I'm so over the "Demo needs to be nerfed" whining. It's really not all that difficult to counter, I'll give you a few examples that have worked both while I was playing demo and playing against demo.

1) Underbid- self explanatory

2)Say "f$ck underbidding" and use the full 400 points. If someone is beating you with over a 10% point deficit, you might be the problem.

3) Don't charge in. This is SUICIDE against a demo list. Make them come to you, and make it suck to do so.

4)OBJECTIVES! Do you think any demo list wants to have to play superior positions, and place all their ships first? Or eat two broadsides from an advanced gunnery mc80? Or charge in on an ISD or two angled just right at the station in the far corner of the board?

5) Lay traps! If you listened to suggestion three, this might not be as cruicial, because if you haven't moved, the demo will fly off the board if he tries to get behind you. If not, leave some nasty ships of your own back there that can vaporize demo.

6) Threaten his other ships. Armada is a game of presenting your opponent with hard decisions. Make him decide between getting that triple tap and risk losing a ship or two of his own next round with a perfect shot you have lined up on one of his other ships.

7) Lastly, BOMBERS! The fireball is one thing that I think might ACTUALLY need a little nerf, as it excels against EVERYTHING. But if you have a decent sized rhymer/fireball protecting your flank from demo, he will be hesitant to fly right into it, as you will chew it down very quickly.

End Rant

I love you

also I think bomber command center will be better for rebels and the shield shunting on motti ISDs will be the in thing for imperials. Just my early predictions.

I'm so over the "Demo needs to be nerfed" whining. It's really not all that difficult to counter, I'll give you a few examples that have worked both while I was playing demo and playing against demo.

1) Underbid- self explanatory

2)Say "f$ck underbidding" and use the full 400 points. If someone is beating you with over a 10% point deficit, you might be the problem.

3) Don't charge in. This is SUICIDE against a demo list. Make them come to you, and make it suck to do so.

4)OBJECTIVES! Do you think any demo list wants to have to play superior positions, and place all their ships first? Or eat two broadsides from an advanced gunnery mc80? Or charge in on an ISD or two angled just right at the station in the far corner of the board?

5) Lay traps! If you listened to suggestion three, this might not be as cruicial, because if you haven't moved, the demo will fly off the board if he tries to get behind you. If not, leave some nasty ships of your own back there that can vaporize demo.

6) Threaten his other ships. Armada is a game of presenting your opponent with hard decisions. Make him decide between getting that triple tap and risk losing a ship or two of his own next round with a perfect shot you have lined up on one of his other ships.

7) Lastly, BOMBERS! The fireball is one thing that I think might ACTUALLY need a little nerf, as it excels against EVERYTHING. But if you have a decent sized rhymer/fireball protecting your flank from demo, he will be hesitant to fly right into it, as you will chew it down very quickly.

End Rant

Let's go by the numbers.

1) Losing a 10th or more of your list to counter a single build is silly. Sure you might face it but really? Most rebel lists can't afford to do that. Not without losing a lot of synergy.

2) sure, let them pick your objective. Use your full points. You don't need that tooled out ISD carrier right? It can only die in a single sitting from a clonisher.

3) you don't have to rush in. The Engine Tech Demolisher can stay out of Red range and get in for the strike in a single turn without you coming towards him.

4) this one is nice. . . What's your yellow again? One that will scare the demo player enough?

5) if you lose a 150+ point ship it won't matter if you take out the 98 point one. It can still turn bad fast.

6) so they trade 1 for 1.. . Not equitable for you. You literally have to threaten 2 at the same time with a single ship. That can get dicey.

7) actually, I will go about this like I do with Dodonna the Oppressor. Who cares about your bombers? I am speed 4,catche if you can and when you do you won't likely kill me fast enough before my priority target is gone.

Demo has to be played around. it means when moving forward moving in a \ away from demolisher so if he comes in at speed 4 maybe he misses that first attack as hes just out of range. Happens more than you would think honestly. a slight curve in forward movement, the kowzikowski shuffle as i call it is a 1 click left 1 click right, so your ship doesnt change facing it just shuffles to the left or right will easily through threat range estimation off.

you know what else throws it off, deploy at speed 1... drop to speed 0, guess what his whole fleet is now out of range on black dice and you are in range on red dice. demolisher comes in you eat 1 attack with no defense tokens (shouldn't one shot an AF+) and then go back to speed 2 and kill demolisher.... This also works, and is the play i use when playing my double ISD list.... If they dont go with demolisher first you can shoot him at red dice range and get some damage on him. In my case demolisher gets hit with 4 squadrons and 4 red dice and typically the double ram is no longer an option if i get an accuracy in the attack. you may even get him at blue dice range depending on how you deploy. I would have to reCAD out all the threat ranges and options to figure it out.

AHHHH jinking. I do that all the time. The issue is that you are dealing with a CR90 that can still deal with you. Sure it is better in Clontroper5's hands. Just like Dodonna the Oppressor is great in my hands, however clon's list is super easy to use and learn. It can take no more than 3 games to get used to it. My list is something I am still getting used to after 15ish games with it.

ive played it a few games now (more than 3) I don't get it. I mean I get it.... my opponents just see right threw it, sacrifice a ship for the greater good and then kill demolisher, and if i trade up like demolisher for an AF or MC-80, my Raiders cant finish them off and i lose hard. no offense to clone, but i feel the list is a major newb stomper and once more people wise up to it and learn how to play against the list without tailoring their fleet to do so, it wont have much success. Look at the GenCon special. It was the only way to play imps and yet, at worlds, it got crushed over and over again by standard balanced fleets because people just had more experience against it.

experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful.

What does this "Sacrifical ship" look like? A CR90? Can you explain to me how this stops Demolisher? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I just really don't understand this as a solution. Throwing a CR90 in it's path doesn't change anything, because the CR90 is not a threat to Demolisher. I'm trying to envision what this strategy looks like....

The CR90 is not a threat to Demolisher, no... What you're trying to do is make Demolisher deal with the CR90, because if it can't get past it and into Black range of a better Target, you're interrupting its attack run at worst, or exposing it to destruction by other elements of your fleet at best...

Demo has to be played around. it means when moving forward moving in a \ away from demolisher so if he comes in at speed 4 maybe he misses that first attack as hes just out of range. Happens more than you would think honestly. a slight curve in forward movement, the kowzikowski shuffle as i call it is a 1 click left 1 click right, so your ship doesnt change facing it just shuffles to the left or right will easily through threat range estimation off.

you know what else throws it off, deploy at speed 1... drop to speed 0, guess what his whole fleet is now out of range on black dice and you are in range on red dice. demolisher comes in you eat 1 attack with no defense tokens (shouldn't one shot an AF+) and then go back to speed 2 and kill demolisher.... This also works, and is the play i use when playing my double ISD list.... If they dont go with demolisher first you can shoot him at red dice range and get some damage on him. In my case demolisher gets hit with 4 squadrons and 4 red dice and typically the double ram is no longer an option if i get an accuracy in the attack. you may even get him at blue dice range depending on how you deploy. I would have to reCAD out all the threat ranges and options to figure it out.

AHHHH jinking. I do that all the time. The issue is that you are dealing with a CR90 that can still deal with you. Sure it is better in Clontroper5's hands. Just like Dodonna the Oppressor is great in my hands, however clon's list is super easy to use and learn. It can take no more than 3 games to get used to it. My list is something I am still getting used to after 15ish games with it.

ive played it a few games now (more than 3) I don't get it. I mean I get it.... my opponents just see right threw it, sacrifice a ship for the greater good and then kill demolisher, and if i trade up like demolisher for an AF or MC-80, my Raiders cant finish them off and i lose hard. no offense to clone, but i feel the list is a major newb stomper and once more people wise up to it and learn how to play against the list without tailoring their fleet to do so, it wont have much success. Look at the GenCon special. It was the only way to play imps and yet, at worlds, it got crushed over and over again by standard balanced fleets because people just had more experience against it.

experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful.

What does this "Sacrifical ship" look like? A CR90? Can you explain to me how this stops Demolisher? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I just really don't understand this as a solution. Throwing a CR90 in it's path doesn't change anything, because the CR90 is not a threat to Demolisher. I'm trying to envision what this strategy looks like....

I go into every game expecting and willing to lose one of my 2 ISDs. If i can lose an ISD to demolisher and still pull off a front attack im ok with it as I will then kill demolisher, and then my 8 fighters and other ISD will handle the rest. You cant walk into an armada game and go "my plan is to not lose any ships" the game doesn't work that way. Like warfare its about making the necessary sacrifices at the right times to win the battle. losing an ISD to demolisher is infuriating but If i take out demolisher, i can man handle the 4 raiders the rest of the game. Its not hard for an ISD to one shot a raider a turn, especially with some squadron support. I assume im going second so that means we are playing Contested outpost as you are presumably not dumb enough to pick superior positions in a list with 2 carriers and 8 stands... if you do, ill get more than enough tokens to cover the cost of my sacrificed ISD. If we play contested outpost there is a good change i get 5/6 if not 6/6 of the objective tokens, basically paying for my sacrificed ISD. Do you give an ISD advanced Gunnery so it can 1 shot 2 raiders a turn. really i just need 6 damage and 1 accuracy its not that hard to pull off with squadron support. Its worked out well for me so far and I will continue to sacrifice my ISD for the greater objective, play like tarkin, be like tarkin, that man gave 0 **** about resource or life costs if it meant winning. Imperial Admirals must be ruthless, and that means sacrificing an ISD to win a game.

Side note: Pick advanced gunnery, triple tapping from the front with 4black 2 red 3 times is a better option than contested outpost/minefields/superior positions.

Demo has to be played around. it means when moving forward moving in a \ away from demolisher so if he comes in at speed 4 maybe he misses that first attack as hes just out of range. Happens more than you would think honestly. a slight curve in forward movement, the kowzikowski shuffle as i call it is a 1 click left 1 click right, so your ship doesnt change facing it just shuffles to the left or right will easily through threat range estimation off.

you know what else throws it off, deploy at speed 1... drop to speed 0, guess what his whole fleet is now out of range on black dice and you are in range on red dice. demolisher comes in you eat 1 attack with no defense tokens (shouldn't one shot an AF+) and then go back to speed 2 and kill demolisher.... This also works, and is the play i use when playing my double ISD list.... If they dont go with demolisher first you can shoot him at red dice range and get some damage on him. In my case demolisher gets hit with 4 squadrons and 4 red dice and typically the double ram is no longer an option if i get an accuracy in the attack. you may even get him at blue dice range depending on how you deploy. I would have to reCAD out all the threat ranges and options to figure it out.

AHHHH jinking. I do that all the time. The issue is that you are dealing with a CR90 that can still deal with you. Sure it is better in Clontroper5's hands. Just like Dodonna the Oppressor is great in my hands, however clon's list is super easy to use and learn. It can take no more than 3 games to get used to it. My list is something I am still getting used to after 15ish games with it.

ive played it a few games now (more than 3) I don't get it. I mean I get it.... my opponents just see right threw it, sacrifice a ship for the greater good and then kill demolisher, and if i trade up like demolisher for an AF or MC-80, my Raiders cant finish them off and i lose hard. no offense to clone, but i feel the list is a major newb stomper and once more people wise up to it and learn how to play against the list without tailoring their fleet to do so, it wont have much success. Look at the GenCon special. It was the only way to play imps and yet, at worlds, it got crushed over and over again by standard balanced fleets because people just had more experience against it.

experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful.

What does this "Sacrifical ship" look like? A CR90? Can you explain to me how this stops Demolisher? I'm not trying to be snarky here, I just really don't understand this as a solution. Throwing a CR90 in it's path doesn't change anything, because the CR90 is not a threat to Demolisher. I'm trying to envision what this strategy looks like....

I go into every game expecting and willing to lose one of my 2 ISDs. If i can lose an ISD to demolisher and still pull off a front attack im ok with it as I will then kill demolisher, and then my 8 fighters and other ISD will handle the rest. You cant walk into an armada game and go "my plan is to not lose any ships" the game doesn't work that way. Like warfare its about making the necessary sacrifices at the right times to win the battle. losing an ISD to demolisher is infuriating but If i take out demolisher, i can man handle the 4 raiders the rest of the game. Its not hard for an ISD to one shot a raider a turn, especially with some squadron support. I assume im going second so that means we are playing Contested outpost as you are presumably not dumb enough to pick superior positions in a list with 2 carriers and 8 stands... if you do, ill get more than enough tokens to cover the cost of my sacrificed ISD. If we play contested outpost there is a good change i get 5/6 if not 6/6 of the objective tokens, basically paying for my sacrificed ISD. Do you give an ISD advanced Gunnery so it can 1 shot 2 raiders a turn. really i just need 6 damage and 1 accuracy its not that hard to pull off with squadron support. Its worked out well for me so far and I will continue to sacrifice my ISD for the greater objective, play like tarkin, be like tarkin, that man gave 0 **** about resource or life costs if it meant winning. Imperial Admirals must be ruthless, and that means sacrificing an ISD to win a game.

Side note: Pick advanced gunnery, triple tapping from the front with 4black 2 red 3 times is a better option than contested outpost/minefields/superior positions.

I absolutely cannot imagine how a list with 1st player bid and 5 activations is ever going to let his Gladiator Demolisher get into the front arc (at anything closer than long range) of your ISDs*. He has sacrficial ships too...(ie, his raiders) and they are far less precious than your ISD is in terms of expendability. Hell, he can lose 2 of them and still be ahead of you in total points and activations.

* assuming a 2 ISD list.

it is. So its what 6 deployments right?

I have 2 ISDs 8 Fighters.... I too have 6 deployments.....

he deploys first...... I get to drop my 2nd ISD after he drops demolisher...... See where this is going? I win deployment, and while he wins activations the only real threat to Motti ISDs is demolisher. In my particular list set up, once demo drops the raiders cant muscle through. especially if i shift to engineering commands and reverse the auto damage from APTs.

My list is 400pts. ive spend countless games/hours honing how to win with that list as second player... once again, experience.

it is. So its what 6 deployments right?

I have 2 ISDs 8 Fighters.... I too have 6 deployments.....

he deploys first...... I get to drop my 2nd ISD after he drops demolisher...... See where this is going? I win deployment, and while he wins activations the only real threat to Motti ISDs is demolisher. In my particular list set up, once demo drops the raiders cant muscle through. especially if i shift to engineering commands and reverse the auto damage from APTs.

My list is 400pts. ive spend countless games/hours honing how to win with that list as second player... once again, experience.

My experience with those four raiders is that they can and will kill the remaining ISD.

Our experiences differ which is ok. there are a ton of uncontrollable variables (dice, terrain) that make it not a guarantee.

In short, I am more than confident in my Demo match up including Clones list and Demo does not need to be nerfed as its not the problem, the over all synergy is the "problem". you can play around it, it just takes a lot of practice and thought. If they raised its cost it wont go away. If they neuter it, you wont see glads anymore. I am sure FFG doesn't want the GSD and the VSD to never see play, they need to make money and right now demolisher is making them money.

I can't speak to all lists and whatnot, but I fly a lot of fireball (currently 4 Firesprays, Rhymer and Dengar) and in my experience, yes, having good objectives going second is a big deal vs Demolisher.

I typically wait for the demolisher to "post up" in red range or just past, my bombers are usually a bit ahead of my ships. Just like an experienced demo pilot can post up just out of range to set up the 3 tap I'm pretty good at setting up my fireball to plink your demo before he charges in. My last command before your turn when you send the guy in is Squadron + token plus my raider sometimes throws squadron as well to activate the whole ball. No, 8 blue/1 black bomber die won't kill demo but he is dead for sure next squad phase cause he has to go through my ball so I will have plenty of range. I usually put my ISD out as bait for this move, with my demo lurking behind it. Yeah, you might kill the ISD (hasn't happened yet with this build) but your nearly 100pt demo WILL die and god help you if its precision strike you chose!

Also: Minefields. Lots of practice placing those buggers. Fireball wont kill demo on one activation...unless he's had to eat a mine getting into position.

Again, I think Demo as a title is fine, it's the archetype thats broken. How long did people cry that rhymer is broken, Ackbar is broken, Corvette swarms are OP with reikaan? Maybe all those things are actually true, but in my experience pick your broken mechanic of choice and make it work vs the other broken mechanics...imagine the game without all this crazy stuff? It would be boring. It would kinda suck. It would be 2 people pushing naked ships across a table at each other and hoping to roll better dice....yawn

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experince" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

fine..... personal experience

Our experiences differ which is ok. there are a ton of uncontrollable variables (dice, terrain) that make it not a guarantee.

Agreed. And for the record, I want to be wrong about Demolisher. I hope I am. So far...just don't see it.

Have you played Clon yet on Vassal or otherwise? I suggest giving it a try.

The overall synergy is part of the problem, yes, but the foundation of that problem is the move+shoot.

I want to be clear here, that, even in arguing that Demo is a problem, I don't think the solution is a reductive nerf. (Ie, an Errata to Demolisher). I think the solution is building a couple hard counters into the game (for each side and/or universal). Nothing ridiculous, mind you. "Title: <any ship or squadron>, when attacking Demolisher, roll 46 black dice, 19 blue and 33 red dice. All dice may be rerolled. You are also allowed to punch your opponent's dog or mom up to 2x each."

"experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful."

Looks like as far as the Regionals go "experience" is telling people to not play Rebels and go Imperial taking a Demolisher with a low bid if they hope to be a top player. Somehow I don't think that's a good thng for the health of the game system.

We'll see. The re-emergence of the Demolisher craze is somewhat recent. Only a few of us have developed explicit counters, and I haven't seen any of them in the regionals lists thus far. If the end of the Regionals season comes and goes with nothing but Demolisher lists, I might concede it as overpowered. However, I'm very confident in my Rieekan B-Wing madness. My worst result against a Clonisher build was a 5-5 0 MoV loss where I got tabled, but took home more victory points than my opponent. That required Ninja to play a damned near flawless game. My other results have been in the 7-3 and 8-2 range.

Biggs has a rather nasty Defiance/triple TRC90 list that uses Rieekan as well. We'll both be taking our Rieekan lists to some Regionals in the Mid-Atlantic. I'll be heading to the West Virginia Regional, while Biggs is going to the one near Pittsburgh (and maybe the WV one as well from my understanding).

I can only make boston now cuz of doggy duty so I am "all in" on my list for that weekend.

If I may cross-post from the Regional Data... Shmitty just had this to say:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/217480-regionals-data/page-3#entry2187250

This is, at the moment, reportedly, about a ~30% "problem".

Also I am generally against nerfs. I dont feel its bad enough that warrants nerfing.

clone figured out a way to mazimize demolisher in the most effective way possible. its no different than a triple ISD motti build or or OLP raider swarm + avenger. the list was created to excel at one very good thing (delivering Demolisher). That is also its greatest weakness, stop that or lessen that and the list comes undone. There are plenty of different optimized fleets that are still good. 4 AF ackbar is pretty redonks.

I can only make boston now cuz of doggy duty so I am "all in" on my list for that weekend.

Is that the Cambridge one? ****. I wanted to go to that one but it's my wife's birthday :-( Would have liked to play your Double ISD list there (and crushed it soundly...not with Clon).

If I may cross-post from the Regional Data... Shmitty just had this to say:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/217480-regionals-data/page-3#entry2187250

This is, at the moment, reportedly, about a ~30% "problem".

By that data, Rhymerballs are more lethal, capturing 2 of the 4 wins. Demolisher 5 ship won one and Rieekan Aces won the other.

If I may cross-post from the Regional Data... Shmitty just had this to say:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/217480-regionals-data/page-3#entry2187250

This is, at the moment, reportedly, about a ~30% "problem".

Fleets built around Demolisher are accounting for about 34% of the fleets in the Top 8 tables. Fleets that have a Demolisher account for about 65% of the fleets in Top 8.

Fleets built around Demolisher are accounting for about 31% of the Top 4 and those that merely have Demolisher are at 63%.

Flipped around, fleets that don't have Demolisher in them only make the Top 8 around 1/3 of the time.

It will be interesting if that trend continues.

That's part and parcel of why I put that up there...

.. What are we arguing here... That Demolisher is the issue (in all of its shapes and forms), or that Clonisher and its clone-builds are the issue?

Because honestly, I can't tell anymore.

This is actually why I don't have a solid argument to make one way or another... Because, Frankly... I don't even know what is being Advocated For/Against/With/Without...

Certainly, even though we're now starting to come up with some pseudo-empirical data based on its implied usefulness (thanks to Shmitty keeping track in that thread) we can start to build a picture... But the sample size is going to be clearly, clearly lacking until the End of July. Possibly until even November...

And even then, how can we keep it at empirical data, rather than anecdotal - Honestly, unless someone is going to organise a tournament where you can either remove player skill as a variable, or at least control that variable, we're going to be remaining anecdotal...

... Not that it really matters...

... I'll go back to the Rules sub-forum now... I swear, the Glowing Sky-Death-Ball hurts out here....

That's part and parcel of why I put that up there...

.. What are we arguing here... That Demolisher is the issue (in all of its shapes and forms), or that Clonisher and its clone-builds are the issue?

Because honestly, I can't tell anymore.

In my opinion, it has to be the first. Because Clonisher isn't as threatening or deadly without the triple tap. At least, it's no worse than what rebels can muster with a full-house of shrimps/90's. The jump from 10 to 16 dice on same target is a problem. A ship gets 60% more lethal with a 10 pt. title that has ZERO opportunity cost. Insidious? Who's insidious? Did someone say insidious?

Then why aren't you advocating a nerf on all Ackbar fleets that involve 4+ Ships? You're generally paying ~10 points a ship, for an increase of 50-100-150% per arc? I mean. That's some interesting bits there, isn't it... Paying a 10 point tax to increase lethality of a ship by 150%....

(Yes, this is intentionally absurd. This is what happens when I stay out in the Sun too long........)

That's part and parcel of why I put that up there...

.. What are we arguing here... That Demolisher is the issue (in all of its shapes and forms), or that Clonisher and its clone-builds are the issue?

Because honestly, I can't tell anymore.

In my opinion, it has to be the first. Because Clonisher isn't as threatening or deadly without the triple tap. At least, it's no worse than what rebels can muster with a full-house of shrimps/90's. The jump from 10 to 16 dice on same target is a problem. A ship gets 60% more lethal with a 10 pt. title that has ZERO opportunity cost. Insidious? Who's insidious? Did someone say insidious?

I'm of the exact opposite opinion. Very few of the titles have an opportunity cost. They're just straight upgrades. Jaina's Light, Foresight, Yavaris, Salvation, and so on all just work. They're not as easy to make work, but they are all cheaper and they all work none the less. Demolisher without last activation and/or without first player is simply not scary to me. Yes, it's in a lot of lists, but it's not the reason 2 out of those 3 Imperial lists were winners. It's especially not the case with the two ship list.

FFG has a history of tweaking X-Wing if one ship or build really dominates the top tables at a tournament. That can take the form of later upgrades (like Autothrusters to counter all the 360 turrets) or an actual nerf (like what they did to the TIE Phantom).

Early data (and I know it is not the most valid, but it's what we got) shows that Demolisher is extremely prevalent at the top tables. Also damning is that the 2 best counters to Demolisher, Rhymer and Rieekan, are also there in abundance. This situation, either play with Demolisher or one of its counters to do well, is the kind that they have 'fixed' in the past with X-Wing.