Modification: Mikemcmann lasers, -10 pts, "While attacking, if target is 'demolisher' it is instantly destroyed along with the title card."

And that's fair and also why I'd prefer an errata to the Demolisher title to deal with the issue directly. In my experience, silver bullet fixes rapidly compound and ruin your game* due to their uneven availability across all builds/factions and weird meta-wave effects they produce**. It's bad. Simply using errata/banning/restricting is often the better method in the long run for a game's health rather than silver bullets. It's less immediately popular, of course, but we get over it. Also I'm going to end my post with a dramatic bolded word as well!

Banana Phones

*Warmachine suffers from this tremendously and this is one of the things that caused our local once-vibrant Netrunner LCG scene to spectacularly implode to the point where it's basically dead now.

**If decks/lists include A to counter the BS deck B is including, then incidences of deck B will decrease, thus increasing your incentive to not run A any more because it's effectively a "dead card" against most other decks. Except LOOK OUT now that card A is less common, here comes deck B again being completely broken until the cycle keeps repeating itself. It's... stupid. You get a meta where your games are basically decided on whether you can counter the broken BS in the other deck or not.

Now I want to make a call while eating a banana. THANKS DUDE

Modification: Mikemcmann lasers, -10 pts, "While attacking, if target is 'demolisher' it is instantly destroyed along with the title card."

"Crew quarters:

Offensive retrofit, VSD only, 0 pts

You may equip a support team with cost 5 or less."

I really want navteams

FFG has a history of tweaking X-Wing if one ship or build really dominates the top tables at a tournament. That can take the form of later upgrades (like Autothrusters to counter all the 360 turrets) or an actual nerf (like what they did to the TIE Phantom).

Early data (and I know it is not the most valid, but it's what we got) shows that Demolisher is extremely prevalent at the top tables. Also damning is that the 2 best counters to Demolisher, Rhymer and Rieekan, are also there in abundance. This situation, either play with Demolisher or one of its counters to do well, is the kind that they have 'fixed' in the past with X-Wing.

The TIE Phantom nerf was indeed necessary.

The hesitation that I have for a Demolisher nerf is my wonder if the problem is one that is specific to Demolisher, or if it is just the lynchpin of the meta right now. Sure, Demolisher has always been good, but it only now seems to be heavily skewing the results. As others have mentioned, she's been with us since Wave 1. In the case of the TIE Phantom, it came out in Wave 4 and completely altered the meta in one fell swoop.

The nature of 'the meta' is for strong and popular builds to rise and fall. The awesome thing about the Clonisher list is that Clon took a ship (the Raider) that everyone was poo-poo-ing, and made it the rank-and-file of this DeMSU list.

I don't think that FFG should make balancing decisions based on what's essentially fashion - the constructed meta, rather than the structural meta - which will come and go.

but the issue isn't a high activation demo list the issue is demo in any list.

but the issue isn't a high activation demo list the issue is demo in any list.

That's an entirely separate argument.

I still can't tell.

you lost me dras. I was responding to the post right above mine.

Off topic for just a tad. It's been bothering me but I can't figure out what DeMSU stands for. From the conversation I understand what the build is but what does the MSU stands for?

Off topic for just a tad. It's been bothering me but I can't figure out what DeMSU stands for. From the conversation I understand what the build is but what does the MSU stands for?

DeMSU

"Demolisher, Multiple-Small-Units"

Its a Holdover from other Tabletop games, where it was often better to organise a Large Force in Multiple small Chunks instead of one massive force, (where a larger enemy shooting at them often meant they were completely overkilling a small group, but if you'd organised in larger groups, more would die)...

but the issue isn't a high activation demo list the issue is demo in any list.

Is it, though?

As I'm looking at the data (assuming the 4-ship Demo and DeMSU are exclusive categories), the 4-ship Demo list has reduced prevalence the more you go to the top tables, whereas the DeMSU has increasing prevalence.

Also, I think it's worthwhile to note that the Rhymerball is the real star, even if everyone is howling about Demolisher.

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

I honestly wonder how many tournaments this season (store championship and regionals) that Rhymer and Demolisher have made top 4 in. Heck even top 3. The answer is a lot. In comparison, there is no singular other upgrade that comes even close to that level of use. No title or Ace for that matter at the very least.

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

That may be so (I don't see that fact reflected in your top posting), but if 3/5 winners are Rhymerballs, and top 4 has 44% Rhymerball, compared to 25% DeMSU, then I'm still seeing evidence that Rhymer is king.

Since you have the complete data, as opposed to the distillation that you present, I'm happy take your word for it. (I must not be tempted into looking at the actual data!) I'm just curious how we might measure popularity vs. actual strength. It seems to me that the stuff that gets winnowed the more you get to the top, the more it's evidence of actual strength (player skill notwithstanding).

completely agree lyr

also when are we going to firm a PNW group?

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

I am sorry Mikael I am with shmitty here. When a card is used as much and is a part of so many lists that make it so high, there is an issue.

I honestly wonder how many tournaments this season (store championship and regionals) that Rhymer and Demolisher have made top 4 in. Heck even top 3. The answer is a lot. In comparison, there is no singular other upgrade that comes even close to that level of use. No title or Ace for that matter at the very least.

*SHOCK!!!* You're in disagreement with me?? That's never happened before!

Obviously Demolisher is an awesome title, and I'm not saying that it might not need a nerf. However, I'm not yet convinced by the data that I can see, because there's not enough control for crowd mentality. Regarding any anecdotal evidence from Store Championships, we need to take that with a grain of salt. Top 3 or 4 out of ~8-10 players... it would depend on how many were in the dataset to begin with.

The one thing that has me convinced is that the Empire is Superior!

But, you know, I already knew that.

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

That may be so (I don't see that fact reflected in your top posting), but if 3/5 winners are Rhymerballs, and top 4 has 44% Rhymerball, compared to 25% DeMSU, then I'm still seeing evidence that Rhymer is king.

Since you have the complete data, as opposed to the distillation that you present, I'm happy take your word for it. (I must not be tempted into looking at the actual data!) I'm just curious how we might measure popularity vs. actual strength. It seems to me that the stuff that gets winnowed the more you get to the top, the more it's evidence of actual strength (player skill notwithstanding).

I will post up my spreadsheet for all to see once Regionals season is complete. I know I'm not the only data nerd on here. I've definitely been finding the trends in the Top 8 and Top 4 to be far more interesting than the winners.

but the issue isn't a high activation demo list the issue is demo in any list.

Is it, though?

As I'm looking at the data (assuming the 4-ship Demo and DeMSU are exclusive categories), the 4-ship Demo list has reduced prevalence the more you go to the top tables, whereas the DeMSU has increasing prevalence.

Also, I think it's worthwhile to note that the Rhymerball is the real star, even if everyone is howling about Demolisher.

I think the difference though, is that rhymerball can be played around some, can be handled by squadrons of your own, what have you. There are a larger variety of methods to deal with it. DeMSU with first player, that triple tap is a foregone conclusion unless you brought your own five ship list or out bid your opponent. And that leads to frustruting/unenjoyable gaming experiences. There are great games that come down to the wire and you look across the table and say "wow well played man, I don't even know what I could have done differently" and thats good and everyone feels great. With DeMSU against some lists its like "Wow, well played but then as long as you didn't competely screw the pooch there was nothing I could do anyway" and that feels terrible for 50 percent of the people involved.

The telling thing to me is that only 1/3 of the fleets in the Top 8 don't have Demolisher. Ryhmer is no where near as prominent.

If 2/3rds of the fleets at the top tables are all using the same upgrade, maybe there is an issue with the power level of that upgrade.

That may be so (I don't see that fact reflected in your top posting), but if 3/5 winners are Rhymerballs, and top 4 has 44% Rhymerball, compared to 25% DeMSU, then I'm still seeing evidence that Rhymer is king.

Since you have the complete data, as opposed to the distillation that you present, I'm happy take your word for it. (I must not be tempted into looking at the actual data!) I'm just curious how we might measure popularity vs. actual strength. It seems to me that the stuff that gets winnowed the more you get to the top, the more it's evidence of actual strength (player skill notwithstanding).

I will post up my spreadsheet for all to see once Regionals season is complete. I know I'm not the only data nerd on here. I've definitely been finding the trends in the Top 8 and Top 4 to be far more interesting than the winners.

Thanks, I'd be very interested in getting a look at that spreadsheet.

If there's interest now I can convert it to Google Sheets and post it up where people can view it.

I think the difference though, is that rhymerball can be played around some, can be handled by squadrons of your own, what have you. There are a larger variety of methods to deal with it. DeMSU with first player, that triple tap is a foregone conclusion unless you brought your own five ship list or out bid your opponent. And that leads to frustruting/unenjoyable gaming experiences. There are great games that come down to the wire and you look across the table and say "wow well played man, I don't even know what I could have done differently" and thats good and everyone feels great. With DeMSU against some lists its like "Wow, well played but then as long as you didn't competely screw the pooch there was nothing I could do anyway" and that feels terrible for 50 percent of the people involved.

I hear you.

What we want is for the wins/losses to be determined by player skill, rather than (net-)builds and dice.

But in this discussion we're talking specifically about the Demolisher title card, not the DeMSU list. I'm sure that someone is going to find an Achilles heel of the DeMSU list other than outbidding, and I think there's already someone talking about that. But is it really Demolisher on her own that is breaking the game? If so, why hasn't the game been broken since Wave 1?

If there's interest now I can convert it to Google Sheets and post it up where people can view it.

Why do you hate my students??

I'm a statistician/algorithm guy by trade so I would appreciate the data, thanks!

Also, the "no shooty after engine techy" would do wonders. I actually tried this out a few times in some vassal sims: it makes "insta-melt ship" into "turn it into flaming hulk which can still return fire half the time OR had a chance to fire at me first" except for some extreme edge cases using a nav dial + token and turning hard (which always magically adds distance)

I'm sure that someone is going to find an Achilles heel of the DeMSU list other than outbidding, and I think there's already someone talking about that.

Reeikan

rieekan is imo not an actual counter. You're still losing a ship it just gets to go once. Its a mitigation not a counter again imo

I'm a statistician/algorithm guy by trade so I would appreciate the data, thanks!

Also, the "no shooty after engine techy" would do wonders. I actually tried this out a few times in some vassal sims: it makes "insta-melt ship" into "turn it into flaming hulk which can still return fire half the time OR had a chance to fire at me first" except for some extreme edge cases using a nav dial + token and turning hard (which always magically adds distance)

Nice to hear you tried it out.

Just from experience I can feel pretty confident in saying it would add a solid skill hump to using demo.

As second player, in a 3 activation list, I often find that by the time I "launch" demo at something I rarely use the engine techs (maybe 25% of the time?) to get in position to shoot because I don't have the luxury of activating first to get him out. I find you have to take some long range lumps, shoot long range, jump in and get a side arc and then ET to set up your escape. Sometimes, there is no escape because there is no triple tap melt cannon. As an almost exclusive second player user of demo it actually bothers me to hear about wholesale nerfs because in my use-case its fairly balanced and takes a great deal of manouver and skill to NOT have demo be an 88 point 1 round of shooting corpse.

Edit: Just wanted to add the example of attacking an MC80, where typically I will end my speed 3 move pretty much broadside-to-broadside and ET to get around the back (or even better, front). If I screw this up even a little or don't have my ISD as a present threat Demo is likely dead at the beginning of next round and I have an 88 point hole to climb out of.

I think the difference though, is that rhymerball can be played around some, can be handled by squadrons of your own, what have you. There are a larger variety of methods to deal with it. DeMSU with first player, that triple tap is a foregone conclusion unless you brought your own five ship list or out bid your opponent. And that leads to frustruting/unenjoyable gaming experiences. There are great games that come down to the wire and you look across the table and say "wow well played man, I don't even know what I could have done differently" and thats good and everyone feels great. With DeMSU against some lists its like "Wow, well played but then as long as you didn't competely screw the pooch there was nothing I could do anyway" and that feels terrible for 50 percent of the people involved.

I hear you.

What we want is for the wins/losses to be determined by player skill, rather than (net-)builds and dice.

But in this discussion we're talking specifically about the Demolisher title card, not the DeMSU list. I'm sure that someone is going to find an Achilles heel of the DeMSU list other than outbidding, and I think there's already someone talking about that. But is it really Demolisher on her own that is breaking the game? If so, why hasn't the game been broken since Wave 1?

I believe we are talking about demolisher as a result of rise of the DeMSU list, which coincidentaly answers your question about why it wasn't OP in wave 1. I think if you look the discussion as a whole, you'll find that most of the valid arguments regarding a Demolisher nerf center around its function within that archtype, and as such there is little point to trying to sever concerns about the DeMSU from the Title card. We talk about nerfing Demo because its the easiest knob to turn on that list, with the least far reaching consequences.

If its just demo in a vacuum, the card is fine. In most lists its just a little more difficult to play around. In DeMSU, there is a legitimate concern it might be broken. Thats the crux, imo, of this discussion. So far the jury is out, but I do believe there is more than enough evidence for us to take a long look at it.