You guys confuse me. Is the Defender (pre-imp vets) easy to kill or not?

Well, it succumbs to Focus fire pretty easily. At the moment, it can only grab a Focus for defense and gets 3 dice. So, it's as easy to hit as a Tie Fighter. It's just that it's got 3 Shield and 3 Hull. So, it takes some chewing through. If someone's dice are hot, it could be a right pain in the exhaust port. If their dice are cold, it's pretty easy to kill it.

...and back to the OP....A-wings are not doing well? They can have 2 EPTs, the best dial in the game, -2 points if you don't go Missile. Guidance Chip if you do go missile, and they are underpowered? Oh, and a lot of good pilots. What's wrong with A-wings?

You guys confuse me. Is the Defender (pre-imp vets) easy to kill or not?

Your opponent rolls 3 hits you roll a focus abs evade so you spend your focus. Take a hit

Next he rolls 2 hits and crit

You roll two focus and blank

There you lost two shields, took a crit and have two (possibly one hull left) and that is from two ships

Seen it more times to care for and with the costs of the defender just aren't worth it

It can't arc dodge, it is a jousting ship, but going up against 3-4 ships all rolling 3 red dice can kill it in one engagement, which I've also seen, and hence why I hardly ever use them..... Until now

That free evade helps a ton, pair up with an emperor shuttle, helps them even more

As for the new pilot I agree with another poster

On paper looks good, but I don't think it'll be all cracked up many are making it out to be.

Vessery imo is still better

Having target locks for two attack and a focus (2 two focus if you use a scimitar with Fleet Officer) is deadly

If you could have had three defenders with juke, TIE/x7 and TIE mkII then maybe, but that is not to be.

What is it with this forum and spam lists? You don't define the utility of a ship by whether you can run literally just that in endless multiples.

Wave 8 is the first really obvious power creep IMO. Other waves have added a few powerful cards, sometimes a little over the edge, but never such a plethora of improvement.

În what way is wave 8 power creep?

It can't arc dodge, it is a jousting ship, but going up against 3-4 ships all rolling 3 red dice can kill it in one engagement, which I've also seen, and hence why I hardly ever use them..... Until now

I'm sorry, but any ship that can Barrel Roll can arc dodge. The whole term Arc Dodge started before Tie Interceptors even came out. Yes, a PTL Interceptor is better with two actions to dodge an arc, but I'm sick of people saying that you can't arc dodge with just one of those abilities. You can, but it's just harder.

I can tell you I've dodged plenty of arcs with just my Barrel Roll before.

It can't arc dodge,

Do you know what a barrel roll is ?!

With BR, 3 shield and hull and 3 green dice, it used to be tough to kill, but really overpriced.

Now it is clearly too powerful.

You guys confuse me. Is the Defender (pre-imp vets) easy to kill or not?

Well, any ship with 6 hull and 3 agility will take a pounding to kill. But it doesn't have a native Evade action to help tank or a native Boost to dodge arcs, so it's going to bleed those 6 hull out over time and for the amount of points you're spending to put it into the table the Defender's way easier to kill than any comparable competitive ship.

Also, for the points you've spent vs survivability the Defender is almost always going to look like a weak spot that your opponent will try to target.

Wave 8 is the first really obvious power creep IMO. Other waves have added a few powerful cards, sometimes a little over the edge, but never such a plethora of improvement.

În what way is wave 8 power creep?

I think it's very noticeable that the majority of lists making the cut are featuring a Wave 8 ship.

I think some of the perception of power creep is really about the extent of power churn that has been brought in Wave 8, but underlying that it does seem like Inquisitor/Ghost/Jumpmaster really is everywhere. That the Inquisitor has almost entirely replaced Soontir Fel is telling.

I think it's very noticeable that the majority of lists making the cut are featuring a Wave 8 ship.

Because Wave 8 is new and shiny. Look at all the K-wings in Wave 7.

You guys confuse me. Is the Defender (pre-imp vets) easy to kill or not?

Yes.

Ran two defenders the other day. First one died when attacked by two X-wings. 7 green dice for the two attacks... all blanks. The second defender stood up to repeated attacks by three X-wings for four more turns. Don't let the 6 health fool you. Defenders are still subject to the tyranny of green dice.

Compare the cost of any of your favorite Defender builds to an equivalent amount of standard Ties or even Crack Squadrons. The Defender better bring something special or they will never be worth all those points.

Over reacting? I think people are under reacting. Soon we will go from never seeing a defender, to seeing some (and they might be RED).

I personally like the fixes, the extra shot sounds powerful, until you realize the most it can do is one extra damage, and it makes the ship cost more. The -2 with an evade isn't too bad, because to get that evade they need to be really predictable. Now if they had a native boost, it might be too much if combined with AT, but it can't.

I think it's very noticeable that the majority of lists making the cut are featuring a Wave 8 ship.

Because Wave 8 is new and shiny. Look at all the K-wings in Wave 7.

Yeah, this does happen a lot. People bring the new shiny stuff out. Also, people haven't figured out how to fly against it, as well. Happened with TLT's. It happened with Bro Bots. It happened with Outrider and Decimator.

Also, Soontir Fel has been well overplayed since Auto Thrusters brought him back. I'm tired of seeing him on the table. There have also been a number of upgrades that almost seems to specifically target Soontir Fel. Personally, I welcome it.

You guys confuse me. Is the Defender (pre-imp vets) easy to kill or not?

Yes.

Ran two defenders the other day. First one died when attacked by two X-wings. 7 green dice for the two attacks... all blanks. The second defender stood up to repeated attacks by three X-wings for four more turns. Don't let the 6 health fool you. Defenders are still subject to the tyranny of green dice.

Compare the cost of any of your favorite Defender builds to an equivalent amount of standard Ties or even Crack Squadrons. The Defender better bring something special or they will never be worth all those points.

Its like sometimes the green dice know which ship they are rolling for. I've had Academy Pilots withstand multiple attacks with evades everywhere. I've also had a +40 Brath die in the first round of combat because I couldn't roll any evades.

Very true. Two Academy Pilots at 24 points can do a lot more for you than a 30 point Delta. They are going to be harder to kill as well. Now at least the Delta will be a tad harder to kill and only tax your list at 28 points.

With these new Tie defender cards I sort of feel like things are going too far.

Tie defenders now get the A-Wing "Fix" Chardaan Refit but with a free evade token. They were already a chore to kill with their 3 hull, 3 shields, 3 agility, barrel roll and a good dial. Now they get free evades on top of that.

Tie defenders now get the Y-Wing "fix" except unlike the Y-Wing they had good damage to start with so they didn't really need it.

These ships with high agility are already some of the most tanky ships in the game. Lots of health but 1 agility ships seem like they are becoming less and less viable since they are just too squishy.

My favorite, the A-Wing, is falling farther behind viability since it was already struggling to make a difference in battle with it's 2 dice. More and more it must compete with ships able to attack multiple times yet are even more resilient.

Y-Wings seem overshadowed completely by this new defender. Less damage, less liklihood of dealing damage less movement options and 1 agility 8 toughness simply not keeping it alive long.

Do they have to keep making all these high damage high agility ships so difficult to kill? I used to think they survived by their movement. Nowadays they can just fight head-on and have fine chances of victory. It's like sure, they can play the arc dodger game. but at this point do they really need to?

Am I overreacting?

You saw that 5 A-Wings won two of the first 5 regionals and a defender hasn't been seen in very many cuts for a couple years. (A few - but not often)

No, not overreacting. Run. hide. Give all your X-Wing stuff to me.

Wave 8 is the first really obvious power creep IMO. Other waves have added a few powerful cards, sometimes a little over the edge, but never such a plethora of improvement.

În what way is wave 8 power creep?

Ghost expansion

- The VCX itself. It is a big clumsy freighter, but can still take evade actions. And has a 1-turn. And a K-turn. And it can fire twice. And has a systems upgrade slot. And a primary attack of 4.

- Hera. Amazing ability. Many times better than Countess Ryad's.

- Kanan. Another strong ability, and its most obvious abuse has already made its way into the top of tournaments.

- Kanan (crew). For obvious reasons.

Inquisitor's TIE

- TIE Advanced prototype. It's a prototype for the TIE Advanced, yet it is better in almost every way. Green 1-turns, awesome. The boost is just icing on the cake.

- The Inquisitor. Another amazing pilot ability.

- The title. Free evade with every target lock? For 1 point? Yes, please.

- Guidance chips. Ok, this is a boost to something that was previously underpowered, so maybe not so much power creep as it is a fix.

Mist Hunter

- Adaptability. Amazing upgrade that makes sure every EPT slot is used for all eternity. And it gives you great flexibility.

- Zuckuss (crew). Cheap and almost auto include on a YV-666.

- 4-LOM (crew). Perfect for ace hunting with big ships.

Punishing One

- Jumpmaster. The perfect ordnance carrier. I don't think anyone has missed what impact its introduction had on the meta.

- Dengar (crew). Like predator, only better. And it doesn't take up an EPT slot.

- Contracted scout. Compare it to a Wild space fringer and tell me there is no power creep going on.

- Guidance chips. Already covered.

I'm sure I forgot something.

Please note that I am not calling any of the above OP. I am just pointing out the great number of strong pilots and upgrades that Wave 8 brought.

Edit:

I bolded a sentence that was obviously hard to find (or conveniently ignored).

You really could list all the good cards with every wave...

There are about as many 'meh' cards as there are good cards from wave 8.

You really could list all the good cards with every wave...

There are about as many 'meh' cards as there are good cards from wave 8.

Yes, but with most other waves there are considerably fewer good cards.

So a wave full of good cards is power creep to you even if the good cards serve to open additional options rather than make already good builds better?

Having flown a twin Defender list many times all I see from Imperial Veterans is a reason to fly the Defender with other ships. Now you can build it as a F-104 and boom and zoom through the furball while your other TIEs knife fight in close. It should drive the unprepared completely nuts! Or build it as a control ship and force the other guy to go where you want, when you want.

Sure the Countess seems ridiculous right now. But start flying every turn in a straight line and watch her get her ass shot off right quick.

Honestly, this is just going to bring the Defender into the mainstream of play. It's not going to turn it into the be all end all fighter of doom.

Sure the Countess seems ridiculous right now. But start flying every turn in a straight line and watch her get her ass shot off right quick.

I think the benefit here is more that when you're flying soontir for example your maneuver after ptl depends on if you want to turn around or not. If not he goes straight or 2 bank and if so he goes hard 2. The countess can do the same thing except on turn around turns she doesn't need to hard 2, boost, barrel roll, she just can kturn. That's really why she's crazy because she's a good ptl carrier that doesn't have hard greens.

Ghost Expansion

- The VCX itself. It is a big clumsy freighter, but can still take evade actions. And has a 1-turn. And a K-turn. And it can fire twice. And has a systems upgrade slot. And a primary attack of 4.

- Hera. Amazing ability. Many times better than Countess Ryad's.

- Kanan. Another strong ability, and its most obvious abuse has already made its way into the top of tournaments.

- Kanan (crew). For obvious reasons.

Inquisitor's TIE

- TIE Advanced prototype. It's a prototype for the TIE Advanced, yet it is better in almost every way. Green 1-turns, awesome. The boost is just icing on the cake.

- The Inquisitor. Another amazing pilot ability.

- The title. Free evade with every target lock? For 1 point? Yes, please.

- Guidance chips. Ok, this is a boost to something that was previously underpowered, so maybe not so much power creep as it is a fix.

OK....just to look at these....

Ghost Expansion

-You want to talk about big and clumsy freighters that do incredible moves? Look at the Falcon or the Outrider. They have even better dials. I'm not too worried about an Evade action from this beast. If that's it's action, then that's OK with me. Maybe a problem if you only fly 2-3 ships in a list, but even then, not game breaking.

-Hera's ability is good, but not game breaking. I mean, she can be hard to pin down, but the board is only so big and there are only so many ways she wants to go. It really seems that she can dodge a bump or a bad dial guess, but it's not like it makes the ship OP.

-Kannan's pilot ability is alright....if you are facing only 2-3 enemy. Otherwise, it's not all that.

-Kannan Crew....I'll give you that. It is pretty powerful.

Tie Adv Prototype

-I absolutely disagree that it's better than the Tie Advanced X1 in almost every way. For one, the X1 has 1 more Hull, a -4 slot on Systems, and the ability to get the Advanced Targeting Computer. This makes generic X1's able to take Accuracy Corrector and be much meaner than generic V1's. Also, the pilots for the X1 are just amazing.

-Inquisitor is a good pilot with a good ability, but I wouldn't say broken.

-V1 title is really good. Not broken, but nice. It's not Shield Regen or anything, but it is good.

You'll never see more than 3 in a 100 point list though, which is something.

The new TIE Defender changes don't really feel like they are jumping quite that far up the power curve. The titles aren't even strictly buffs, as they both sacrifice something for what they gain.

It is possible that the defender is now a competitive ship, and it is true that some ships struggle to keep up with other ships in that competitive envelope, but I don't really see the TIE Defender pushing out the competitive curve any farther than it already is.

[...]

We now have 32 ships (37 if you count the scum separately from the rebs and imps and 41 if you count huge ships also) double the number of ships in Wave 4 when Rebel Aces came out. There is a lot of ships out there. A few have became top tier and everything else has either fallen from top or never reached it. There are plenty of ships that need an "update" it depends on how FFG is going to update those and in which order.

I know I'm mostly alone in this. But do we really need fixes/updates for every ship? I can't remember what goes with what now.

I'm sorry but the fix you fixed on your last fix will need a fix because it broke the fix before that.