Sounds like CM and MM set their original prices at an unsustainable rate. They should have controlled their pricing to account for inflation and market fluctuation. It's costing them customers now.

Thankfully Asmodee realized this is a problem and moved to control the pricing of their product in the future.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Asmodee raised their price to CSI and MM. So CSI and MM had to raise prices. This isn't any fault of CSI or MM to "account for inflation and market fluctuation".

The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer?

No the point is that we want to support our LGS' because they add value to the game. However when online retailers can undercut them by 33% that makes them less competitive and cuts into their profits. Which in the long run means they're more likely to close. Which means we lose out.

Same goes for new products. When I was looking at the TMNT board game people were up in arms that they'd have to pay $100 for it, when similar games goes for $66 on CSI or MM. Because people tend to think that's the correct price rather than what MSRP is.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

No one is screwing the end customer. They are purposefully making a choice about who they wish to sell their products and at what price. This screws no one. It might make people make a choice. It will result in a few outcomes which include the following: players will quit, players will buy the same dollar amount and get less Plastic Crack, players will purchase the same amount of PC and spend more. None of those screw the customer. Moreover, there is the added benefit of supporting stores that introduce new customers to the game.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

Because people on this forum act like getting X-Wing at 33% is an inalienable right.

I think that it bears repeating that there has not been a price hike, there has been a discount reduction.

As someone who has been in the hobby for a long time, I spend money at the stores that I game in. I find it to be common courtesy as they pay the rent, labor, energy etc. for the space that I am using to play. If you game primarily at home, then by all means buy from amazon or whoever else. But if you have one that you frequent, please support your FLGS.

You can get into X Wing for half the cost of one 40K squad.

As someone that has collected many mini games over the decades, X-Wing is insanely affordable.

1) 40K is and for the last 10 years has been retardedly expensive. So much so that it has spawned a Chinese counterfeiting industry.

2) If you call getting one core set (roughly 1/2 the price of one squad) as a valid entry point, well...you get about the same level of utility as you get in one squad of 40K...little to none. You need more ships to really enjoy this game.

3) Raising costs on end customers is not a successful long term strategy. I can't believe I even have people arguing the other side of this...

Perhaps not irrational, but certainly misguided, IMO.

Considering they have data available to them that you don't... I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and say they can form an educated opinion, something you and I can't.

All I am saying is this policy change is going to screw the player base

That's another assumption on your part.

When does something move from the realm of assumption to fact? When I as a player want to place an order for 2 Ghosts and those Ghosts now cost me $50 per as opposed to $35? That $30 difference represents an hour and change of my life. If that's not me getting screwed, I'm not sure that I can put it in terms you would relate to.

An increase in cost of an item DOES NOT definitely equate to the customer getting "screwed."

Sounds like CM and MM set their original prices at an unsustainable rate. They should have controlled their pricing to account for inflation and market fluctuation. It's costing them customers now.

Thankfully Asmodee realized this is a problem and moved to control the pricing of their product in the future.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Asmodee raised their price to CSI and MM. So CSI and MM had to raise prices. This isn't any fault of CSI or MM to "account for inflation and market fluctuation".

Had CM and MM set their prices appropriately they could have absorbed the change. It is their fault.

When does something move from the realm of assumption to fact?

When you can back it up with something like real evidence rather than subjective opinions?

If that's not me getting screwed, I'm not sure that I can put it in terms you would relate to.

That's not you getting screwed, that's you thinking that the product isn't worth the price that's being asked. But if you don't get the difference then I won't bother.

3) Raising costs on end customers is not a successful long term strategy. I can't believe I even have people arguing the other side of this...

So, games cannot survive a true price hike? That very far from the truth.

We are talking about 2-6 dollars per expansion. Yes, it adds up. But, this is also a luxury item.

How is that even an argument?

I can't even comprehend that. Money is money. Money represents hours of my life. Who gives a **** what the category of the expenditure is? Would it be more upsetting if it were raising prices on meds?

I don't get it.....The point is you want to support the LGS as the Manufacturer? Fine. There are better ways to do it then screwing the End Customer.

No one is screwing the end customer. They are purposefully making a choice about who they wish to sell their products and at what price. This screws no one. It might make people make a choice. It will result in a few outcomes which include the following: players will quit, players will buy the same dollar amount and get less Plastic Crack, players will purchase the same amount of PC and spend more. None of those screw the customer. Moreover, there is the added benefit of supporting stores that introduce new customers to the game.

That's crap. "Screwing the customer" is any action that results in a negative outcome for said customer.

So my choices are 1) Quit. 2) Buy less or 3) Buy the same at higher prices. NONE of these are good options for the end user. None of these result in us ending up better off than we were before the wonderful merger took place.

That is what "getting screwed" is.

1) 40K is and for the last 10 years has been retardedly expensive.

Do you actually have a point? Because the point is that 40k is way more expensive then X-Wing.

3) Raising costs on end customers is not a successful long term strategy.

The cost hasn't gone up, the discount has gone down. Myself and many others are paying exactly the same we always had, for those who have to pay more, they have to decide if the reduced discount is worth it or not.

But if this policy makes LGS' stronger, than that can make the game more popular.

That's crap. "Screwing the customer" is any action that results in a negative outcome for said customer.

Anyone who makes a statement that simplistic isn't worth debating. So I'm done.

You can get into X Wing for half the cost of one 40K squad.

As someone that has collected many mini games over the decades, X-Wing is insanely affordable.

1) 40K is and for the last 10 years has been retardedly expensive. So much so that it has spawned a Chinese counterfeiting industry.

2) If you call getting one core set (roughly 1/2 the price of one squad) as a valid entry point, well...you get about the same level of utility as you get in one squad of 40K...little to none. You need more ships to really enjoy this game.

3) Raising costs on end customers is not a successful long term strategy. I can't believe I even have people arguing the other side of this...

For a Tau Army with all the trimming from Forge world and such, the total is about 15k. (also the time spent putting this together and painting it is worth about 25-50 hours of time your a slow painter)

To buy 12 of each small ship, 6 of each large (including aces) and epics, it comes out to be about 6.5K (before the price adjustment it was closure to 5.5K).

Perhaps it's only semantics but...

Prices have not gone up. The discounts on some places have decreased, but the MSRP hasn't changed.

I think it is semantics as the real net effect is that alot of us will buy a helluva lot less FFG product. I love this game but FFG / Asmodee is being stupid. Do their margins increase on sales to the distribution companies like ACD ? Nope...they still make the same.

[ Nope... they still make the same. ]

INCORRECT.

This is old news, but AsmodeeNA has increased the prices that they charge to the distributors along almost all of their product lines. FFG's profit margin is now higher on a per unit basis. The price that they charge to large online sellers like MM/CSI is different than the prices that they charge to the normal FLGS distribution channel, which is different than they charge to large brick and mortar retailers like Target and Barnes and Noble. As best as we can tell, online sellers now pay more for the same product than the LGS distribution channel pays. One reason why FFG now prohibits local sellers from selling online is to prevent the online sellers from paying the lower FLGS distribution cost and then turning around and selling online.

It is a textbook definition of vertical prize fixing, which since 1977 is no longer automatically illegal , with various aspects of anti-trust law being effectively nullified by the Supreme Court over 30 years. ( Disclaimer, IANAL )

MM/CSI operate on ~10% margins, so they still charge less than the LGS who charge full MSRP and operating on ~40% gross margins. It's the amazon sales model where you make up for low margins by selling in high volume, which also reduces overhead.

By the way, your LGS is now paying about 5% more for the same product. The majority of them were already charging MSRP, so instead of passing the cost along to the customer like MM/CSI, they are directly eating their cost increase in their profit margins. Their margins are fat enough that they can afford to eat the loss, but they also pay more than MM/CSI to keep the lights on, pay rent, and pay the store clerk, which all have to get paid after their ~40% gross margin.

FFG isn't stupid. Go back and read the PR announcement for the creation of AsmodeeNA, you'll see that it is (paraphrasing) " not a customer facing company... but one that will increase value ". Translation: we're going to raise prices and get away with it because our brand is strong.

When does something move from the realm of assumption to fact?

When you can back it up with something like real evidence rather than subjective opinions?

If that's not me getting screwed, I'm not sure that I can put it in terms you would relate to.

That's not you getting screwed, that's you thinking that the product isn't worth the price that's being asked. But if you don't get the difference then I won't bother.

Real Evidence? Fine. I'll scan my bank statement next month and send it to you. You can see where I clearly spend less on X-wing Month over Month than I have in the past.

That you are arguing FOR price increases is goofy. Do you own an LGS or something?

I still don't understand the nerve some people show in threads like these. 'Oh, I'm sorry Alex, Frank, and everyone else at FFG that makes this game I love, but F*** you. You're time, experience, and more importantly JOB SECURITY isn't worth me paying msrp on your game.' Is essentially how I read these arguments.

Look I will say this if your going to buy one of each ship, small, large, and epic its only about 800 which is much more affordable then most collectible games and If your only collecting the core set and ships your going to play in a tonry you can get the cost down to under 250 for most lists and factions. X-wing is still very cheap compared to most games.

That's crap. "Screwing the customer" is any action that results in a negative outcome for said customer.

So my choices are 1) Quit. 2) Buy less or 3) Buy the same at higher prices. NONE of these are good options for the end user. None of these result in us ending up better off than we were before the wonderful merger took place.

That is what "getting screwed" is.

Honestly, if you see any immediate negative outcome for the buyer only as "getting screwed" and refuse to look at long term economics and policy, then I understand how you come to that conclusion. That said, it is shortsighted.

If a game cannot increase prices (read decrease discount) EVER, then the end result is the customer no longer having a game. Now, Asmodee, whether right or wrong, believes that this move is good for the longevity of the game. They are not purposefully screwing customers. They are attempting to make the game more profitable which makes it less likely to be Fantasyized into a stupid game without a points system.

Perhaps it's only semantics but...

Prices have not gone up. The discounts on some places have decreased, but the MSRP hasn't changed.

I think it is semantics as the real net effect is that alot of us will buy a helluva lot less FFG product. I love this game but FFG / Asmodee is being stupid. Do their margins increase on sales to the distribution companies like ACD ? Nope...they still make the same.

[ Nope... they still make the same. ]

INCORRECT.

This is old news, but AsmodeeNA has increased the prices that they charge to the distributors along almost all of their product lines. FFG's profit margin is now higher on a per unit basis. The price that they charge to large online sellers like MM/CSI is different than the prices that they charge to the normal FLGS distribution channel, which is different than they charge to large brick and mortar retailers like Target and Barnes and Noble. As best as we can tell, online sellers now pay more for the same product than the LGS distribution channel pays. One reason why FFG now prohibits local sellers from selling online is to prevent the online sellers from paying the lower FLGS distribution cost and then turning around and selling online.

It is a textbook definition of vertical prize fixing, which since 1977 is no longer automatically illegal , with various aspects of anti-trust law being effectively nullified by the Supreme Court over 30 years. (Disclaimer, IANAL)

MM/CSI operate on ~10% margins, so they still charge less than the LGS who charge full MSRP and operating on ~35 - 40% gross margins. It's the amazon sales model where you make up for low margins by selling in high volume, which also reduces overhead.

By the way, your LGS is now paying about 5% more for the same product. The majority of them were already charging MSRP, so instead of passing the cost along to the customer like MM/CSI, they are directly eating the cost in their profit margins.

No this can't be true. It castigates online types who love me and give me discounts out of the goodness of their hearts as bad and tells me that evil, capitalist FLGS owners are not so bad.

When does something move from the realm of assumption to fact?

When you can back it up with something like real evidence rather than subjective opinions?

If that's not me getting screwed, I'm not sure that I can put it in terms you would relate to.

That's not you getting screwed, that's you thinking that the product isn't worth the price that's being asked. But if you don't get the difference then I won't bother.

Real Evidence? Fine. I'll scan my bank statement next month and send it to you. You can see where I clearly spend less on X-wing Month over Month than I have in the past.

That you are arguing FOR price increases is goofy. Do you own an LGS or something?

He is saying that you can spend exactly what you spent before. You may get less, but you can make that choice. It isn't SCREWING you. You have a choice not to buy. They have a choice to make FLGS competitive.

Perhaps it's only semantics but...

Prices have not gone up. The discounts on some places have decreased, but the MSRP hasn't changed.

I think it is semantics as the real net effect is that alot of us will buy a helluva lot less FFG product. I love this game but FFG / Asmodee is being stupid. Do their margins increase on sales to the distribution companies like ACD ? Nope...they still make the same.

[ Nope... they still make the same. ]

INCORRECT.

This is old news, but AsmodeeNA has increased the prices that they charge to the distributors along almost all of their product lines. FFG's profit margin is now higher on a per unit basis. The price that they charge to large online sellers like MM/CSI is different than the prices that they charge to the normal FLGS distribution channel, which is different than they charge to large brick and mortar retailers like Target and Barnes and Noble. As best as we can tell, online sellers now pay more for the same product than the LGS distribution channel pays. One reason why FFG now prohibits local sellers from selling online is to prevent the online sellers from paying the lower FLGS distribution cost and then turning around and selling online.

It is a textbook definition of vertical prize fixing, which since 1977 is no longer automatically illegal , with various aspects of anti-trust law being effectively nullified by the Supreme Court over 30 years. ( Disclaimer, IANAL )

MM/CSI operate on ~10% margins, so they still charge less than the LGS who charge full MSRP and operating on ~35% - 40% gross margins. It's the amazon sales model where you make up for low margins by selling in high volume, which also reduces overhead.

By the way, your LGS is now paying about 5% more for the same product. The majority of them were already charging MSRP, so instead of passing the cost along to the customer like MM/CSI, they are directly eating the cost in their profit margins.

FFG isn't stupid. Go back and read the PR announcement for the creation of AsmodeeNA, you'll see that it is (paraphrasing) " not a customer facing company... but one that will increase value ". Translation: we're going to raise prices and get away with it because our brand is strong.

I appreciate the correction. While I disagree with their assertion that raising prices increases value, it's not going to change because some vocal ****** on the 'net complains on a forum.

Time will prove whether the FFG product offering is in fact strong enough to maintain or increase it's market share. I love X-Wing, but I really think this sucks.

I still don't understand the nerve some people show in threads like these. 'Oh, I'm sorry Alex, Frank, and everyone else at FFG that makes this game I love, but F*** you. You're time, experience, and more importantly JOB SECURITY isn't worth me paying msrp on your game.' Is essentially how I read these arguments.

Ill pay what Im willing to pay and if you can't do business for that amount, see ya. There are plenty of great hobbies out there. I dont have to war game. Im sure Steam will love to have more of my money.

Now, Asmodee, whether right or wrong, believes that this move is good for the longevity of the game.

The mere idea that prices can never go up, is so amazing shortsighted... Words fail me.

But as you point out Asmodee thinks this will make their games stronger in the long run, which means according to their PoV more profitable.

As shocking as this may be to some people, a good company isn't interested in a quick buck, because they know that over the long run they will make a ton more money by offering a good product that people are happy to buy. So they reduced the discount to people who in their opinion aren't doing as much to support these games as other places do.

If they're right, that means the LGS becomes stronger, which in turn makes the community larger, which means more profits.

Again I'll point out that FFG games are much more heavily discounted than other games, most getting less than 10% vs FFGs getting 25-33%. That means X-Wing still has a more attractive discount then Infinity or Flames of War or other games.

When does something move from the realm of assumption to fact?

When you can back it up with something like real evidence rather than subjective opinions?

If that's not me getting screwed, I'm not sure that I can put it in terms you would relate to.

That's not you getting screwed, that's you thinking that the product isn't worth the price that's being asked. But if you don't get the difference then I won't bother.

Real Evidence? Fine. I'll scan my bank statement next month and send it to you. You can see where I clearly spend less on X-wing Month over Month than I have in the past.

That you are arguing FOR price increases is goofy. Do you own an LGS or something?

He is saying that you can spend exactly what you spent before. You may get less, but you can make that choice. It isn't SCREWING you. You have a choice not to buy. They have a choice to make FLGS competitive.

The LGS is not a charity. You can't operate with 1950's business models and expect to compete in a 2016 environment. CSI has brick and mortar stores and they do very well. Anyway, Lunch is over, so I guess I'll go back to working for my 1.5 ships per hour instead of 2....