Let me try to sum it up:

"Broken" Demo build: Glad-I, Engine Techs, Intel Officer, Ord Experts, Exp Launchers, Demolisher (56+8+7+4+13+10=98 pts), under the command of Screed. First player, five activations.

(you can of course do and ACM variety, but then you get slightly less utility from both Ordnance Experts and Intel Officer, so its not quite the same thing)

Taken in isolation all the upgrades are perfectly fine. Its the combination, and especially the shoot-after-move ability of Demolisher, combined with the other upgrades that make it problematic.

Turn X: You jump in (possibly as the very last ship to move given your high activation count), preferably from BEYOND red range (sorry Ackbar), using pseudo-speed 4. Which in this case is even better than true speed 4, because it makes it insanely easy to set up that double arc for next turn. Using your 2 red, 4 black, with re-rolls and Screen, you Intel his brace (only Nebs have double braces, but they have such vulnerable side arcs, so Intel isn't needed). If he braces he might "only" be taking a fistful of damage, but then the brace is gone. If he doesn't brace, its a huge amount of damage.

Turn X+1: Double arc. If the brace isn't gone yet, it gets Inteled again...which essentially means only 1 brace against 3 attacks. 2 red + 4 black, then 4 black. With re-rolls and Screed (some players might even sneak in a CF here).

The only things that can survive and attack like that is the ISD and the MC80. But even they do not always survive. I've killed a completely fresh MC80 with a triple-tap (ACM variety). Granted, my dice were hot, but it goes to show how mighty this combination is.

To compare: The closest thing you can get is an MC30, kitted out the same way (sans the Engine Techs). You could even toss on XI7s or TRCs (Scout only) for further shenanigans. But even a Trop MC30 with full kit and XI7s don't get that triple tap. And that's a HUGE, HUGE difference. A double trap simply cannot reliably kill tough prey. A triple tap can. Furthermore, while the MC30 has native speed 4, it's nowhere near as easy to set up for double-arcing anything small.

Can the Demo be defended against? Sure. If you make a good list for that purpose, AND you play well. But generally speaking, you cannot prevent a 1st player Demolisher from jumping in and killing whatever it wants to kill. All you can do is to set up a retaliation strike, to either take out Demo or to punish his other ships for the triple-tap.

So is Demo OP? Given it's power, it's ease of use, and how hard it is to deal with, I think it is.

I'm hesitant to nerf Demo, as it is one of the only genuinely powerful options Imps Have. We need Wave 3 or Wave 4 to give them some vague alternative that balances he fleets.

I'm hesitant to nerf Demo, as it is one of the only genuinely powerful options Imps Have. We need Wave 3 or Wave 4 to give them some vague alternative that balances he fleets.

Ehm, no. Imps are fine and viable without a Demo, its not that this gamebreaking mechanic is desperately needed for us to keep up with rebels. I have seen more imperial fleets without demo than with him, and they work great - we dont need the only ship in the game that defies game mechanics.

I'm hesitant to nerf Demo, as it is one of the only genuinely powerful options Imps Have. We need Wave 3 or Wave 4 to give them some vague alternative that balances he fleets.

Ehm, no. Imps are fine and viable without a Demo, its not that this gamebreaking mechanic is desperately needed for us to keep up with rebels. I have seen more imperial fleets without demo than with him, and they work great - we dont need the only ship in the game that defies game mechanics.

We also need to remember where they Demo can from: wave 1.

I'm pretty sure it was designed as a way to give Imps some much-needed mobile firepower*. Up until this point thy only have the Vic! So FFG probably figured 10 pts was a good price for a strong title card that would let the GSD get it's black dice into firing position. I'd say good intentions, flawed concept.

* Much like the created Rhymer to give bombers the ability to effectively deal with slippery rebel ships.

I played against projection experts and left an mc-80 at 1hp after double ram and then died..... with advanced gunnery fronts so 2reds 4 blacks ordance experts screed. I did 10-12-12 damage.

The double tap happens due to initiative. engine techs let it get in there and obviously demolisher lets it shoot once for a triple tap. Turns out you can engine techs + expanded launchers any number of GSDs, underbid well enough and you will certainly get a double tap off every turn if you want. Demolisher enables the triple tap.

I have always found that traps and squadrons kill demolisher, either when playing it or playing against it. Force your opponent to come into a subpar situation. Does he kill a ship only to have 2 more ships light up demolisher? Does he fly into a swarm of x-wings and b-wings? At the very least the bomber command center will let rebels have some really nasty bee hives for demolisher. For the imperial players... you have the rhymer ball.

I stopped play demolisher as most of my opponents had figured it out and its effectiveness went way down.

Also, play Rieekan. Lost a ship before it activates......whatever take demolisher in return anyway and then focus on the rest of the fleet. I don't play rebels, but if i did id play Rieekan 100% competitively.

I played against projection experts and left an mc-80 at 1hp after double ram and then died..... with advanced gunnery fronts so 2reds 4 blacks ordance experts screed. I did 10-12-12 damage.

The double tap happens due to initiative. engine techs let it get in there and obviously demolisher lets it shoot once for a triple tap. Turns out you can engine techs + expanded launchers any number of GSDs, underbid well enough and you will certainly get a double tap off every turn if you want. Demolisher enables the triple tap.

I have always found that traps and squadrons kill demolisher, either when playing it or playing against it. Force your opponent to come into a subpar situation. Does he kill a ship only to have 2 more ships light up demolisher? Does he fly into a swarm of x-wings and b-wings? At the very least the bomber command center will let rebels have some really nasty bee hives for demolisher. For the imperial players... you have the rhymer ball.

I stopped play demolisher as most of my opponents had figured it out and its effectiveness went way down.

Also, play Rieekan. Lost a ship before it activates......whatever take demolisher in return anyway and then focus on the rest of the fleet. I don't play rebels, but if i did id play Rieekan 100% competitively.

But this just kinda turns out to be supporting evidence for the case against Demo, don't you think? If Rieekan is the only thing that stops Demo, that's a problem. I'm also not sold on your squadron solution. Not saying it can't happen, of course. But if Demolisher can move at effective speed 4, you need a lot of squadrons with speed and a lot of commands to keep up with him, because squadrons won't be able to barnacle a small ship moving that fast. And if Demo can triple tap your carrier (as mathed out by Green Knight, upto and including MC80's), then your squadron counterattack gets shut down fasty-mcfast (except for Rhymerballs).

I really feel like Greenie hit it on the head. The issue, IMO, is not the Demolisher title, per se, but the Demolisher build/DeMSU archtype that we are seeing. Its definetely a little too good, but you know what, maybe Rhymer is a little too good and I'd fight tooth and nail to keep him as he is. Because Rhymer has counterplay. There is very little counterplay to DeMSU once the fleets are choosen and its deployment time. It feels freaking terrible being on the other side of it and knowing your best available decision is to try and make it eat something of lesser value to you, but its gonna eat SOMETHING, because its too manuevearable, and has too much dice manipulation. Everything I've read about handling demolisher is like guarding Michael Jordan, its just damage control. Except underbidding, which is proactive, but guesswork.

I'm hoping that the flotillas create a situation where this archtype becomes more difficult to work, becuse bombers will become more effective, because flotillas have scatter, because fighter buils will suddenly have more activations. I'm hoping that bringing too manu flotillas to pad activations in a non fighter scene will simply lead to too many empty activations for MSU builds to run them reliably. But it could just as easily lead to MSU builds with a real squadron presence.

I'm honestly not sure what should be done, if anything. If this were a video game it would be clear that nerf would be called for on the next balance pass, because its simply having too much influence on the game right now. 41 point bid at louisville? Thats not a good direction for the game to be going in, where it makes sense to leave 10 percent of your alloted points on the shelf.

Don't underestimate A-Wings ability to **** all over ships with support. When I say use squadrons its implied you will be supporting them, if you are not then you wasted a ton of points to begin with. I am fully aware of what demolisher is capable of. I crutched the **** out of it in wave 1 and have played it a bit in wave2. sure its nasty.

Rieekan isnt the only thing. If demo doesnt get an accuracy you can brace on a MC-80 and projection experts spreads the love. Hell take Electronic counter measures and it wont matter. got 4 black 2 red..... im gonna brace it no matter what. next turn ill brace the first attack and burn the bracer permantly. if i live and can destroy demo after that the game is mine. this is literally what happened to me saturday and I was playing demolisher. Its sneaky good.

Rieekan is probably the most competitive rebel admiral at the moment. Ackbar is solid but easy to play around especially with raiders and demolisher.

I still think Rhymer is way more busted than demolisher which is why i still crutch him in Wave 2.

Also wanted to throw in a quick comment about comparing Demolisher to MC30, as there seems to be a lot of that.

A Demolisher triple-tapping is throwing 16 dice before CF commands. (12 black, re-rollable)

An MC30 (assuming EL) is throwing 10 before CF commands. (9 black, re-rollable)

That's not even close to the same thing. The MC30's attack will eat raiders, corvettes, other nebs, and possibly Glads, other shrimps and whales (depending on how they are kitted out). But not an MC80, Vic, or ISD.

But Demolisher will eat everything...possible even an ISD, as GK pointed out. It's also worth noting it is much easier for Demo to line up his shots and maintain safe movement speed than it is for MC30 to.

Don't underestimate A-Wings ability to **** all over ships with support. When I say use squadrons its implied you will be supporting them, if you are not then you wasted a ton of points to begin with. I am fully aware of what demolisher is capable of. I crutched the **** out of it in wave 1 and have played it a bit in wave2. sure its nasty.

Rieekan isnt the only thing. If demo doesnt get an accuracy you can brace on a MC-80 and projection experts spreads the love. Hell take Electronic counter measures and it wont matter. got 4 black 2 red..... im gonna brace it no matter what. next turn ill brace the first attack and burn the bracer permantly. if i live and can destroy demo after that the game is mine. this is literally what happened to me saturday and I was playing demolisher. Its sneaky good.

Rieekan is probably the most competitive rebel admiral at the moment. Ackbar is solid but easy to play around especially with raiders and demolisher.

I still think Rhymer is way more busted than demolisher which is why i still crutch him in Wave 2.

2) Did you not read the succinct explanation above of how Intel Officer twice in a row means you're only bracing one attack of three?

3) If you're taking ECM and AP, you're taking literally the most defensible ship in the game. If the most defensible ship in the game is the only one with a chance to survive an attack that is the result, not of poor play on your part, but of average play on your opponent's, that's some busted ass ****.

Don't underestimate A-Wings ability to **** all over ships with support. When I say use squadrons its implied you will be supporting them, if you are not then you wasted a ton of points to begin with. I am fully aware of what demolisher is capable of. I crutched the **** out of it in wave 1 and have played it a bit in wave2. sure its nasty.

Rieekan isnt the only thing. If demo doesnt get an accuracy you can brace on a MC-80 and projection experts spreads the love. Hell take Electronic counter measures and it wont matter. got 4 black 2 red..... im gonna brace it no matter what. next turn ill brace the first attack and burn the bracer permantly. if i live and can destroy demo after that the game is mine. this is literally what happened to me saturday and I was playing demolisher. Its sneaky good.

Rieekan is probably the most competitive rebel admiral at the moment. Ackbar is solid but easy to play around especially with raiders and demolisher.

I still think Rhymer is way more busted than demolisher which is why i still crutch him in Wave 2.

Demo doesn't need accuracies. It only cares about your brace, which you can use vs 1 of 3 attacks.

Attack 1: 2 red, 4 black

- Ord Experts, Screed + Intel officer

Attack 2: 2 red, 4 black

- Ord Experts, Screed (usually, spending a red to ensure a double black) + Intel officer

Attack 3: 4 black

- Ord Experts

Against anything but a fresh ISD/MC80, this has a VERY HIGH chance of killing a ship. Against a fresh ISD/MC80 you have a chance, but only with a good bit of luck. So better soften it up a bit first, or deal with the little fish.

Note: there could be 1 (rarely more) CF in the mix as well

Don't underestimate A-Wings ability to **** all over ships with support. When I say use squadrons its implied you will be supporting them, if you are not then you wasted a ton of points to begin with. I am fully aware of what demolisher is capable of. I crutched the **** out of it in wave 1 and have played it a bit in wave2. sure its nasty.

Rieekan isnt the only thing. If demo doesnt get an accuracy you can brace on a MC-80 and projection experts spreads the love. Hell take Electronic counter measures and it wont matter. got 4 black 2 red..... im gonna brace it no matter what. next turn ill brace the first attack and burn the bracer permantly. if i live and can destroy demo after that the game is mine. this is literally what happened to me saturday and I was playing demolisher. Its sneaky good.

Rieekan is probably the most competitive rebel admiral at the moment. Ackbar is solid but easy to play around especially with raiders and demolisher.

I still think Rhymer is way more busted than demolisher which is why i still crutch him in Wave 2.

This is the issue with vaccuum theorizing this kind of stuff.

-the Carrier eventually needs to do something beside squadron commands

-the problem is not Demo's accuracy. It's intel officer. Use your brace on the first attack? Thanks. Gone.

-Command Pickle needs ECM over AP in order to deal with (and because of) XI7's, which leave him vulnerable to Demolisher. Assault Pickle gets the double-D, so probably has both (ECM and AP), but then you're not really running a squadron build? (well maybe you are I suppose, Sqd 3 is still good). But, even if have a double-D assault pickle, so what? Demolisher just goes and finds someone else to 1-shot and then sets up in your front (or rear) arc, because he has movement 4 and you have movement 2.

I can deal with Rhymer without specializing my fleet to it (ie, making an "all comers" list). I can't do the same with Demo.

I mean if you are truly worried about losing to demolisher than mitigate it to maximum effect. Calling to nerf it really isn't the answer as was already pointed out that demolisher isn't really the problem, its the underbidding MSU lists.

I've also found and know a lot people I've talked to feel that any homebrew list that is fully developed and piloted by its creator will be far superior than any netdeck list. I bet if Clone posted his list up the internet would have said its bad with a few people looking at it and seeing the big picture, yet here we are crying about demolisher again.

I know ive been told my double ISD list is garbage and yet ive won multiple tournaments with it against people I know who were metagaming against me..... Why? Because I made the list myself, I know why every upgrade is there, i know why the objectives are picked, I know in what order my command dials need to be set. I spent count hours on the toilet in battlescribe making variantions to the same core list over and over again, discussed it with my local friends, and played variant after variant taking note of what worked what didn't. My list now is vastly different from my original list, yet at its core its still a double ISD Motti fighter swarm.

Many gamers try to netdeck, especially with FFG. It works in X-Wing, it works in all the LCGs, and I am sure it works in Imperial Assault. Armada has too many variables netdecking cant attribute too. Knowing how to move and how to issue commands will win you games in bad match ups. being outmatched and watching my opponent issue Concentrate firepower tokens turn after turn because thats what the article he read told him to do instead of engineering to survive my bombing runs cost him the game. Armada isn't a game where netdecking will carry you to the overall win. Sure you will do well if you copy/paste a list but without knowing the intimate details of each upgrade choice and each objective choice, eventually you will be bested. I am interested to see how many regionals are won with non-typical lists.

To me the biggest sign Demolisher may need adjusting is the results from Regionals. Currently 3 out of 4 Imperial players use Demolisher. No one takes a fleet with a non-Demolisher Gladiator unless they are playing more than one.

Overall the Imperials have dominated the top tables at the 4 Regionals that we have results reported with 88% of the top 4 finishers being Imperials. Of those about 80% contain Demolisher.

Demolisher shows up in 45% of the total fleets at Regionals but is in 80% of the top 4? If that trend continues, there may be good evidence that a change is needed.

Don't underestimate A-Wings ability to **** all over ships with support. When I say use squadrons its implied you will be supporting them, if you are not then you wasted a ton of points to begin with. I am fully aware of what demolisher is capable of. I crutched the **** out of it in wave 1 and have played it a bit in wave2. sure its nasty.

Rieekan isnt the only thing. If demo doesnt get an accuracy you can brace on a MC-80 and projection experts spreads the love. Hell take Electronic counter measures and it wont matter. got 4 black 2 red..... im gonna brace it no matter what. next turn ill brace the first attack and burn the bracer permantly. if i live and can destroy demo after that the game is mine. this is literally what happened to me saturday and I was playing demolisher. Its sneaky good.

Rieekan is probably the most competitive rebel admiral at the moment. Ackbar is solid but easy to play around especially with raiders and demolisher.

I still think Rhymer is way more busted than demolisher which is why i still crutch him in Wave 2.

1) You're talking about Advanced Projectors, not Projection Experts.

2) Did you not read the succinct explanation above of how Intel Officer twice in a row means you're only bracing one attack of three?

3) If you're taking ECM and AP, you're taking literally the most defensible ship in the game. If the most defensible ship in the game is the only one with a chance to survive an attack that is the result, not of poor play on your part, but of average play on your opponent's, that's some busted ass ****.

Another issue that the MC30 has is that it needs to be first. The reason for this is because whatever you want to strike will run away most times. While Demolisher would like to go first it is not always the end all be all. If it picked its targets it can still get the job done better.

In the end, the culprit is more Engine Techs than Demolisher. You are essentially giving a hard hitting ship the movement of a CR90 so that it can stay out of threat range of everything.

Don't underestimate A-Wings ability to **** all over ships with support. When I say use squadrons its implied you will be supporting them, if you are not then you wasted a ton of points to begin with. I am fully aware of what demolisher is capable of. I crutched the **** out of it in wave 1 and have played it a bit in wave2. sure its nasty.

Rieekan isnt the only thing. If demo doesnt get an accuracy you can brace on a MC-80 and projection experts spreads the love. Hell take Electronic counter measures and it wont matter. got 4 black 2 red..... im gonna brace it no matter what. next turn ill brace the first attack and burn the bracer permantly. if i live and can destroy demo after that the game is mine. this is literally what happened to me saturday and I was playing demolisher. Its sneaky good.

Rieekan is probably the most competitive rebel admiral at the moment. Ackbar is solid but easy to play around especially with raiders and demolisher.

I still think Rhymer is way more busted than demolisher which is why i still crutch him in Wave 2.

This is the issue with vaccuum theorizing this kind of stuff.

-the Carrier eventually needs to do something beside squadron commands

-the problem is not Demo's accuracy. It's intel officer. Use your brace on the first attack? Thanks. Gone.

-Command Pickle needs ECM over AP in order to deal with (and because of) XI7's, which leave him vulnerable to Demolisher. Assault Pickle gets the double-D, so probably has both (ECM and AP), but then you're not really running a squadron build? (well maybe you are I suppose, Sqd 3 is still good). But, even if have a double-D assault pickle, so what? Demolisher just goes and finds someone else to 1-shot and then sets up in your front (or rear) arc, because he has movement 4 and you have movement 2.

I can deal with Rhymer without specializing my fleet to it (ie, making an "all comers" list). I can't do the same with Demo.

Demo has to be played around. it means when moving forward moving in a \ away from demolisher so if he comes in at speed 4 maybe he misses that first attack as hes just out of range. Happens more than you would think honestly. a slight curve in forward movement, the kowzikowski shuffle as i call it is a 1 click left 1 click right, so your ship doesnt change facing it just shuffles to the left or right will easily through threat range estimation off.

you know what else throws it off, deploy at speed 1... drop to speed 0, guess what his whole fleet is now out of range on black dice and you are in range on red dice. demolisher comes in you eat 1 attack with no defense tokens (shouldn't one shot an AF+) and then go back to speed 2 and kill demolisher.... This also works, and is the play i use when playing my double ISD list.... If they dont go with demolisher first you can shoot him at red dice range and get some damage on him. In my case demolisher gets hit with 4 squadrons and 4 red dice and typically the double ram is no longer an option if i get an accuracy in the attack. you may even get him at blue dice range depending on how you deploy. I would have to reCAD out all the threat ranges and options to figure it out.

I can deal with Rhymer without specializing my fleet to it (ie, making an "all comers" list). I can't do the same with Demo.

Remember that most good players will be trying to play the counter to the prevalent build

I'm very very curious to see what the flotillas do to this paradigm. Imagine this: two GR-75 combat retrofits and four H-6s. That's probably close to the same points as the tooled up Demolisher (assuming about 20 per transport). Maybe throw in a bomber command center on one of those GR-75. Throw those directly in Demolisher's path. Demolisher is actually going to have a hard time killing them with the scatter tokens. Meanwhile, the H-6s are fast enough to remain a multi-turn threat to Demolisher. It's not perfect, but it's better than the current solution of doing a Rieekan bear hug to take Demolisher down with one of your own ships.

Demo has to be played around. it means when moving forward moving in a \ away from demolisher so if he comes in at speed 4 maybe he misses that first attack as hes just out of range. Happens more than you would think honestly. a slight curve in forward movement, the kowzikowski shuffle as i call it is a 1 click left 1 click right, so your ship doesnt change facing it just shuffles to the left or right will easily through threat range estimation off.

you know what else throws it off, deploy at speed 1... drop to speed 0, guess what his whole fleet is now out of range on black dice and you are in range on red dice. demolisher comes in you eat 1 attack with no defense tokens (shouldn't one shot an AF+) and then go back to speed 2 and kill demolisher.... This also works, and is the play i use when playing my double ISD list.... If they dont go with demolisher first you can shoot him at red dice range and get some damage on him. In my case demolisher gets hit with 4 squadrons and 4 red dice and typically the double ram is no longer an option if i get an accuracy in the attack. you may even get him at blue dice range depending on how you deploy. I would have to reCAD out all the threat ranges and options to figure it out.

AHHHH jinking. I do that all the time. The issue is that you are dealing with a CR90 that can still deal with you. Sure it is better in Clontroper5's hands. Just like Dodonna the Oppressor is great in my hands, however clon's list is super easy to use and learn. It can take no more than 3 games to get used to it. My list is something I am still getting used to after 15ish games with it.

I'm very very curious to see what the flotillas do to this paradigm. Imagine this: two GR-75 combat retrofits and four H-6s. That's probably close to the same points as the tooled up Demolisher (assuming about 20 per transport). Maybe throw in a bomber command center on one of those GR-75. Throw those directly in Demolisher's path. Demolisher is actually going to have a hard time killing them with the scatter tokens. Meanwhile, the H-6s are fast enough to remain a multi-turn threat to Demolisher. It's not perfect, but it's better than the current solution of doing a Rieekan bear hug to take Demolisher down with one of your own ships.

I think the GR75 is going to put vanilla X Wings back on the map. Now that 3/8 miss chance doesn't look so bad with rerolls. Enemy fighters? Chew em up. Bombing runs? No problem. Escort is then icing on the cake and speed 3 is about all it needs to make sure Demolisher isn't running away with the cookies.

I'm very very curious to see what the flotillas do to this paradigm. Imagine this: two GR-75 combat retrofits and four H-6s. That's probably close to the same points as the tooled up Demolisher (assuming about 20 per transport). Maybe throw in a bomber command center on one of those GR-75. Throw those directly in Demolisher's path. Demolisher is actually going to have a hard time killing them with the scatter tokens. Meanwhile, the H-6s are fast enough to remain a multi-turn threat to Demolisher. It's not perfect, but it's better than the current solution of doing a Rieekan bear hug to take Demolisher down with one of your own ships.

To me the biggest sign Demolisher may need adjusting is the results from Regionals. Currently 3 out of 4 Imperial players use Demolisher. No one takes a fleet with a non-Demolisher Gladiator unless they are playing more than one.

Overall the Imperials have dominated the top tables at the 4 Regionals that we have results reported with 88% of the top 4 finishers being Imperials. Of those about 80% contain Demolisher.

Demolisher shows up in 45% of the total fleets at Regionals but is in 80% of the top 4? If that trend continues, there may be good evidence that a change is needed.

Im trying my best to be in that top 4 of the North east regionals with imperials without demolisher.

Also I will say it.... Imperials are easier to play. What is our plan, get you on our front arc.... DONE. They don't require much finese and their fighters are swarmy (literally) and rhymer makes even a massive TIE Fighter swarm scare ships. You can simply take 2 ISDs, rhymer+ 11 TIE Fighters, Motti set for speed 1 and just slowly roll up the table destroying anything that wanders in front of you.

Rebels require much more finese. you need to know how to toilet bowl your fleet. you need to synergize your fleet. Imperials are designed to be stand alone ships, they are the equivalent of modern day air craft carriers. floating cities essentially. the rebels are not the same, the rebels are Somalian priates, they almost killed tom hanks. The rebels need to work like the old WWII German Wulfpacks. they out number the foe, hit it from all sides and make the necessary sacrifices to win the game war. Rieekan CR90s getting in front of an isd so it cant move to the scenario location, while the rest of your fleet gets behind it will infuriate your opponent. Sure Rieekan isn't flashy, he doesn't have dodannas ball breaking ability, or let you roll a redonk amount of red dice like Ackbar. Hes not flashy, but he is easily in my eyes the best Rebel Admiral if you want to win a tournament right now. You have to synergize your list around him. Synergy is the rebels strength, self reliance is the imperial strength. Build your fleets to those theories and you would be surprised what happens.

I'm very very curious to see what the flotillas do to this paradigm. Imagine this: two GR-75 combat retrofits and four H-6s. That's probably close to the same points as the tooled up Demolisher (assuming about 20 per transport). Maybe throw in a bomber command center on one of those GR-75. Throw those directly in Demolisher's path. Demolisher is actually going to have a hard time killing them with the scatter tokens. Meanwhile, the H-6s are fast enough to remain a multi-turn threat to Demolisher. It's not perfect, but it's better than the current solution of doing a Rieekan bear hug to take Demolisher down with one of your own ships.

And the key from my perspective is that both factions will have a tortilla with scatter. Throw the Imperial Tortillas in with Firesprays/TIE bombers and reroll their misses.

I'm so over the "Demo needs to be nerfed" whining. It's really not all that difficult to counter, I'll give you a few examples that have worked both while I was playing demo and playing against demo.

1) Underbid- self explanatory

2)Say "f$ck underbidding" and use the full 400 points. If someone is beating you with over a 10% point deficit, you might be the problem.

3) Don't charge in. This is SUICIDE against a demo list. Make them come to you, and make it suck to do so.

4)OBJECTIVES! Do you think any demo list wants to have to play superior positions, and place all their ships first? Or eat two broadsides from an advanced gunnery mc80? Or charge in on an ISD or two angled just right at the station in the far corner of the board?

5) Lay traps! If you listened to suggestion three, this might not be as cruicial, because if you haven't moved, the demo will fly off the board if he tries to get behind you. If not, leave some nasty ships of your own back there that can vaporize demo.

6) Threaten his other ships. Armada is a game of presenting your opponent with hard decisions. Make him decide between getting that triple tap and risk losing a ship or two of his own next round with a perfect shot you have lined up on one of his other ships.

7) Lastly, BOMBERS! The fireball is one thing that I think might ACTUALLY need a little nerf, as it excels against EVERYTHING. But if you have a decent sized rhymer/fireball protecting your flank from demo, he will be hesitant to fly right into it, as you will chew it down very quickly.

End Rant

Demo has to be played around. it means when moving forward moving in a \ away from demolisher so if he comes in at speed 4 maybe he misses that first attack as hes just out of range. Happens more than you would think honestly. a slight curve in forward movement, the kowzikowski shuffle as i call it is a 1 click left 1 click right, so your ship doesnt change facing it just shuffles to the left or right will easily through threat range estimation off.

you know what else throws it off, deploy at speed 1... drop to speed 0, guess what his whole fleet is now out of range on black dice and you are in range on red dice. demolisher comes in you eat 1 attack with no defense tokens (shouldn't one shot an AF+) and then go back to speed 2 and kill demolisher.... This also works, and is the play i use when playing my double ISD list.... If they dont go with demolisher first you can shoot him at red dice range and get some damage on him. In my case demolisher gets hit with 4 squadrons and 4 red dice and typically the double ram is no longer an option if i get an accuracy in the attack. you may even get him at blue dice range depending on how you deploy. I would have to reCAD out all the threat ranges and options to figure it out.

AHHHH jinking. I do that all the time. The issue is that you are dealing with a CR90 that can still deal with you. Sure it is better in Clontroper5's hands. Just like Dodonna the Oppressor is great in my hands, however clon's list is super easy to use and learn. It can take no more than 3 games to get used to it. My list is something I am still getting used to after 15ish games with it.

ive played it a few games now (more than 3) I don't get it. I mean I get it.... my opponents just see right threw it, sacrifice a ship for the greater good and then kill demolisher, and if i trade up like demolisher for an AF or MC-80, my Raiders cant finish them off and i lose hard. no offense to clone, but i feel the list is a major newb stomper and once more people wise up to it and learn how to play against the list without tailoring their fleet to do so, it wont have much success. Look at the GenCon special. It was the only way to play imps and yet, at worlds, it got crushed over and over again by standard balanced fleets because people just had more experience against it.

experience is the number 1 thing in this game you need to be successful.