Amanal - I am of the opinion the very inexpensive flotillas will make the demolisher even more broken. Not sure what people think they will do to three attack paradigm. Doesn't change that.

As soon as they are out, I will have 9-11 deployments and 6-7 activations, with a demolisher and a 100 pt rhymer/bomber/anti squad.

Flotillas will only help the high activation demolisher list.

Off the top of my head, increasing the efficacy/consistency of bomber dice might make the bomber minefield a higher percentage kill on demo, and as such be a workable "stiff arm". Right now, there's no reason not to just charge through and take your licks to kill the carrier. Also, that flotilla could act as a blocker, occupying valuable real estate that the demo needs to get to a value target. This is the hope.

I think you are probably right though, and it just leads to demo MSU's with a real fighter presence. Which sounds fun to play and miserable to deal with.

OK here is my idea for how to wreak Demolisher. Flotillas with Tractor Beams!! Speed 2 for you!!

OK here is my idea for how to wreak Demolisher. Flotillas with Tractor Beams!! Speed 2 for you!!

Would there be a significant difference in lethality if Demolisher became simply a third attack? Like "after you make your initial two attacks, you may make one additional attack even from the same arc"?

One thing this would do is eliminate the ability to instantly remove the brace, giving it to you for two attacks instead of one.

OK here is my idea for how to wreak Demolisher. Flotillas with Tractor Beams!! Speed 2 for you!!

The issue with tractor beams is that they need to be in a range rulers range. This is hard currently because the GSD with engine techs can post up to a range rulers distance away with space left over (about a close range worth of space) and won't be hit by your tractor beams till after it kills something. By then you can be a medium to large ship short

You going to attack the Flotilla?

If they are 1-2 ahead and to the side of the ship you are hoping to attack they'll do their job to some extent or another.

Ah crap, i think I figured it out.

In addition to any other change unless the entire card is rewritten, it's going to become a discard effect.

It still seems like a cheap (?) speedbump will be helpful. With good placement, you can prevent the demolisher from getting into black dice range of a bigger ship on its first move in.

Not a 100% guarantee, but if it is effective enough of the time, that may be enough to blunt the impact to the meta overall.

Ah crap, i think I figured it out.

In addition to any other change unless the entire card is rewritten, it's going to become a discard effect.

This was proposed earlier and all things considered I'm not opposed to that idea. It's not my preferred solution but it would do the trick.

Amanal - I am of the opinion the very inexpensive flotillas will make the demolisher even more broken. Not sure what people think they will do to three attack paradigm. Doesn't change that.

As soon as they are out, I will have 9-11 deployments and 6-7 activations, with a demolisher and a 100 pt rhymer/bomber/anti squad.

Flotillas will only help the high activation demolisher list.

I think its a bit unfair to say "only" help the Demolisher list...

I mean, I can put a wall of flotillas up... I'll play points denial all day, since I'll out-bomber still

I don't see why people think flotillas will help against the Demolisher. Sure, it ups your own activation count and can maybe be used as a speed bump, but odds are experienced Demo players will be able to avoid the flotilla. Also, let's not forget that the Clonish type lists can simply put in a bunch of their own flotillas, to take them to a higher total activation count as well, meaning they'll be able to deploy that Demo last (and thus probably avoid their opponent's flotilla screen).

Maybe it will help, but it seems to me like from what we know a lot of the ways in which the flotillas offer benefits could also be used by Clonish lists, too.


Clearly, the Demolisher title needs a nerf, as it is an absolute auto-include in every single Imperial list with a Gladiator, and practically an auto-include in every single Imperial list, period. The fact that it is so over-represented in Top 4 squads is pretty telling. Personally, I think both the Gladiator title and Major Rhymer need slight tweaks or nerfs. Moreso than any other ship or any other squadron, both require their opponent to entirely alter their game plans in drastic and disadvantaging ways to try and avoid the huge advantages they offer (blasting ships after movement and bombing ships from halfway across the map, respectively). No other cards really even come close to offer the basic-mechanic warping effects of these two cards, and it's no surprise we see them so heavily represented in attendance at Regionals and so over-represented (relative to their attendance) in the Top 4 squads. See the Regional thread for the data.

You know, the further this goes on, the further I start leaning towards the:

"One of two things is going to happen. FFG is going to say that Demolisher is over-represented and do something about it... (Or have already planned to with other options) - Or they won't and nothing will change... Either way, going back and forth on the argument is doing nothing but giving people the opportunity to say you are wrong to another person... and that's never a good thing."

Because other than pointlessly argue it, there isn't anything else we can directly do....

Because it is pointlessly.

There has to be a much larger outcry and/or visual problem - like the ID issue, or perhaps that IA build that went on to get erratted.....

Until such time as Worlds ends up with a Top 8 of Demolishers, I don't think we can make enough noise.

I have at least a little faith that FFG has considered the possibility of flotillas devolving the game into as-many-flotillas-as-can-fit plus squadrons plus 1 real ship. Basically making it about a race to most activations.

I think flotillas will be tweaked in point cost to not make this too much of an issue. I expect them to clock in at 30-35 points. Low enough that they are cheap, but not so low that it isn't a very real choice between a toothless support ship and a naked raider or cr90. It may add a couple of activations to a MSU list,and result in pulling some of its teeth in the process, potentially a net push.

Combine that with FAQing away the engine tech thing and DeMSU is still viable but reined in as it will make more sense for lower activation lists to add flotillas rather than MSU lists.

I have at least a little faith that FFG has considered the possibility of flotillas devolving the game into as-many-flotillas-as-can-fit plus squadrons plus 1 real ship. Basically making it about a race to most activations.

I think flotillas will be tweaked in point cost to not make this too much of an issue. I expect them to clock in at 30-35 points. Low enough that they are cheap, but not so low that it isn't a very real choice between a toothless support ship and a naked raider or cr90. It may add a couple of activations to a MSU list,and result in pulling some of its teeth in the process, potentially a net push.

I, too, really hope this is true. We'll need to wait and see what the costs of flotillas turn out to be, but I'm afraid of a meta where every list is packing 4-6 flotillas to control activation order. This was the sort of the thing that, along with other issues, ruined the old WotC Star Wars mini game. Since people took turns activating a few models of their force, controlling the activation order was super important and so every squad was packed full of silly 2pt Mouse Droids and 3pt Ugnaughts just to inflate the number of activations a squad brought to the table. This was pretty silly looking on the table:

"Lord Vader, you may begin your ground assault to kill the Rebel leaders."

"Good, bring me my crackshot commando team of weaponless ugnaughts and mouse droids and prep my shuttle."

I trust FFG a hell of a lot more than I ever trusted WotC when it comes to game design, so I'm not too worried. But only time will tell.

Even at 20 points per flotilla, I think they'll be more than balanced. Activation advantage is a little overrated at the moment. Yes, it's great to have, but it's not so great that you can sink 20 points into something that will do nothing but give you another activation. In a ship oriented list, are you really going to take 2 flottillas over a TRC90? In Imperial lists, is it really work dropping a Raider I with APT and OE for another activation? These are not insignificant sources of firewpower. Even in my squadron lists, which will very clearly benefit from the flotilla's bomber command center, I'm thinking very hard about the advantages versus the very real drop off in raw firepower. The flotillas have to bring more than an activation to offset their lack of firepower.

For example, in my match against Ninja, I would have wiped the floor with him had he brought 8 flotillas and Demolisher. Sure, Demolisher would have killed something (and it did), but you can position yourself to make it go away after that initial pain. Ninja managed to pull it to a 5-5 because of his APT/OE Raiders. If those had been nothing but flottilas, the game would have been a 10-0 in my favor easily. If it had been 4 flotillas, a ~100 point Rhymerball, and Demolisher, it would have been closer game, but I still don't think a Rhymerball of that size would have given me much of a headache. There is a huge drop off in firepower when you invest 80 points in ships that only have a single blue die per arc.

dras I disagree we can make a difference we know they listen and setting this big of a discussion from us will at the very least leaf to a discussion on their end.

Yes we can! Yes we can!

Yes we can! Yes we can!

**Edited so the picture doesn't take up half the page**

It will be a whole lot easier for non DeMSU list to kill flotillas with squadrons etc, thus dropping their activations fast, than it will be for demolisher to kill flotillas.

Even at 20 points per flotilla, I think they'll be more than balanced. Activation advantage is a little overrated at the moment. Yes, it's great to have, but it's not so great that you can sink 20 points into something that will do nothing but give you another activation. In a ship oriented list, are you really going to take 2 flottillas over a TRC90? In Imperial lists, is it really work dropping a Raider I with APT and OE for another activation? These are not insignificant sources of firewpower. Even in my squadron lists, which will very clearly benefit from the flotilla's bomber command center, I'm thinking very hard about the advantages versus the very real drop off in raw firepower. The flotillas have to bring more than an activation to offset their lack of firepower.

For example, in my match against Ninja, I would have wiped the floor with him had he brought 8 flotillas and Demolisher. Sure, Demolisher would have killed something (and it did), but you can position yourself to make it go away after that initial pain. Ninja managed to pull it to a 5-5 because of his APT/OE Raiders. If those had been nothing but flottilas, the game would have been a 10-0 in my favor easily. If it had been 4 flotillas, a ~100 point Rhymerball, and Demolisher, it would have been closer game, but I still don't think a Rhymerball of that size would have given me much of a headache. There is a huge drop off in firepower when you invest 80 points in ships that only have a single blue die per arc.

I completely agree with this. It's important to understand how a DeMSU (...is that what we're calling it now?) clontroper-style fleet functions; the Demolisher is the star player for sure but the Raiders (or other Gladiators, depending) can punch above their weight and their presence causes serious issues for the other fleet. Out-activating the other fleet is very important but it's also important that you have several credible threats. If it was just Demolisher and a bunch of mostly empty activations it would be a one-trick pony and very easy to plan for and dismantle. Demolisher is good, but it's not good enough to take on an entire fleet by itself.

TL;DR version: casual players who haven't actually played against a clontroper-style fleet seem to be taking away only that Demolisher + lots of activations is good but that's a comedic and incorrect summary of how the fleet works.

Regarding using flotillas AGAINST a clontroper-style fleet, we'll need to see what they can do. Simply getting in the way may not be sufficient as there needs to be some kind of "punishment" for letting the flotillas live or else they can be ignored (to the best of your ability, of course). The argument for flotillas is that even with Intel Officer, if I need to waste two Gladiator attacks to pop a single 20ish point ship, that's a waste of my time. Raiders would be increasingly useful as the blue dice stand a good chance of generating an Accuracy to lock down the Scatter and one-shotting troublesome flotillas. Plus Raiders will happily crash-land into flotillas to set themselves up for an attack next turn.

I suppose they could implement a maximum ship rule of say 4 to 6 somewhere in there and not hurt build diversity too too much... bcc should give bombers enough consistency so that they may be able to either first strike demo, our take him out after he's done some damage... objectives are probably another great avenue to take, as you wouldn't have to change demo in anyway, but could provide a set of New objectives that are basically hard counters to demsu or msu lists...

I'm NOT worried

I suppose they could implement a maximum ship rule of say 4 to 6 somewhere in there

Plz no.

Sincerely,

CR90 Swarm Players

I suppose they could implement a maximum ship rule of say 4 to 6 somewhere in there

Plz no.

Sincerely,

CR90 Swarm Players

Why did you pluralise players?

TL;DR version: casual players who haven't actually played against a clontroper-style fleet seem to be taking away only that Demolisher + lots of activations is good but that's a comedic and incorrect summary of how the fleet works.

This is the fourth time I've been on these boards and have seen someone use the word "casuals" as an ad hominem attack against a position in an effort to dismiss it. This is unproductive and reeks of condescension. It also furthers a false divide between players of this game as it attempts to divide the community into two groups: those who are allowed to speak about the game and those who keep their mouths shut. Please stop, for the sake of the community.

PS: For the record, maybe I'm a casual, maybe I'm not. I don't know what the arbitrary criteria you have in mind for dividing players into the hierarchy you are describing. As to a resume, all I know is that I won the Massing at Sullest Event which I attended, I took first in three of the four seasonal kits I partook in, I won the Store Championship I played in (I sat and TOed the other), and I finished Top 8 at the biggest Armada regional that has yet occurred (which suggest my localish meta is pretty decent). If that makes me a casual, then yes, I'm a casual.

This is the fourth time I've been on these boards and have seen someone use the word "casuals" as an ad hominem attack against a position in an effort to dismiss it. This is unproductive and reeks of condescension. It also furthers a false divide between players of this game as it attempts to divide the community into two groups: those who are allowed to speak about the game and those who keep their mouths shut. Please stop, for the sake of the community.

I'll 100% back you on this. I disagree with you on flotillas and activations, as you saw from my statement, but I hate it when people are dismissed as "casuals."

As for the ship cap, I agree Ardaedhel. A ship cap wouldn't do anything. I think the most reasonable action at this time, if there is any action to be taken, is the simple soft nerf suggested by the OP. Limiting the usage of the Demolisher title to not include Engine Tech movement does a lot to limit the flexibility and threat range of Demolisher. This, combined with the wild card of flotillas, should be enough of an adjustment for wave 3. If Demolisher is still king after that, then it's time for more drastic action.

I suppose they could implement a maximum ship rule of say 4 to 6 somewhere in there

Plz no.

Sincerely,

CR90 Swarm Players

Why did you pluralise players?