce. You can still buy from the same place you always did you just now have to actually pay closer to full price like the rest of us. If anything the onlines were guilty of price gouging using their lack of overhead to beat out retail get off your highhorse and suck it up.

Wow. Seems like the market has spoken. Too bad some flat earthers can't seem to get that. CSI and MM both have b&m stores where folks play.

Also, one could posit that someone who refuses to understand free-markets, yet tries to run a business, has some growing up to do. It's not the player's job to keep your doors open. It's your job to provide a service to gamers that they want to pay for. If you can't then someone who can gets the money. Pretty basic.

If what you say is true, that a 'coalition of game stores' threatened boycott and changed FFG/Asmodee policy (which I find exceedingly difficult to believe), then we are in worse shape than I thought. How hypocritical is it to say that a couple dollars more is entitlement so grow up, but a game store that says you have to buy it at the price and place they want isn't entitlement?

My money matters to me. If you want it, give me the best deal. If you can't, good luck in keeping your doors open. Capitalism and a Free Market equal competition. Compete or go under.

First of all there is a difference between paying a couple dollars more on a luxury item and having something eat in to your livelihood. The minor difference for you adds up to thousands of dollars of lost revinue if enough people choose to go that route. If I have to explain that to you then there is no hope of you understanding any of this... or you are just an ass. Second coalitions are how small businesses compete with corporate superstores which a global presence because it allows them to have negotiating leverage with their suppliers and ensure fair treatment. Its the same practice that lead to most of the workers rights reforms of the early twentieth century. You can stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want but LGS are the cornerstone of the tabletop gaming market because in addition to selling the products they also are the primary source of advertising for them and account for most of the new players. Without them the industry would fall apart..

The problem is that consumer perception of inflated prices at brick-and-mortar stores was driving customers away from those stores and to the heavily discounted online retailers for their purchases. That's a problem because no one demos the game online at Coolstuffinc. No one wanders by a game of X-wing being played at Miniature Market and asks questions about it. Amazon.com does not host any X-wing Organized Play events.

If you ordered online but didn't play at an FLGS, that really sucks and I'm sorry.

You also need to add Target and Barnes and Noble to that list. Target never runs demos. Barnes and Nobles has traditionally never run demos. But these stores also serve to pull people in, including myself. I saw the game at Target, then did my research on boardgamegeek.com, and checked out the prices online. I may be in the minority, but I spent >$1000 on the game through MM and CSI over the course of a few years, never having ever set foot in a LGS in my entire life .

Eventually I started playing competitively, so now I show up to my FLGS on their twice-a-month tournament nights ($5 entry fee), and on weekend tournaments at various stores' Store Championships and seasonal kits (typically a $10 - $15 entry fee). I get enough store credit from usually placing at these tournaments, that I pay for ships entirely out of store credit. So the price hike through MM/CSI hasn't directly affected me since I don't need to buy there anymore anyway, but most people are not so fortunate.

But the increase in price for you is, over the long term, about keeping FFG in business by keeping the doors open at those stores. FFG didn't make this move out of charity, but out of concern for their own long-term health.

That may all be true, but it is ALSO true that AsmodeeNA / FFG is engaging in vertical price fixing. Prior to 1977, this behavior was "per se" illegal, meaning it would be automatically illegal, regardless of how the company attempted to justify it.

Was the company doing it to improve their profit margins?

That was illegal.

Was the company doing it to preserve the long term health of their business?

That was still illegal.

Was the company doing it to prevent needing to lay off workers?

That was still illegal.

Was the company doing it to prevent going bankrupt?

That was still illegal.

Was the company doing it to help a little old lady across the street?

That was still illegal.

There's a pattern here: it would always be illegal. Prior to 1977, FFG would be automatically violating the law. No ifs, and, ors, or buts about it. Even if the entire LGS industry would have been put out of business without price fixing (which is unlikely even in today's internet age), FFG would still be acting unlawfully with their behavior if it was prior to 1977 .

So what has changed? IANAL, but basically, vertical price fixing can still be considered illegal, but the court must weigh the economic cost of the price fixing versus the economic benefit of the price fixing. AsmodeeNA is behaving monopolistically and is likely violating anti-trust laws. It is still possible that they could get taken to court over this, and lose, although given the relatively small size of the industry, it is unlikely that a lawyer would go after them for this. FFG isn't stupid, in order to make the merger between FFG and Asmodee financially viable, the plan all along was to exert monopolistic practices to increase their profit margins at the expense of the consumer, distributors, and local game stores. Therefore, Asmodee/FFG's hedge against getting taken to court and losing is to establish as strong a perception as possible that vertical price fixing is in the best economic interest of the industry . That's it.

This is 100% about improving profit margins through financial engineering, and then spinning it with the PR droids to mitigate their legal risk. There is certainly some merit to their argument, but some people such as myself view their justification as having zero credibility, and therefore is largely meaningless. We are living in an era where CEOs make massively more than the employees that work for them, because the law is rigged in their favor. FFG is no exception.

This is not about FFG single-handedly acting as a white knight to sustain a dying business model.

This is not about FFG treating their employees better.

This is not even about getting better long term sales growth.

This is about maximizing shareholder value at the expense of everyone else. Crony capitalism devolving into monopolies is the inevitable conclusion of a growing industry that is consolidating into fewer companies, in an environment where nearly all of the economic growth goes to the 0.1%.

To all the defenders of FFG's new price fixing policies, feel free to keep defending them. I don't really care. There are a lot of serfs arguing for the benefits of the feudal system. What am I going to do about it personally? Probably not much. As long as I continue to play the game competitively (another discussion entirely), then I'll just keep getting ships for free from my store credit. If not, then I'll probably just slow down my purchases instead.

YES to all this.

Especially this " This is about maximizing shareholder value at the expense of everyone else"

Nothing heroic about Asmodee at all. Folks on here arguing how great Asmodee is for doing this are either working for Asmodee or just not smart enough to actually understand the situation.

And yet, the FLGS where I play is excited about this because it helps them no matter what Asmodee's motives are.

If you have an FLGS, please shop there.

If you don't have an FLGS, it may be because of the previous pricing structure that made it impossible for an LGS to sell at competitive prices. This new structure should (hopefully) lead to more LGS.

If your LGS isn't F enough, buy some stuff and be kind and hopefully they will get some F to go with their L.

If you live in an area where no GS is L, I'm sorry but you are SOL.

edit: misplaced parenthesis

If you have a Friendly Local Wagonwheel Dealer, please shop there.

If you don't have a FLWD, it may be because of the new fangled rubber tires making it impossible for a LWD to sell at competitive prices. This new structure should (hopefully) lead to more LWDs.

If your LWD isn't F enough, buy some stuff (like whips and horeshoes) and be kind and hopefully the rubber tires are a fad.

If you live in an area that has paved roads, thank your fellow man for buying an auto mobile, but you're still screwed.

edit: misplaced anachronisms

Until you can play X Wing on the Cool Stuff Inc website this remain the moronic logical fallacy we can all see it for.

Check their locations. I bet they have something going on there.

http://www.coolstuffgames.com/#

Vertical price fixing has a clear legal definition. This is not it. It collusion between DIFFERENT parts of the manufacture, seller, distributor chain. This is just the seller setting different margins. There is no collusion.

I thought someone above said it was a group of local stores who argued with FFG they should do the price fixing, so if that's true it was between different parts of the chain

Interesting. Is there evidence for this?

I guess if you file a lawsuit and file for a subpoena you can find out : )

So no than.

Yes, that's all Mouse Affair

the big brother is watching us!

sometimes it seems it looks exactly like this xD

Perhaps not irrational, but certainly misguided, IMO. In my experience, people who buy online put in one big order a wave and then also buy at the LGS whenever there is some impulse idea they wanna try.

In any case, most LGS's order the kits because the players want them and will pay for them with event entrance fees. Some places are exceptions and do more for their players (aka Pasttimes in Niles, a Chicago suburb).

All I am saying is this policy change is going to screw the player base, who should be the last person FFG wants to harm.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

...Holy **** the amount of misinformation and childish entitlement in these posts is staggering..

First of all, a coalition of LGS owners formed and petitioned FFG to do this because your penny pinching was seriously effecting their livelyhood and their stores are what carry this game. Disney had nothing to do with it and in the end neither they or FFG make any more money this way except in that if the LGSs go under or decide to boycott like they threatened the game will instantly tank. And I'm sorry but you being able to pay a couple dollars less on a toy is not more important then store owners being able to pay their bills.

The game will not tank. PLENTY of places have NO FLGS. They never have and they never will. And guess what? People play games there. The internet does EXACTLY what it should. It connects them and lets them get the materials and supplies they want. Then Asmodee hurts these people who have NO access and spoiled people like you who do have somewhere to go applaud them getting screwed. This is bad for some people. And narrow minded selfish people would rather cheer it then recognize in today's age we live in a global market that has the internet to get people what they need rather than indiscriminately harm them.

Oh grow up, its a couple dollars more for a toy not fifty grand for a life saving medicine. The MSRP is the same all FFG did was limit online stores ability to undercut because they don't have to pay rent or a workforce. You can still buy from the same place you always did you just now have to actually pay closer to full price like the rest of us. If anything the onlines were guilty of price gouging using their lack of overhead to beat out retail get off your highhorse and suck it up.

Wow. Seems like the market has spoken. Too bad some flat earthers can't seem to get that. CSI and MM both have b&m stores where folks play.

Also, one could posit that someone who refuses to understand free-markets, yet tries to run a business, has some growing up to do. It's not the player's job to keep your doors open. It's your job to provide a service to gamers that they want to pay for. If you can't then someone who can gets the money. Pretty basic.

If what you say is true, that a 'coalition of game stores' threatened boycott and changed FFG/Asmodee policy (which I find exceedingly difficult to believe), then we are in worse shape than I thought. How hypocritical is it to say that a couple dollars more is entitlement so grow up, but a game store that says you have to buy it at the price and place they want isn't entitlement?

My money matters to me. If you want it, give me the best deal. If you can't, good luck in keeping your doors open. Capitalism and a Free Market equal competition. Compete or go under.

First of all there is a difference between paying a couple dollars more on a luxury item and having something eat in to your livelihood. The minor difference for you adds up to thousands of dollars of lost revinue if enough people choose to go that route. If I have to explain that to you then there is no hope of you understanding any of this... or you are just an ass. Second coalitions are how small businesses compete with corporate superstores which a global presence because it allows them to have negotiating leverage with their suppliers and ensure fair treatment. Its the same practice that lead to most of the workers rights reforms of the early twentieth century. You can stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want but LGS are the cornerstone of the tabletop gaming market because in addition to selling the products they also are the primary source of advertising for them and account for most of the new players. Without them the industry would fall apart..

Way to keep it civil.

Let me bottom line reality for you. If you are losing thousands of dollars to an online game shop, look in the mirror and not at the customer. If you can't compete, find a line of work you can compete in. FLGS are an outdated model and need to change or disappear. Head in the sand indeed.

I would like some evidence that local stores are struggling competing with online sales (and I mean struggling, not merely losing some profit to competition). nobody has presented any hard data supporting this. for example, small gaming stores here are popping out all the time and hosting x-wing tournaments even though most of the players travels to those small stores only for the tournaments because they are too far for regular play and we have closer local stores we go to for casual night. since the local pool of players is small, I doubt many of the players actually buy lots of stuff from there (even if they buy only at local stores they'd buy it at their usual local store).

so this tells me those stores are hosting x-wing games because they make money from the tournament itself . I mean think about it, if 30 people pay $10 each, that's $300. even if they pay $200 for the kits and the store credit, they are still in profit. they don't pay extra rent or extra salary to the employee, if the store is open rent and salary had to be paid anyway. also consider $100 in store credit does not equal $100 expense, but less than that. for example, saying that they paid $40 for those items, they get $40 expenses and $60 profit, so overall even store credit can give you some profit.

my conclusion, absent any proof to the contrary, is that local stores make a profit on x-wing, even if competing with online prices, thanks to the added value of hosting events. discriminating against online stores can increase profit to the local stores, even if they were not struggling, of course, and that is one reason, I think, of this price fixing.

also, to those that think we are excessively complaining, well call us skeptics. one step in one direction often is just a prelude to another. maybe asmodee wants to shift the strategy away (or partially away) from an affordable miniature game to 1. first lock players as much as possible into purchasing at retail prices at local stores, then 2. increase those prices more and more till you go towards a GW pricing structure with a more expensive hobby.

EDIT Not worth it.

If you have an FLGS, please shop there.

If you don't have an FLGS, it may be because of the previous pricing structure that made it impossible for an LGS to sell at competitive prices. This new structure should (hopefully) lead to more LGS.

If your LGS isn't F enough, buy some stuff and be kind and hopefully they will get some F to go with their L.

If you live in an area where no GS is L, I'm sorry but you are SOL.

edit: misplaced parenthesis

If you have a Friendly Local Wagonwheel Dealer, please shop there.

If you don't have a FLWD, it may be because of the new fangled rubber tires making it impossible for a LWD to sell at competitive prices. This new structure should (hopefully) lead to more LWDs.

If your LWD isn't F enough, buy some stuff (like whips and horeshoes) and be kind and hopefully the rubber tires are a fad.

If you live in an area that has paved roads, thank your fellow man for buying an auto mobile, but you're still screwed.

edit: misplaced anachronisms

Until you can play X Wing on the Cool Stuff Inc website this remain the moronic logical fallacy we can all see it for.

Besides that I can play X-Wing just fine on Steam and vassal, your argument is surprising non functional.

I can play X-Wing just fine at home, I can play X-Wing just fine at a club, I can play X-Wing just fine in a professional game room. I would go even further and say that this fixation that your LGS has to offer space, free one even, for you to play is one of the biggest reason that stores are not profitable.

In the LGS Fanyboy's defense, in America there are no such things as Professional Game Rooms or Game Clubs. It's stores or home, more or less.

Yes, that's all Mouse Affair

the big brother is watching us!

sometimes it seems it looks exactly like this xD

Perhaps not irrational, but certainly misguided, IMO. In my experience, people who buy online put in one big order a wave and then also buy at the LGS whenever there is some impulse idea they wanna try.

In any case, most LGS's order the kits because the players want them and will pay for them with event entrance fees. Some places are exceptions and do more for their players (aka Pasttimes in Niles, a Chicago suburb).

All I am saying is this policy change is going to screw the player base, who should be the last person FFG wants to harm.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

...Holy **** the amount of misinformation and childish entitlement in these posts is staggering..

First of all, a coalition of LGS owners formed and petitioned FFG to do this because your penny pinching was seriously effecting their livelyhood and their stores are what carry this game. Disney had nothing to do with it and in the end neither they or FFG make any more money this way except in that if the LGSs go under or decide to boycott like they threatened the game will instantly tank. And I'm sorry but you being able to pay a couple dollars less on a toy is not more important then store owners being able to pay their bills.

The game will not tank. PLENTY of places have NO FLGS. They never have and they never will. And guess what? People play games there. The internet does EXACTLY what it should. It connects them and lets them get the materials and supplies they want. Then Asmodee hurts these people who have NO access and spoiled people like you who do have somewhere to go applaud them getting screwed. This is bad for some people. And narrow minded selfish people would rather cheer it then recognize in today's age we live in a global market that has the internet to get people what they need rather than indiscriminately harm them.

Oh grow up, its a couple dollars more for a toy not fifty grand for a life saving medicine. The MSRP is the same all FFG did was limit online stores ability to undercut because they don't have to pay rent or a workforce. You can still buy from the same place you always did you just now have to actually pay closer to full price like the rest of us. If anything the onlines were guilty of price gouging using their lack of overhead to beat out retail get off your highhorse and suck it up.

Wow. Seems like the market has spoken. Too bad some flat earthers can't seem to get that. CSI and MM both have b&m stores where folks play.

Also, one could posit that someone who refuses to understand free-markets, yet tries to run a business, has some growing up to do. It's not the player's job to keep your doors open. It's your job to provide a service to gamers that they want to pay for. If you can't then someone who can gets the money. Pretty basic.

If what you say is true, that a 'coalition of game stores' threatened boycott and changed FFG/Asmodee policy (which I find exceedingly difficult to believe), then we are in worse shape than I thought. How hypocritical is it to say that a couple dollars more is entitlement so grow up, but a game store that says you have to buy it at the price and place they want isn't entitlement?

My money matters to me. If you want it, give me the best deal. If you can't, good luck in keeping your doors open. Capitalism and a Free Market equal competition. Compete or go under.

First of all there is a difference between paying a couple dollars more on a luxury item and having something eat in to your livelihood. The minor difference for you adds up to thousands of dollars of lost revinue if enough people choose to go that route. If I have to explain that to you then there is no hope of you understanding any of this... or you are just an ass. Second coalitions are how small businesses compete with corporate superstores which a global presence because it allows them to have negotiating leverage with their suppliers and ensure fair treatment. Its the same practice that lead to most of the workers rights reforms of the early twentieth century. You can stick your head in the sand and deny it all you want but LGS are the cornerstone of the tabletop gaming market because in addition to selling the products they also are the primary source of advertising for them and account for most of the new players. Without them the industry would fall apart..

Way to keep it civil.

Let me bottom line reality for you. If you are losing thousands of dollars to an online game shop, look in the mirror and not at the customer. If you can't compete, find a line of work you can compete in. FLGS are an outdated model and need to change or disappear. Head in the sand indeed.

... I'm sorry but its hard to remain civil with someone who is willing to throw hundreds of people's livelihoods under the bus to save a few dollars on a plastic toy. And that's ignoring your complete ignorance with regards to the tabletop industry and how it literally could not exist without LGSs. Forget the sand its a wonder you can breath with all the methane you must be inhaling with your head so deep in your own colon.

Screw it......

Clearly these guy who think the LGS is some shrine that must be prayed at feel this way:

If you have an FLGS, please shop there.

If you don't have an FLGS, it may be because of the previous pricing structure that made it impossible for an LGS to sell at competitive prices. This new structure should (hopefully) lead to more LGS.

If your LGS isn't F enough, buy some stuff and be kind and hopefully they will get some F to go with their L.

If you live in an area where no GS is L, I'm sorry but you are SOL.

edit: misplaced parenthesis

If you have a Friendly Local Wagonwheel Dealer, please shop there.

If you don't have a FLWD, it may be because of the new fangled rubber tires making it impossible for a LWD to sell at competitive prices. This new structure should (hopefully) lead to more LWDs.

If your LWD isn't F enough, buy some stuff (like whips and horeshoes) and be kind and hopefully the rubber tires are a fad.

If you live in an area that has paved roads, thank your fellow man for buying an auto mobile, but you're still screwed.

edit: misplaced anachronisms

Until you can play X Wing on the Cool Stuff Inc website this remain the moronic logical fallacy we can all see it for.

Besides that I can play X-Wing just fine on Steam and vassal, your argument is surprising non functional.

I can play X-Wing just fine at home, I can play X-Wing just fine at a club, I can play X-Wing just fine in a professional game room. I would go even further and say that this fixation that your LGS has to offer space, free one even, for you to play is one of the biggest reason that stores are not profitable.

You and he are basically saying that LGSs are obsolete because of the online market and the idea that they should be able to compete with discount online retailers is backwards and outdated.

Keep me out of that, I am not saying absoldete, I am buying plenty of stuff on most of my FLGS. And afaik my FLGSs pay same prices and buy from the distributor as the online stores.This whole issue here is a Asmodée NA issue.

What I am saying is that a fixation on LGSs as only possible way to play the game is irrational. There are so many different models which work just fine, some with Business models like gaming cafes and some non-profit like public gaming rooms or good old clubs.

What is as well really odd is that expectation that FLGS offer space to play. That sounds like something that costs a lot money with only little benefits. Space is not free, and this space could be either used for shelf space or not be there at all, because a smaller store is a store with lower operating costs or a better location.

EDIT Not worth it.

I'm rapidly coming to the same conclusion.

SEA,

Maybe it got lost in the shuffle, but again, in the USA that's not really a thing. No one will pay for space. It's just not something we generally support.

Vertical price fixing has a clear legal definition. This is not it. It collusion between DIFFERENT parts of the manufacture, seller, distributor chain. This is just the seller setting different margins. There is no collusion.

You may be confusing vertical price fixing with horizontal. Horizontal price fixing typically requires collusion because the actors in the system would otherwise behave differently.

Vertical price distribution doesn't require collusion, as is in many cases the manufacturer is simply mandating terms. The rest of the distribution chain and further downstream has no choice but to either accept the terms, decline the terms, or take the manufacturer to court. There is no collusion. Vertical price fixing is much more effective when the manufacturer has a monopoly.

And why is "vertical price fixing" no longer per se illegal? I'll let Justice Kennedy have the floor:

The rule [of reason] distinguishes between restraints with anticompetitive effect that are harmful to the consumer and those with procompetitive effect that are in the consumer’s best interest...

A single manufacturer’s use of vertical price restraints tends to eliminate intrabrand price competition; this in turn encourages retailers to invest in services or promotional efforts that aid the manufacturer’s position as against rival manufacturers. Resale price maintenance may also give consumers more options to choose among low-price, low-service brands; high-price, high-service brands; and brands falling in between. Absent vertical price restraints, retail services that enhance interbrand competition might be underprovided because discounting retailers can free ride on retailers who furnish services and then capture some of the demand those services generate.

Thanks for the quote, it's informative. I don't totally disagree with it, and as I said, FFG's case certainly has some merit. It is certainly the argument that AsmodeeNA would make if it ever went to court. (Which is extraordinarily unlikely.)

However, you'll forgive me if I don't take FFG at their word. Their employees are already overworked and underpaid. If they don't even treat their own employees well, then I'm hesitant to believe that they would do anything "for the betterment of the LGS", especially when the first thing they did with the new pricing policy was to increase their margins by cutting directly into the profits of the LGS...

One could also argue that the prevalence of deep online discounts means that the boardgame boom is a bubble, ready to burst. The online shops are a good portion of FFG's business, sure. But, I would doubt it is the majority of it. What happens when the vast majority of shops that buy from FFG refuses to buy the premium boardgames, like Rebellion, when they can't sell them, because they can't afford to discount them like the online shops? When the discounts become the "expected price"?

Yes, there is a short term monetary gain for Asmodee. But, I do think they are thinking long term here.

This is actually the really interesting part... the board gaming business has experienced huge growth in the last decade. There is an extremely strong argument that this growth is being driven by:

• mass-market Board Games being more mainstream (Settlers of Catan, Ticket to Ride, etc), and being available in big retail stores like Target
• online user reviews from sites like boardgamegeek.com, and youtube videos increase product awareness

• the availability of lower online prices.

... but this growth is NOT being fueled by the LGS. The type of games that are driving growth in the industry are by and large not played in the LGS by the vast majority of consumers. FFG's games are more typically LGS-centric than the more "casual" popular mass-market games, and they are riding a rising tide that lifts all boats.

Let me bottom line reality for you. If you are losing thousands of dollars to an online game shop, look in the mirror and not at the customer. If you can't compete, find a line of work you can compete in. FLGS are an outdated model and need to change or disappear. Head in the sand indeed.

Sounds legit. Gaming stores in rural areas are as obsolete as the small towns they are in. And there is no change to that, they just need to disappear. The small towns I mean, because what is the point of having them?

In large urban areas at the other hand those gaming stores seem to thrive, when the amount of potential customers is 7 digit it easy to keep a profitable friendy local gaming store or several for that matter, and your biggest concern becomes ******* FFG and their inability to ship products to you, because you sell them faster than they can make them. Anyone as anecdotal evidence against this? What are those "unlucky" areas without FLGS? Big cities or rat holes in the middle of nowhere like Detroit?

In the LGS Fanyboy's defense, in America there are no such things as Professional Game Rooms or Game Clubs. It's stores or home, more or less.

I am a LGS fanboy and still what the **** is wrong with america.

Thought there are clubs. Actually clubs that are better than the my local X-Wing club. So that concept can not be that foreign for you guys.

Professional Clubs like this New Yorker one:

https://www.facebook.com/NuBrandGaming/posts/478448669023881

http://www.nubrandgaming.com/

Store combined with a $30/month membership, locker included, and I totally would join such a club, though we will not get something like this because our own club X-Wing clubs are a lot cheaper in price and somewhat cheaper in their equipment as well. Instead of custom tables its some MDF with playmates, instead of windows with view its cellars with decent lighting so save some euros on the rent. Every square meter cost money after all and miniature games want to use a decent amount of square meter, especially if you bring a larger group together.

EDIT Not worth it.

I'm rapidly coming to the same conclusion.

I feel you.

Between a business degree and 25 years of retail experience (most of it in the comic and gaming industry) I have strong opinions on this subject. I've written 3 different posts and deleted them before posting.

It'll be fun to necro this thread a few years down the road and point out how this decision didn't kill the game, company, or industry.

EDIT Not worth it.

I'm rapidly coming to the same conclusion.

I feel you.

Between a business degree and 25 years of retail experience (most of it in the comic and gaming industry) I have strong opinions on this subject. I've written 3 different posts and deleted them before posting.

It'll be fun to necro this thread a few years down the road and point out how this decision didn't kill the game, company, or industry.

Now I want a TLDR of your deleted posts. Don't tease first and than walk away

In the LGS Fanyboy's defense, in America there are no such things as Professional Game Rooms or Game Clubs. It's stores or home, more or less.

I am a LGS fanboy and still what the **** is wrong with america.

Thought here are clubs. Actually clubs that are better than the my local X-Wing club. So that concept can not be that foreign for you guys.

Professional Clubs like this New Yorker one:

https://www.facebook.com/NuBrandGaming/posts/478448669023881

http://www.nubrandgaming.com/

Store combined with a $30/month membership, locker included, and I totally would join such a club, though we will not get something like this because our own club X-Wing clubs are a lot cheaper in price and somewhat cheaper in their equipment as well. Instead of custom tables its some MDF with playmates, instead of windows with view its cellars with decent lighting so save some euros on the rent. Every square meter cost money after all and miniature games want to use a decent amount of square meter, especially if you bring a larger group together.

While that "store" looks great, it is RARE. First, tables that nice are extremely rare, most are cobbled together of plywood and 2'x4's. Second, and this is most important, this store exists to solve a different problem. This store exists to combat real estate values driving businesses under and is in no way tied to gaming. That is a fact of life in these crappy real estate markets; it will drive everyone from their property if they cannot pay the taxes.

That is not the problem that most specialty game stores are combating. They are dealing with price competition with online retailers that offer greater stock at lower prices without the crappy retail experience (smelly kids playing magic and condescending Comic Book Guys). Let's face it, those stores will go out of business even if online markets didn't exist, but they do, so that is hastening their demise.

There is a new world order and shopping in person only makes sense for impulse purchases and products you want to hold or inspect prior to purchase (read: cars, clothes, etc). Get with the future or be left in the past.

One could also argue that the prevalence of deep online discounts means that the boardgame boom is a bubble, ready to burst. The online shops are a good portion of FFG's business, sure. But, I would doubt it is the majority of it. What happens when the vast majority of shops that buy from FFG refuses to buy the premium boardgames, like Rebellion, when they can't sell them, because they can't afford to discount them like the online shops? When the discounts become the "expected price"?

Yes, there is a short term monetary gain for Asmodee. But, I do think they are thinking long term here.

This is actually the really interesting part... the board gaming business has experienced huge growth in the last decade. There is an extremely strong argument that this growth is being driven by:

• mass-market Board Games being more mainstream (Settlers of Catan, Ticket to Ride, etc), and being available in big retail stores like Target
• online user reviews from sites like boardgamegeek.com, and youtube videos increase product awareness

• the availability of lower online prices.

... but this growth is NOT being fueled by the LGS. The type of games that are driving growth in the industry are by and large not played in the LGS by the vast majority of consumers. FFG's games are more typically LGS-centric than the more "casual" popular mass-market games, and they are riding a rising tide that lifts all boats.

Settlers and Ticket are definitely the gateways into the hobby. There was a theory that Asmodee bought the NA Catan license in order to make a cheaper, mass audience version. Sort of like Risk. It makes sense to me. Tabletop and Kickstarter are other factors.

I will say, my local Barnes and Noble set up a board game night once a month. I haven't stopped by recently, so I'm not sure how successful it is/was.

No I'm confusing nothing. Look it up.

There is a new world order and shopping in person only makes sense for impulse purchases and products you want to hold or inspect prior to purchase (read: cars, clothes, etc). Get with the future or be left in the past.

Elon Musk is clearly not in agreement with you, as he assumes that people rather order their Tesla online. And I am in total agreement with that. My wife is big on online stores for clothes and my impulse buys are done via amazon since the nineties. Your whole new world order itself is so nineties. Having to make money to pay for real estate was my point why those large, free game areas in american FLGS are puzzling to me. They are liability when those stores try to compete with online stores. Having to pay for selling space is one of the biggest differences from online vs offline.

And ironically at least in my town online + offline stores are the big thing, order online and depending on your schedule fetch it up later in the physical store or your post office box. Guaranteed availability, convenience from online and offline combined. I mean, even GW does that, order online and fetch your new fearsome armies while doing your grocery shopping.

"Honey, have you remembered to go shopping? - Sure, I got toast, tomatoes, bacon, cheddar and some Eldar, so we should be fine for the evening." , sounds like a splendid shopping experience to me. ;-)

I'd rather inspect my models. FFG still has issues with bent lasers.

@Majorjuggler.

Would you please explain how Asmodee is engaging in vertical price fixing? It seems to me that vertical price fixing is fairly narrow in scope and that you are broadening that scope to fit your narrative. It may be that you aren't stretching it as much as I think. So, if you could elaborate some it would be helpful. It may also be that you have read details that support your stance that I'm not aware of.

Sure, IANAL (I am not a lawyer), but there's enough information out there that this seems like a relatively clear cut case. The link here is by someone with actual credentials -- specifically a lawyer who was involved in the original 1977 Supreme Court case that opened the door for legal vertical price.

It is a textbook definition of vertical prize fixing, which since 1977 is no longer automatically illegal , with various aspects of anti-trust law being effectively nullified by the Supreme Court over 30 years. ( Disclaimer, IANAL )

When people think of "price fixing" they usually think of horizontal price fixing. As a fictitious example, if competing retailers have a near-monopoly on iphones, they may collude together and agree to fix the selling price at a certain amount. That would be horizontal price fixing, and isn't what is going on here.

Vertical price fixing generally involves the manufacturer of a product trying to enforce a particular selling price by placing restrictions on the distribution channels. (not a legal definition, see the above link for some background). One example that almost always meets the definition of vertical price fixing is when a company puts geographic restrictions on how a product can be sold. I.e. they will sell the product to different distributors at different prices, and then put restrictions on them so they can't sell in each other's locations, preventing the distributor with the lower cost from eating into the other one's turf.

There's a lot of info out there, and I won't claim to be an expert, but geographic restrictions such as FFG's new reseller agreement are a red flag.

There's also some analysis of the announcement here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/49015/starting-2016-asmodee-will-operate-asmodee-north-a

First I'd like to thank majorjuggler and others who took the time to post in response to my question.

I am not a lawyer either, but it seems to me the previous situation would be a better example of vertical price fixing than the one we find ourselves in now.

If I understand the situation correctly, certain retailers were sold product at the price point of distributors. This allowed them to sell merchandise cheaper than other retailers creating an unfair advantage for them. Weren't all these retailers getting the reduced price in the U.S.? If so this would be favoring one region over another as markets outside of the U.S. couldn't take advantage of the prices as readily as those of us in the U.S. At least that is what I seem to be reading in this thread from our European friends.

It seems like this is an attempt to level the playing field from what it previously was as opposed to an attempt at vertical price fixing. It is possible this will also increase profit margins for FFG. It is also possible that it will only restore dwindling profit margins to their former level. Obviously I'm speculating as I don't have access to the necessary data.

For what it's worth, that is my opinion on the subject based on my admittedly incomplete knowledge of the situation.