.... But vsds and ISDs do soooooo yes lol

Sure, but i mean, VSD's are unlikely to be in position to use such an upgrade offensively. And an ISD costs too much to fit in the archtype this is intended to tweak.

I think what I might suggest is that Demolisher must make its attack before Engine Techs triggers. It would remain powerful, but by reducing the threat range it would no longer be as easy to completely bypass all defensive fire.

This

This is ALL I was suggesting 5 pages ago, a simple tweek from a FAQ. It won't prevent any Demo/CLONISHER/DeMSU builds, but just limit their potency a little. All it does is throttle down the demo effect a little, just as the last FAQ throttled back on advanced projecters a little by beefing up XI7s

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experience" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

We'll see. The re-emergence of the Demolisher craze is somewhat recent. Only a few of us have developed explicit counters, and I haven't seen any of them in the regionals lists thus far. If the end of the Regionals season comes and goes with nothing but Demolisher lists, I might concede it as overpowered. However, I'm very confident in my Rieekan B-Wing madness. My worst result against a Clonisher build was a 5-5 0 MoV loss where I got tabled, but took home more victory points than my opponent. That required Ninja to play a damned near flawless game. My other results have been in the 7-3 and 8-2 range.

Biggs has a rather nasty Defiance/triple TRC90 list that uses Rieekan as well. We'll both be taking our Rieekan lists to some Regionals in the Mid-Atlantic. I'll be heading to the West Virginia Regional, while Biggs is going to the one near Pittsburgh (and maybe the WV one as well from my understanding).

Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, however, only Rieekan rebels can handle this sort of list. That is the issue. It no longer becomes a balanced game when things like that occurs.

.... But vsds and ISDs do soooooo yes lol

Sure, but i mean, VSD's are unlikely to be in position to use such an upgrade offensively. And an ISD costs too much to fit in the archtype this is intended to tweak.

Ding ding ding, give Madaghmire a prize! He understands how fleet archetypes work!

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experience" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

We'll see. The re-emergence of the Demolisher craze is somewhat recent. Only a few of us have developed explicit counters, and I haven't seen any of them in the regionals lists thus far. If the end of the Regionals season comes and goes with nothing but Demolisher lists, I might concede it as overpowered. However, I'm very confident in my Rieekan B-Wing madness. My worst result against a Clonisher build was a 5-5 0 MoV loss where I got tabled, but took home more victory points than my opponent. That required Ninja to play a damned near flawless game. My other results have been in the 7-3 and 8-2 range.

Biggs has a rather nasty Defiance/triple TRC90 list that uses Rieekan as well. We'll both be taking our Rieekan lists to some Regionals in the Mid-Atlantic. I'll be heading to the West Virginia Regional, while Biggs is going to the one near Pittsburgh (and maybe the WV one as well from my understanding).

So your entire premise is on the fact that you are using Rieekan which we have already said is one of the direct counters. Stating that you have no issues is pointless.

Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, however, only Rieekan rebels can handle this sort of list. That is the issue. It no longer becomes a balanced game when things like that occurs.

You may recall a game a few nights ago where you destroyed a Imperial bomber list with DTO.

We spent a lot of time coming up with strategies for captain ICT to use but the end result was basically "run away and hope for a 5-5"

He was not equipped to deal with you so saying that " Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, " is blatantly false...

So your entire premise is on the fact that you are using Rieekan which we have already said is one of the direct counters. Stating that you have no issues is pointless.

Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, however, only Rieekan rebels can handle this sort of list. That is the issue. It no longer becomes a balanced game when things like that occurs.

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experience" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

We'll see. The re-emergence of the Demolisher craze is somewhat recent. Only a few of us have developed explicit counters, and I haven't seen any of them in the regionals lists thus far. If the end of the Regionals season comes and goes with nothing but Demolisher lists, I might concede it as overpowered. However, I'm very confident in my Rieekan B-Wing madness. My worst result against a Clonisher build was a 5-5 0 MoV loss where I got tabled, but took home more victory points than my opponent. That required Ninja to play a damned near flawless game. My other results have been in the 7-3 and 8-2 range.

Biggs has a rather nasty Defiance/triple TRC90 list that uses Rieekan as well. We'll both be taking our Rieekan lists to some Regionals in the Mid-Atlantic. I'll be heading to the West Virginia Regional, while Biggs is going to the one near Pittsburgh (and maybe the WV one as well from my understanding).

So your entire premise is on the fact that you are using Rieekan which we have already said is one of the direct counters. Stating that you have no issues is pointless.

Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, however, only Rieekan rebels can handle this sort of list. That is the issue. It no longer becomes a balanced game when things like that occurs.

not true lyr,

You may recall a game a few nights ago where you destroyed a Imperial bomber list with DTO.

We spent a lot of time coming up with strategies for captain ICT to use but the end result was basically "run away and hope for a 5-5"

He was not equipped to deal with you so saying that " Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, " is blatantly false...

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experience" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

We'll see. The re-emergence of the Demolisher craze is somewhat recent. Only a few of us have developed explicit counters, and I haven't seen any of them in the regionals lists thus far. If the end of the Regionals season comes and goes with nothing but Demolisher lists, I might concede it as overpowered. However, I'm very confident in my Rieekan B-Wing madness. My worst result against a Clonisher build was a 5-5 0 MoV loss where I got tabled, but took home more victory points than my opponent. That required Ninja to play a damned near flawless game. My other results have been in the 7-3 and 8-2 range.

Biggs has a rather nasty Defiance/triple TRC90 list that uses Rieekan as well. We'll both be taking our Rieekan lists to some Regionals in the Mid-Atlantic. I'll be heading to the West Virginia Regional, while Biggs is going to the one near Pittsburgh (and maybe the WV one as well from my understanding).

So your entire premise is on the fact that you are using Rieekan which we have already said is one of the direct counters. Stating that you have no issues is pointless.

Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, however, only Rieekan rebels can handle this sort of list. That is the issue. It no longer becomes a balanced game when things like that occurs.

not true lyr,

You may recall a game a few nights ago where you destroyed a Imperial bomber list with DTO.

We spent a lot of time coming up with strategies for captain ICT to use but the end result was basically "run away and hope for a 5-5"

He was not equipped to deal with you so saying that " Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, " is blatantly false...

He was equipped for. It. He just did a few mistakes. If he had not. Rushed in at my flagship and instead had stopped at 0 for the turn it would of been a completely different game.

not really, all his fighters would have still died then his caps would have been dismantled a turn or 2 later

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experience" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

We'll see. The re-emergence of the Demolisher craze is somewhat recent. Only a few of us have developed explicit counters, and I haven't seen any of them in the regionals lists thus far. If the end of the Regionals season comes and goes with nothing but Demolisher lists, I might concede it as overpowered. However, I'm very confident in my Rieekan B-Wing madness. My worst result against a Clonisher build was a 5-5 0 MoV loss where I got tabled, but took home more victory points than my opponent. That required Ninja to play a damned near flawless game. My other results have been in the 7-3 and 8-2 range.

Biggs has a rather nasty Defiance/triple TRC90 list that uses Rieekan as well. We'll both be taking our Rieekan lists to some Regionals in the Mid-Atlantic. I'll be heading to the West Virginia Regional, while Biggs is going to the one near Pittsburgh (and maybe the WV one as well from my understanding).

So your entire premise is on the fact that you are using Rieekan which we have already said is one of the direct counters. Stating that you have no issues is pointless.

Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, however, only Rieekan rebels can handle this sort of list. That is the issue. It no longer becomes a balanced game when things like that occurs.

not true lyr,

You may recall a game a few nights ago where you destroyed a Imperial bomber list with DTO.

We spent a lot of time coming up with strategies for captain ICT to use but the end result was basically "run away and hope for a 5-5"

He was not equipped to deal with you so saying that " Every Imperial list can take on whatever the rebels bring, " is blatantly false...

He was equipped for. It. He just did a few mistakes. If he had not. Rushed in at my flagship and instead had stopped at 0 for the turn it would of been a completely different game.

not really, all his fighters would have still died then his caps would have been dismantled a turn or 2 later

Here's a question: is the problem with Demolisher and the triple tap, or the fact that you can easily repeat the triple trap and get away?

What if instead of changing Demo, instead you changed Engine Techs to a discard effect? I think the U-turn for repositioning is at least a part of the equation for getting the most out of it.

Here's a question: is the problem with Demolisher and the triple tap, or the fact that you can easily repeat the triple trap and get away?

What if instead of changing Demo, instead you changed Engine Techs to a discard effect? I think the U-turn for repositioning is at least a part of the equation for getting the most out of it.

The problem is not engine techs, a lot of other ships use that upgrade without anybody raising questions regarding OPness.

In short, there is a general upgrade like engine techs that dont pose troubles in any but a single combination. There is one specific title upgrade that pose troubles, especially in conjunction with engine techs. The order of what to change and what not seems obvious.

What is most amusing about this whole thing?

That Clontrooper himself is in the process of building a fleet which destroys DeMSU builds but has a weakness to Ackbar.....

Quit moaning and stay one step ahead.

Its hilarious though.

SSSHHHH!!!

Why do I have this vision of Clon being a mad scientist like Kreiger on Archer?

You can't take a game like Armada, with all its moving parts and interconnected possibilities and just add in upgrades to counter one type of build.

So you want an upgrade that shoots down black dice to counter demo? What does that do to MC30s? MC30's aren't broken by any stretch of the imagination. They require a good deal more finesse and don't always come off, nerf them along with demo and you won't see them much anymore. That isn't good for the game!

The one that basically breaks the game rules by messing with your choice of activations is a pandoras box of problems. What if you put that thing on every ship you bring? Everybody will have to start bringing it on every ship they bring or risk being a spectator in their own game!

​Unintended Consequences

​

Frankly the only suggestion I've seen on here that even remotely

A: Fits with FFGs modus operandi re Armada so far

B: Has the least unintended consequences outside demolisher

C: Does not nerf Demo to the point that it snips it out of the game

Is FAQing away the ability to attack after engine techs. That single change is simple to execute, would cause the least amount of community gnashing and wailing, skillful Demo pilots will adjust and still get reasonable ROI on the ship but just having that ONE movement length taken away means demo needs to start its triple tap run just that little bit closer that can mean the difference between it going off or not. Whoops, Demo moved in and is juuuuust outside close range OR needed to use all the length of the speed 3 to get in range and couldn't afford a click to get that side arc in play OR started its run too close and got wrecked by rogue bombers.

The change doesn't terribly hurt second player demo, it still makes Clonisher lists viable but raises the skill requirement just a smidge and the risk of building your list around a finesse ship just a bit higher.

You can't take a game like Armada, with all its moving parts and interconnected possibilities and just add in upgrades to counter one type of build.

So you want an upgrade that shoots down black dice to counter demo? What does that do to MC30s? MC30's aren't broken by any stretch of the imagination. They require a good deal more finesse and don't always come off, nerf them along with demo and you won't see them much anymore. That isn't good for the game!

The one that basically breaks the game rules by messing with your choice of activations is a pandoras box of problems. What if you put that thing on every ship you bring? Everybody will have to start bringing it on every ship they bring or risk being a spectator in their own game!

​Unintended Consequences

​

The main reason I have not suggested any fixes. I am not sure where to go with any fixes.

And that's fair and also why I'd prefer an errata to the Demolisher title to deal with the issue directly. In my experience, silver bullet fixes rapidly compound and ruin your game* due to their uneven availability across all builds/factions and weird meta-wave effects they produce**. It's bad. Simply using errata/banning/restricting is often the better method in the long run for a game's health rather than silver bullets. It's less immediately popular, of course, but we get over it. Also I'm going to end my post with a dramatic bolded word as well!

Banana Phones

*Warmachine suffers from this tremendously and this is one of the things that caused our local once-vibrant Netrunner LCG scene to spectacularly implode to the point where it's basically dead now.

**If decks/lists include A to counter the BS deck B is including, then incidences of deck B will decrease, thus increasing your incentive to not run A any more because it's effectively a "dead card" against most other decks. Except LOOK OUT now that card A is less common, here comes deck B again being completely broken until the cycle keeps repeating itself. It's... stupid. You get a meta where your games are basically decided on whether you can counter the broken BS in the other deck or not.

Id simply eliminate the card demolisher. Replace it with something "similar" but well tested.

The shoot move paradigm of the game is simply the CORE mechanic. Busting that open has caused irreparable problems.

I am gonna play it to the "finish line" so to speak, to make a point. Even adding in new ships and cards doesn't inherently CHANGE the broken paradigm. In fact, flotillas will make the demo lists ridiculously more powerful. Ive been simulating with 8 activation - rhymer squads - demo combos, and its, frankly, broken nutso.....

Actually, I think aside from that Demolishers are used a lot according to regional data, its also probably there's only 4 ships currently, and the VSD is a pretty bad ship in comparison. That gives the general Imperial players 3 ships and one of them is a Raider. So if 63% of all builds are centralized around a Demolisher and the remaining probably around one or more ISD, I'd say it's pretty ok for now. If we're up to wave 5 and Demolishers are still the go to ship for majority of Imperial builds then I'd say we have a problem.

That's like X-Wing at wave 3 where you see B-Wings everywhere bring the most playable/competitive ship available at the time.

Victory Star Destroyer...no love.

Frankly the only suggestion I've seen on here that even remotely

A: Fits with FFGs modus operandi re Armada so far

B: Has the least unintended consequences outside demolisher

C: Does not nerf Demo to the point that it snips it out of the game

Is FAQing away the ability to attack after engine techs. That single change is simple to execute, would cause the least amount of community gnashing and wailing, skillful Demo pilots will adjust and still get reasonable ROI on the ship but just having that ONE movement length taken away means demo needs to start its triple tap run just that little bit closer that can mean the difference between it going off or not. Whoops, Demo moved in and is juuuuust outside close range OR needed to use all the length of the speed 3 to get in range and couldn't afford a click to get that side arc in play OR started its run too close and got wrecked by rogue bombers.

The change doesn't terribly hurt second player demo, it still makes Clonisher lists viable but raises the skill requirement just a smidge and the risk of building your list around a finesse ship just a bit higher.

still like the idea to only allow a single attack. It is a fundamental breaking of the rules. It's still worth 10 points, but isn't all of a sudden an auto include. The real issue to me is you pay a premium for red dice to their range, and although their damage is higher black dice, due to their range gives you a lower cost per die. Demo effectively gives you black dice at long range. Still worth ten points even if you can only attack once that turn

You can't just "ban" an upgrade from a game once it's in the wild.

That has crazy consequences all it's own.

the process is pretty much progressive with almost zero room for regression.

Take something like the XI7 buff to counter advanced projectors, they FAQd it in such a way that one interpretation trumped a different interpretation. They didn't just Ban advanced projectors because they made double redirect tokens OP and devalued XI7s completely, they gave a progressive solution where yes, you can take APs but XI7s are a direct counter. APs are still viable.

Can you imagine if FFG were suddenly like "sorry, i know you bought that Gladiator expansion but go ahead and throw that Demolisher card in the trash". yeah. no.

The Game designers want to add more, balanced choice, not take choices away.

Maybe we will see a carefully considered upgrade that is balanced for most cases that also happens to mitigate the demolisher advantage, or maybe an FAQ.

My thought is that if it's an upgrade it will be a high-cost, one-shot ability, sort of how cluster bombs are a highly situational squadron Ace deterent/counter. Maybe something that allows you to select an enemy ship at range 1-5 and set their speed dial, usable at any time, but expensive and one-shot. So maybe that speed 3 demo getting ready to set up that 3 tap is suddenly a speed 1 demo desperately trying to not be in a nasty arc. Or that speed 1 ISD is suddenly going speed 3 off the board lol (it would have to be REALLY expensive, maybe a weapons team that requires Q7 tractors, I don't know).

Still seems a simple FAQ would do it.

who is saying ban the upgrade?

Me

Mike...

Clearly things are on your head now...

You need to go all the way to Worlds... Win... And get permission to design the Counter-Card.