As matter of principle, I don't like nerfs of units, as some nerfs, how well intended they may be, sometimes goes totally overboard, and destroys a units intended abillity, or worth while point cost.

I'm more in the camp that some future upgrade card, should be a nice counter to the Demo, or one or more ship titels that can compete in popularity and usefullnes with Demo, so the choice is much more broader.

So that you wont always see Demo in Imp list, but other ship titels too.

The above I say as a Reb player

rieekan is imo not an actual counter. You're still losing a ship it just gets to go once. Its a mitigation not a counter again imo

I have to agree. Its damage control.

I think the difference though, is that rhymerball can be played around some, can be handled by squadrons of your own, what have you. There are a larger variety of methods to deal with it. DeMSU with first player, that triple tap is a foregone conclusion unless you brought your own five ship list or out bid your opponent. And that leads to frustruting/unenjoyable gaming experiences. There are great games that come down to the wire and you look across the table and say "wow well played man, I don't even know what I could have done differently" and thats good and everyone feels great. With DeMSU against some lists its like "Wow, well played but then as long as you didn't competely screw the pooch there was nothing I could do anyway" and that feels terrible for 50 percent of the people involved.

I hear you.

What we want is for the wins/losses to be determined by player skill, rather than (net-)builds and dice.

But in this discussion we're talking specifically about the Demolisher title card, not the DeMSU list. I'm sure that someone is going to find an Achilles heel of the DeMSU list other than outbidding, and I think there's already someone talking about that. But is it really Demolisher on her own that is breaking the game? If so, why hasn't the game been broken since Wave 1?

It hasn't been broken because Demolisher had no small ship to force you to activate all of your ships. There was also no reroll mechanic for the black dice.

I think the difference though, is that rhymerball can be played around some, can be handled by squadrons of your own, what have you. There are a larger variety of methods to deal with it. DeMSU with first player, that triple tap is a foregone conclusion unless you brought your own five ship list or out bid your opponent. And that leads to frustruting/unenjoyable gaming experiences. There are great games that come down to the wire and you look across the table and say "wow well played man, I don't even know what I could have done differently" and thats good and everyone feels great. With DeMSU against some lists its like "Wow, well played but then as long as you didn't competely screw the pooch there was nothing I could do anyway" and that feels terrible for 50 percent of the people involved.

I hear you.

What we want is for the wins/losses to be determined by player skill, rather than (net-)builds and dice.

But in this discussion we're talking specifically about the Demolisher title card, not the DeMSU list. I'm sure that someone is going to find an Achilles heel of the DeMSU list other than outbidding, and I think there's already someone talking about that. But is it really Demolisher on her own that is breaking the game? If so, why hasn't the game been broken since Wave 1?

I believe we are talking about demolisher as a result of rise of the DeMSU list, which coincidentaly answers your question about why it wasn't OP in wave 1. I think if you look the discussion as a whole, you'll find that most of the valid arguments regarding a Demolisher nerf center around its function within that archtype, and as such there is little point to trying to sever concerns about the DeMSU from the Title card. We talk about nerfing Demo because its the easiest knob to turn on that list, with the least far reaching consequences.

If its just demo in a vacuum, the card is fine. In most lists its just a little more difficult to play around. In DeMSU, there is a legitimate concern it might be broken. Thats the crux, imo, of this discussion. So far the jury is out, but I do believe there is more than enough evidence for us to take a long look at it.

Yeah but you can't look at it in isolation because it doesn't exist in isolation.

Like any ecosystem, you change one thing and it will have far reaching repercussions, so by definition you cannot make a change "in a vacuum". It's a fallacy to just pick out demo. Look at it this way, it would just as effectively break the archetype if raiders cost 5-10 more points, making it difficult to implement the MSU bit of DeMSU (possibly impossible). Would that be fair to lists that have raiders in Squadron control roles? or as a spare activation? No. Raider doesn't exist in a vacuum either!

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

That may be so (I don't see that fact reflected in your top posting), but if 3/5 winners are Rhymerballs, and top 4 has 44% Rhymerball, compared to 25% DeMSU, then I'm still seeing evidence that Rhymer is king.

Since you have the complete data, as opposed to the distillation that you present, I'm happy take your word for it. (I must not be tempted into looking at the actual data!) I'm just curious how we might measure popularity vs. actual strength. It seems to me that the stuff that gets winnowed the more you get to the top, the more it's evidence of actual strength (player skill notwithstanding).

I will post up my spreadsheet for all to see once Regionals season is complete. I know I'm not the only data nerd on here. I've definitely been finding the trends in the Top 8 and Top 4 to be far more interesting than the winners.

I agree. Who winds up winning a given tournament could be dependent on who had their coffee. Whats consistently placing high is far more interesting.

I believe we are talking about demolisher as a result of rise of the DeMSU list, which coincidentaly answers your question about why it wasn't OP in wave 1. I think if you look the discussion as a whole, you'll find that most of the valid arguments regarding a Demolisher nerf center around its function within that archtype, and as such there is little point to trying to sever concerns about the DeMSU from the Title card. We talk about nerfing Demo because its the easiest knob to turn on that list, with the least far reaching consequences.

If its just demo in a vacuum, the card is fine. In most lists its just a little more difficult to play around. In DeMSU, there is a legitimate concern it might be broken. Thats the crux, imo, of this discussion. So far the jury is out, but I do believe there is more than enough evidence for us to take a long look at it.

It hasn't been broken because Demolisher had no small ship to force you to activate all of your ships. There was also no reroll mechanic for the black dice.

You guys seem to be making my point for me. If Demolisher is OP within just this meta, then the meta can fix Demolisher and it shouldn't need FFG to step in.

As to 'had no small ships' and rerolls... You're talking about something that emerged with Wave 2, but it took months before the DeMSU really became a thing.

And that's fair and also why I'd prefer an errata to the Demolisher title to deal with the issue directly. In my experience, silver bullet fixes rapidly compound and ruin your game* due to their uneven availability across all builds/factions and weird meta-wave effects they produce**. It's bad. Simply using errata/banning/restricting is often the better method in the long run for a game's health rather than silver bullets. It's less immediately popular, of course, but we get over it. Also I'm going to end my post with a dramatic bolded word as well!

Banana Phones

*Warmachine suffers from this tremendously and this is one of the things that caused our local once-vibrant Netrunner LCG scene to spectacularly implode to the point where it's basically dead now.

**If decks/lists include A to counter the BS deck B is including, then incidences of deck B will decrease, thus increasing your incentive to not run A any more because it's effectively a "dead card" against most other decks. Except LOOK OUT now that card A is less common, here comes deck B again being completely broken until the cycle keeps repeating itself. It's... stupid. You get a meta where your games are basically decided on whether you can counter the broken BS in the other deck or not.

This is also a problem in X-wing and that makes me fear for Armada since FFG is in charge of both. I much prefer errata to "balancing card" fixes.

I believe we are talking about demolisher as a result of rise of the DeMSU list, which coincidentaly answers your question about why it wasn't OP in wave 1. I think if you look the discussion as a whole, you'll find that most of the valid arguments regarding a Demolisher nerf center around its function within that archtype, and as such there is little point to trying to sever concerns about the DeMSU from the Title card. We talk about nerfing Demo because its the easiest knob to turn on that list, with the least far reaching consequences.

If its just demo in a vacuum, the card is fine. In most lists its just a little more difficult to play around. In DeMSU, there is a legitimate concern it might be broken. Thats the crux, imo, of this discussion. So far the jury is out, but I do believe there is more than enough evidence for us to take a long look at it.

It hasn't been broken because Demolisher had no small ship to force you to activate all of your ships. There was also no reroll mechanic for the black dice.

You guys seem to be making my point for me. If Demolisher is OP within just this meta, then the meta can fix Demolisher and it shouldn't need FFG to step in.

As to 'had no small ships' and rerolls... You're talking about something that emerged with Wave 2, but it took months before the DeMSU really became a thing.

That is something I will have to disagree with. DeMSU is not a new thing. It is essentially a Wave 2 update to the GenCon special. In the last round of GenCon I was one of two players that didn't have Demolisher in the top 8. The top 3 tables were all Imperial fleets and I believe they all had 3-4 activations. I wasn't at Worlds and from what I recall a Rebel player won, but the top tables were still largely dominated by Imperials with Demolisher and lots of activations.

When are we nerfing Yavaris? Before or after nerfing Demolisher?

You guys seem to be making my point for me. If Demolisher is OP within just this meta, then the meta can fix Demolisher and it shouldn't need FFG to step in.

That is something I will have to disagree with. DeMSU is not a new thing. It is essentially a Wave 2 update to the GenCon special. In the last round of GenCon I was one of two players that didn't have Demolisher in the top 8. The top 3 tables were all Imperial fleets and I believe they all had 3-4 activations. I wasn't at Worlds and from what I recall a Rebel player won, but the top tables were still largely dominated by Imperials with Demolisher and lots of activations.

Good point. So, were you and the World's winner just that good, or is the DeMSU and its ancestor beatable by mere mortals? Again, it seems like the Rhymerball is the one taking the trophy. What's the comparative prevalence rate of Demolisher from all-comers to Top 8 to Top 4? Does the rate go up or down as you move to the top table?

You guys seem to be making my point for me. If Demolisher is OP within just this meta, then the meta can fix Demolisher and it shouldn't need FFG to step in.

That is something I will have to disagree with. DeMSU is not a new thing. It is essentially a Wave 2 update to the GenCon special. In the last round of GenCon I was one of two players that didn't have Demolisher in the top 8. The top 3 tables were all Imperial fleets and I believe they all had 3-4 activations. I wasn't at Worlds and from what I recall a Rebel player won, but the top tables were still largely dominated by Imperials with Demolisher and lots of activations.

Good point. So, were you and the World's winner just that good, or is the DeMSU and its ancestor beatable by mere mortals? Again, it seems like the Rhymerball is the one taking the trophy. What's the comparative prevalence rate of Demolisher from all-comers to Top 8 to Top 4? Does the rate go up or down as you move to the top table?

It might be worth having a "bottom 4" group as well, and seeing what appears in there.

What's the comparative prevalence rate of Demolisher from all-comers to Top 8 to Top 4? Does the rate go up or down as you move to the top table?

It might be worth having a "bottom 4" group as well, and seeing what appears in there.

There's a problem with that, though. I'm guessing that the bottom four are going to be people who are really new to the game, and are not yet in a place to really discern what's good and what's not. The reason for their failure may have nothing to do with the particular items within their builds, but can just be due to skill or due to a bad combination of things in their build.

What's the comparative prevalence rate of Demolisher from all-comers to Top 8 to Top 4? Does the rate go up or down as you move to the top table?

It might be worth having a "bottom 4" group as well, and seeing what appears in there.

There's a problem with that, though. I'm guessing that the bottom four are going to be people who are really new to the game, and are not yet in a place to really discern what's good and what's not. The reason for their failure may have nothing to do with the particular items within their builds, but can just be due to skill or due to a bad combination of things in their build.

As the question is: Is DeMSU impermeable to poor flying skills? It seems quite appropriate to see if it has managed to fall into the bottom 4 at some point.

Where that will come out is in looking at the drop off between how often a fleet archetype shows up and how often it makes the Top 8.

Oh, the lovely graphs that I will make.

When are we nerfing Yavaris? Before or after nerfing Demolisher?

not even on the same level. For starters there are not any generic upgrades that can boost yavaris. While inversely demo had all of the generic upgrades it could ever want.

IMO (im learning that I have to say that or my wife says I sound condescending on the interwebs..)

A rhymer(whatever) will still not do well versus demo and friends. Ive run across rhymer, probably ten times, in tounrnaments in various iterations. As long as I have more deployments (even one more), the rhymer fleet doesn't really stand a chance. That is why deployments are EQUALLY and sometimes more valuable than activations. With a deployment advantage, I will simply line up demo for the main carrier as the last deployment and kill it on turn 3 (or two depending). There is truly nothing that can be done to stop it.

I think people REALLY need to play against a high activation + high bid + demo list to understand. It is not just powerful, it really kinda become un fun for both sides. I mean, I love the game, and its not just a cake walk per se, but it definitely is a huge advantage. My goal has now become to "show" that.

I would like to see the demo card just gone. Breaking that premier core rule is what causes the cascade of problems. Plus, releasing cards and ships that simply are "counters to demo" is a rabbit hole.....

What lacklustre Rhymer ball doesnt outdeploy your fleet?

COMMIT to a goddamn build people. Dont Rhymer ball if your not going to RHYMER BALL.

I agree with you that just adding cards is a bad solution I disagree that the title needs to just be banned nor do I think that is a realistic option.

When are we nerfing Yavaris? Before or after nerfing Demolisher?

If more than half the fleets at the top tables of tournaments contained Yavaris I would say it would be as worthy of consideration as Demolisher. If 100% of the times a Nebulon-B was taken, the Yavaris title was present that would be worth looking at as well.

As it stands, there are a TON of Yavaris builds going to regionals. Squadron heavy rebels is the most common Rebel archetype and usually contains some mix of Yavaris, Gallant Haven, and Independence. But they are doing really poorly. Only a couple have even cracked the Top 8. The Nebulon-B is showing up in about 50% of the rebel fleets, but Yavaris is only there maybe 60% of the time, with the other 40% split between Salvation or no title.

Well, I always have at least 7, and usually 8 or 9 deployments. Its pretty difficult to outdeploy my fleet.

Well, I always have at least 7, and usually 8 or 9 deployments. Its pretty difficult to outdeploy my fleet.

Well, I always have at least 7, and usually 8 or 9 deployments. Its pretty difficult to outdeploy my fleet.

Personally, I have found that I don't care if they out deploy me. DtO handles squadrons the same way it always will (which will likely result in its death when flotilla's come out) and that is "**** the bombers! Full speed ahead!"

Quite so, but do the same fundamentals apply?

Sure, DtO (*shudder*) is also an MSU fleet with some really deadly black-dice throwers, but with two killer ships (rather than all the eggs in Demo) and both MC30 titles being defensive, isn't it a bit more resistant to having the single basket of eggs blown up?

Well, I always have at least 7, and usually 8 or 9 deployments. Its pretty difficult to outdeploy my fleet.

Personally, I have found that I don't care if they out deploy me. DtO handles squadrons the same way it always will (which will likely result in its death when flotilla's come out) and that is "**** the bombers! Full speed ahead!"

In all seriousness. This whole game is in for a shakeup in a couple of short months. Every wave inserts enough uncertainty that its sure to unseat the current meta darling.

It is entirely likely that on release of wave 3 this won't even be an issue anymore...

When are we nerfing Yavaris? Before or after nerfing Demolisher?

So give Yavaris a reroll for all the fighter die, upgrades that help. Boosted Comms, etc. It has no synergy with any ship upgrades that the Neb-B can take *except* officers. It's a carrier that has to be closer than most wave 2 carriers thanks to a 4 point upgrade, on a ship that wants to stay at long range. If, like Demolisher, it had all of the synergies between upgrades, then we could talk about nerfing it. The only real synergy it has that's not an officer on Yavaris is Adar Talon on another ship. Yavaris is a good carrier. Not a great carrier in Wave 2. Frankly the only thing that I think is a *great* carrier in Wave 2 is an ISD1, though expensive.

We can debate (as this whole thread is) if Demolisher is broken and by how much, but I think that most people will agree, if we assume it's broken now:

Take away OE, and Demolisher isn't broken, take away Intel Officer, and it's not broken, take away Ordinance upgrades and it's not broken. Take away ET and it's less broken.

I absolutely disagree that Demolisher is broken

I will agree that the DeMSU archetype is broken.