But banning should be for something so ridiculously overpowered and game-breaking that there's no other recourse. "Everybody uses it" isn't like that.

People aren't arguing for the ban of VI or PTL because they are too powerful, but because they discourage diversity in list building.

Then diversify your list building. You don't need the cards banned to do that.

But banning should be for something so ridiculously overpowered and game-breaking that there's no other recourse. "Everybody uses it" isn't like that.

People aren't arguing for the ban of VI or PTL because they are too powerful, but because they discourage diversity in list building.

Then diversify your list building. You don't need the cards banned to do that.

But why would you ever take something else when there is clearly a superior option? For example- You can run PTL which gives you an increased win chance of 30%, or something else which gives you an increased win chance of 15%. If you are playing competitively, you will never choose something else over PTL because it decreases your chances of winning. With pilots like Soontir, this is almost certainly the case with PTL, even if my numbers here are fictitious. The synergy is one to none. There is not a single other upgrade available to Soontir and other similar pilots that allow for synergy between pilot skill, pilot ability, and maneuver dial at this level.

I don't really want to ban any cards. I do wish there were some cards that were never in the game though.

It's not even that VI or PtL are unbalanced, I think for the price and all they're fine. But they also exert a huge gravity field on the meta and bend things more than most other upgrade cards do.

Wave 4's Phantom Menace wouldn't of been a huge thing if VI hadn't been around.

Ban: Nothing (maybe palp).

Unique: Crack shot.

With VI the only way to beat it is by using either a higher PS pilot or using VI, most often both. Which is again not a very interesting option most times.

Any time that you use a ship that your opponent's VI equipped ship already had a PS that was naturally higher than, you beat VI.

With VI the only way to beat it is by using either a higher PS pilot or using VI, most often both. Which is again not a very interesting option most times.

Any time that you use a ship that your opponent's VI equipped ship already had a PS that was naturally higher than, you beat VI.

Interesting point, and kinda true. You beat them in the sense that they wasted their EPT slot and spent 1pt on essentially nothing, vs. that ship in your list.

The problem is that if we're talking about points, the opportunity cost was only 1pt, which isn't so much "beating them" as a very minor consolation prize. 1 ineffectual point doesn't make or break a match too often.

Maybe since it also takes up the EPT slot, the opportunity cost should instead by treated as 1HP, since Crackshot is the most efficient thing you can do for that same 1pt. That's a slightly bigger comfort.

Ban: Nothing (maybe palp).

Unique: Crack shot.

Heresy on both accounts. Crack Shot is keeping Tie Fighters on the table, The Emperor helps keep Fat Hans off the table. Win-win for the game.

Also I think that PS manipulation is VERY important for the game. At a certain point you need to make conscious decisions about how effective your individual ships and your squad can be if other ships come along with a higher pilot skills. Giving players the options to spend valuable points and EPT slots to modify their pilots accordingly is important to the squad building and decision making process.

Honestly, I think the crime prior to this was that if most people ran Vader with VI, you had to run Vader with VI, and it wasn't much of a decision due to the lack of options.

I honestly think we could use an EPT that had a cost of 3pts (maybe 4pts /shrug) and increased Pilot Skill by 3. Now you have to decide if your Poe wants to spend 0 on adaptability, 1pt on VI, or 3pts on a +3PS bump, and what you decide to do will be based on whether or not your list can afford someone being a higher pilot skill. If you're terrified of your Whisper meeting someone with higher PS, you pay a bigger premium. Then every time you come up against a Crackshot swarm or a set of U-Boats, you've effectively wasted more points and made it increasingly easier for them.

Rock/Paper/Scissors, people. What does your Rock need to spend points on to be competitive vs Paper AND Scissors? Do you make it a bigger Rock to smash Scissors harder, but then bring Scissors as a wingman to counter Paper, or do you use upgrades to help make it more balanced vs multiple types? Figure it out.

Options are good. Reducing options is bad. Banning and limiting cards makes the game worse, not better.

Options are good. Reducing options is bad.

But when a upgrade is too good, it does exactly that, reduces options. There was no decision making process involved in putting VI on Whisper for example, or putting on Han as a counter for Whisper.

In that case VI didn't increase the options, it reduced it to one. If you played Whisper or Han in the wave 4 meta, VI was your only option.

Options are good. Reducing options is bad.

In that case VI didn't increase the options, it reduced it to one. If you played Whisper or Han in the wave 4 meta, VI was your only option.

Which to me, is an argument for a 3pt upgrade that gives +3PS and a 5pt EPT that grants +4PS. Using your Wave 4 example, this set of options would have created an arms race between those ship types that would have cost both lists another 4pts and set the stage for cheap generics to potentially get into the meta by being more efficient, relative to the increasingly more expensive PS Arms-Racers.

Decide how much you want to invest in being the highest PS ship on the table. When Aces are all overspending points to try and out-ace each other, the efficiency of generics increases, right?

Which to me, is an argument for a 3pt upgrade that gives +3PS and a 5pt EPT that grants +4PS.

Perhaps, but that's not what existed. Again I'm not saying those upgrades should be removed from the game, but rather that I think the game may of been better off without them in the first place.

Which to me, is an argument for a 3pt upgrade that gives +3PS and a 5pt EPT that grants +4PS.

Perhaps, but that's not what existed. Again I'm not saying those upgrades should be removed from the game, but rather that I think the game may of been better off without them in the first place.

I hear you, chief. I just respectfully disagree. I think that Adaptability and VI are great for the game and that their only crime might be that they exist in a pool of too few options and come at too low an opportunity cost. I think that if we have more options like this, (3pts for +PS3 & 5pts for +PS4) then the game opens up wider, because the predictability of match-ups goes out the window. When you have no idea what PS Jake Farrel, Xizor, Vader or Poe might come in at, rather then knowing exactly what PS those ships cap out at, you have to make real decisions about what your squad can do.

The results is that a 35pt PS11 Vader no longer auto-trumps Poe and because of that, we see an increased variety all the way around. PS13 Vader might then become the top of the PS-heap, but the opportunity cost increases and the efficiency decreases against every opponent who wasn't trying to compete on the max-AceWing level.

I would kill off PtL.

It is so good, it limits competitive list building, and from that game design.

Nothing banned, but I think I would make Engine Upgrade "Small Ship Only."

Either that or somehow give the large ship boost the barrel roll treatment.

Nobody wants to ban Autothruster? Strange ^^

I would kill off PtL.
It is so good, it limits competitive list building, and from that game design.

You want to kill the greatest imperial pilot?

Having no PTL in the game would make the shittier elite upgrades shine.

Nobody would use Interceptors. Would this make the game better?

At least it would make Vader better.

Nobody wants to ban Autothruster? Strange ^^

I would kill off PtL.

It is so good, it limits competitive list building, and from that game design.

You want to kill the greatest imperial pilot?

Having no PTL in the game would make the shittier elite upgrades shine.

Nobody would use Interceptors. Would this make the game better?

At least it would make Vader better.

It would have been nice if the game didn't get so saturated with ******* turrets to the point where a hard counter autoinclude needed to be introduced.

Would be cool if it was actually possible to damage things at range 3 again.

Yes we want to kill off the best Imperial pilot. Don't kid yourself, Soontir is the only Interceptor that ever sees play. Meta would open up quite a lot if Soontir didn't exist. If PtL didn't exist, it would actually be a /buff/ to 5x Autothruster Alpha because now my 5 Interceptors wouldn't have to deal with Soontir.

God forbid every Imperial list not just be a Fel and 65 points of something else.

Soontir with Squad Leader, Experimental Interface, Autothrusters. Gasp that might actually be balanced and require skill to utilize effectively, can't have that.

I don't want to see ban's or reprints until it becomes absolutely necessary.

It's admitting you have deeply flawed game design and see no course but to go in reverse. That's either a lack of creative thinking by the design team, or a VERY serious problem.

Continuing to adjust relative balance issues through expanding the game is a far better plan--and FFG is clearly on that path. You can slip in alternatives to power cards or, if necessary, introduce a direct counter to punch it in the mouth.

Wouldn't you rather have a card to really punish a PtL or VI ship than have that ship collecting dust somewhere in your opponent's closet?

Anyway, I know this thread is hypothetical so there's no harm in speculating, but I just have trouble thinking about balance that way. But since this IS hypothetical, let's not lose our heads over this question.

honestly, banning any card really won't do anything

the game is sadly filled with lots of junk, and banning one card will only decrease the pool of non-junk you get to play with

for example, banning PTL gets rid of soonts and the inquisitor. This means you'll see a whole lot of Vader palp aces. huzzah?

similarly, screw over jumpmasters and we go back to wave 7 (i.e, trade jumpmasters for TLT Ys)

there's just not a lot in the game on the level of the palp ace, jumpmaster, crackswarm archetype as of yet, give FFG some more time to work (especially on the X)

the game now is, at least, far superior to waves 1-3 (swarm only) waves 4-5 (hope of like phantom or han) and wave 6 (2-ship or bust) and we're seeing some pretty exciting lists pop up occasionally at regionals

Nobody wants to ban Autothruster? Strange ^^

I would kill off PtL.

It is so good, it limits competitive list building, and from that game design.

You want to kill the greatest imperial pilot?

Having no PTL in the game would make the shittier elite upgrades shine.

Nobody would use Interceptors. Would this make the game better?

At least it would make Vader better.

Autothrusters is a necessary evil.

It would have been nice if the game didn't get so saturated with ******* turrets to the point where a hard counter autoinclude needed to be introduced.

Would be cool if it was actually possible to damage things at range 3 again.

Yes we want to kill off the best Imperial pilot. Don't kid yourself, Soontir is the only Interceptor that ever sees play. Meta would open up quite a lot if Soontir didn't exist. If PtL didn't exist, it would actually be a /buff/ to 5x Autothruster Alpha because now my 5 Interceptors wouldn't have to deal with Soontir.

God forbid every Imperial list not just be a Fel and 65 points of something else.

Soontir with Squad Leader, Experimental Interface, Autothrusters. Gasp that might actually be balanced and require skill to utilize effectively, can't have that.

If you want me to tell that X-Wing would be a better game without PTL, I would disagree.

I'd make the shittier upgrades cheaper to have an option. Like Rage is 1 point. I like Rage because I think its priced right. Daredevil should be 1 point as well. And there are other upgrades which would see use if they were cheaper.

I would not ban anything in this game.

I do think that we need a Yoda card for rebels that can modify dice of ships attacking you. Emperor is way OP at the moment and we need scum and rebel cards to help negate that a bit.

I would not ban anything. Make max permanent PS 9 with only temporary abilities able to go above that.

Otherwise maybe pull the EPT from the contracted scout. If all the under PS7 X-wing Pilots don't have EPTs then neither should the scout. I think FFG will probably do something to balance this going forward though.

I do think that we need a Yoda card for rebels that can modify dice of ships attacking you. Emperor is way OP at the moment and we need scum and rebel cards to help negate that a bit.

boba fett crew is a pretty good hard counter to palpatine.

I would ban Engine Upgrade

I would make Agromech unique.

Ships with Engine aren't broken. It's just made a lot of annoying meta changes.

IMO:

Either:

Ban = Advanced Cloaking Device

Unique = Veteran Instincts

or

Ban = Veteran Instincts
Unique = Push the limit.

I'm of the opinion that the only reason VI is so important is to get above a VI'd Whisper.. but if Whisper shot first and didnt auto cloak it would not be as busted. I think everything else with VI is fine and you can just outfly it. The Phantom may then become completely unplayable but I mean, has anyone even at least tried Stygium Particle Accelerator? .. it can't be that bad right? .. its just nothing next to ACD. Ban ACD and maybe even release more Cloaking stuff that ISNT busted.

Anyway I reckon if Whisper doesnt recloak you can kill it much easier, making VI much less of an issue.

Failing that, if I'm completely wrong. I'm all for the second option which seems to be most popular, ban VI. Seriously, there are so many cool and fun and even powerful EPT's that cannot be used simply because VI is too important, it stifles so much build creativity.