lol yeah just re read it I missed the officer part!

also of note this does nothing to help rebels against demo, and we know their commander is rerolls so....

Perhaps...but just making ISD's more survivable may make GSD delivery focus less of "a thing" and that would make Rebels also more viable in open completion if high bid DeMSU is less of a tournament winning plan.

that is a solid theory

Yeah...the whole "rock, scissors, paper" thing.

rock paper scissors isn't really what he was saying

My point being, as far as imp lists go, there aren't many options to dominate... usually if an imp list won over a rebel list, it's because the rebels messed up, and NOT because the imps did well...

Wow, this statement couldn't be more wrong.

As an imperial player who has never run a DeMSU list, prefers second player and routinely 8-2 to 10-0's every type of rebel list this statement just shows a tremendous lack of understanding for the game.

Maybe YOU get kited, I control the board.

The only kind of rebel list that gives me trouble is a well-run shark attack list, usually I only manage a 7-3 or worst case 5-5

To clarify, I DO lose to rebel lists but I can very easily point out EXACTLY what I did to mess up and cause the loss. To say that rebels only lose when they mess up is laughable.

Edit: would also like to add that I don't think I'm even that good a player. I have seen truly good players play and I know i'm not that, and I still think the statement is a joke if a mediocre player like me proves it wrong all the time.

going second has it's advantages.... my point about going first is ONLY IN REGARDS TO THE DEMOLISHER. when the demolisher goes last, AND THEN goes first, it can tripple shot you, killing almost any target, essentially, between turns.... this is just simply why the demolisher is broken... its the only real argument anyone can actually have vs the demolisher being overpowered... i never meant to imply going first means you automatically win, only going first vs a demolisher list, is a hard counter.

but my argument is that yes, the demolisher may be broken in one specific situation. BUT rebels are also broken in lots of different ways as well, so in the end is it really so bad?

it seems, you disagree with my with that second part, which is fine. you have a right to your own opinion. and im really not trying to hijack the thread, but if you care to know why i feel that way, or would rather say more to me other than "you are wrong, i have this really good/broken list, and i beat lots of people, so i am right and your opinions is stupid"... well then here ya go:

lets see if i can make this short and simple.

if all things being equal and balanced, the player with the most options will USUALLY be the deciding factor of who wins or loses depending on that players choices.

1. when creating a list, who has more viable ships to choose from (aka: options)? imperials or rebels?

2. when creating a synergy to your list, who has more options to choose from? imperials or rebels?

3. when commanding your fleet, who has more maneuverability? speed 3 imp ships or speed 4 rebel ships?

4. when setting command dials, who has more options? command 2-3 imp ships or command 1-2 rebel ships?

with the previous thoughts in mind, i will take it a step further:

i am not familiar with the list you are using, but lets, for arguments sake, say it is unbeatable... you hit harder, you have more health, and when a ship dies, its worth hardly any points.... and lets even say i am completely wrong on points number 1 and 2... just for arguments sake... BUT as the rebel player, i am 1 speed faster than you and i have 1 command less than you... i could choose to pick you apart from red dice range and stay away from your black (kiting you).... will i win 10-0? no. could i win 6-4? maybe. will the game end 5-5? probably. did you control the board? sure. but even if the game ends 5-5, i should have lost 0-10 because your list is so unbeatable... but because i have OPTIONS, i tie 5-5 at worst, and win 6-4 at best.... because i CHOSE to.

i too am not a great player... but i dont have to be a good player to see that rebels have less command, more maneuverability, and are way better at red range with their heavy red dice and double evade ships... and under a good commander (aka, someone who doesnt just fly in and clash at black range) will win more than he loses.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't think the demolisher is /that/ absurd... let's take a step back: the imperials don't really have a lot to go with... VSDs are worthless in most situations, the ISD is easily kited. And the raider is held together with toothpicks.... and even the gladiators are pretty bad without the demolisher upgrade... and even with the "OP" upgrade, it is only good when yiu go first, and its only truly overpowered when you go first. You go last AND first...

So the moral of the story is rebels are complaining because they have a full toolbelt and they are made because the imps have 1 tool in their belt?

South do to me like you have not found your stride with Imperials yet. Well that or whoever you play has not.

All Imperial ships are deadly. They can be used extremely effectively but all req9uire more finesse than most know.

Hmm, maybe. I pride myself on being different (as far as my lists go). But I win every game in which my rebel opponent clashes with me... that being said, I've lost every game vs a rebel opponent who kited/circled me... meaning the rebel is 100% in control of who wins or who loses... which I do NOT like.

This is off topic, but VSDs truly are **** unless used in a rhymer ball, in which they do zero in a fight besides die. ISDs can be kited/circled... 120-175 points for 8 dice is excessive at best.

Glads suck with no defensive slot.

Raiders are good as support...

My point being, as far as imp lists go, there aren't many options to dominate... usually if an imp list won over a rebel list, it's because the rebels messed up, and NOT because the imps did well...

That being said, I don't run the demo at all, but I agree with clon in that, it's only overpowered because you can attack twice (going first and last).

So boohoo if you can't have 4 dolphins with akbar, or boohoo if you can't run 5 ships with TRC and ECMs so that you can beat the bid to see who goes first.

I am sorry for being critical but this whole statement screams that you may be new. This is fine. There are lessons that everyone learns through play so you. Will be fine.

The Ackbar toilet bowl is a tough nut but there are a few tricks out there. So learn not to rush in as much and instead learn to predict movement. That is where the ISD and VSD are great. Even the Raider and standard GSD are great that way.

I play some really tough opponents and rebel or Imperial it is always tight. They do t have to make mistakes to lose but it can occur.

i am relatively new, and maybe not all of my thoughts/opinions are accurate... and i appreciate the actual logical/meaningful post, i was just using a few examples, but when discussing balance to a game such as this, its hard to speak in specifics, since its a general problem.

i dont play magic the gathering, but it impresses me how the best players in the world will have a win ratio (in the final tournament/tournaments) of just over 50% vs other players of their caliber... that to me screams a balanced game... where the grand champion only won a few more times than he lost.... granted armada isnt mtg, and has a lot less RNG for that matter, but i think a point can be made here... i gree the demolisher is overpowered is certain situations, but thats not the whole issue, the question is, will a nerf to the demolisher balance the game? i think no, for several reasons. and i could be completely wrong, but thats my opinion....

but as a final note, i think wave 3 will balance the demolisher just fine anyways... (at least what has been released so far) with the introduction of flotillas, it allows rebel players to have more ships, to counter the last+first move of the demolisher, and lets them actually utilize their savage bombers, so even if the demolisher gets a 1+2,3, itll be short lived.

i too am not a great player... but i dont have to be a good player to see that rebels have less command, more maneuverability, and are way better at red range with their heavy red dice and double evade ships... and under a good commander (aka, someone who doesnt just fly in and clash at black range) will win more than he loses.

Here's the only sensible thing you really said

Under a good commander, who understands his list intimately, and understands the strengths and weaknesses of his opponents list, I think the sides are quite balanced.Commander skill being equal, I don't feel there is any intrinsic advantage to EITHER side other than the (debatably) broken DeMSU build.

I recommend you try commanders such as Ozzel (my favourite) and ISDII with Needa and TRCs (who can give any rebel ship as good as it can dish out when it comes to red dice, with a CF command, TRC, and some good rolling you can have a kiting CR90 nearly busted) and try the relentless title. I can't remember how many times I witness a wince of pain on the faces of my opponents when they realize I always have a squadron command or CF exactly when I need it thanks to relentless. Its a 3pt title that gives tremendous command efficiency to one of the most efficient ships in the game.

lets see if i can make this short and simple.

if all things being equal and balanced, the player with the most options will USUALLY be the deciding factor of who wins or loses depending on that players choices.

1. when creating a list, who has more viable ships to choose from (aka: options)? imperials or rebels?

2. when creating a synergy to your list, who has more options to choose from? imperials or rebels?

3. when commanding your fleet, who has more maneuverability? speed 3 imp ships or speed 4 rebel ships?

4. when setting command dials, who has more options? command 2-3 imp ships or command 1-2 rebel ships?

Leaving aside the fact that you conveniently ignore the Imperial counterpart to every item in that list*...

1. when rolling dice, who has more? rebels or imperials?

2. when attacking, who has more ways to modify their dice? rebels or imperials?

3. when building fighter wings, whose hit harder, fly faster, are cheaper, and can attack from triple range? rebels or imperials?

4. when flying, who has a way to shoot after moving? rebels or imperials?

We can cherry pick all day finding the advantages that one faction has over the other. The truth is, both sides are extremely well balanced, most kinds of builds that can be implemented on one side have at least an analogue on the other, and every advantage that one side has is offset by one of the other's. Rebel squadron hardiness is offset by Imperial squadron speed. Imperial ability to modify dice at red range is offset by Rebel dice volume at red range. Rebel heavy shields are offset by Imperial heavy hull. Imperial ships' punch at close range is offset by Rebel defenses at long range... in all but one notable case.

That said, if you seriously think Rebels have every advantage in this game, I can think of no faster way to dispel that misconception than to play Rebels.

---

* Except #1. I totally agree that Imps need an extra ship to bring balance to the options.

I think the best way to counter the prevalence of Demolisher is to provide another ship of any size that can give Imperials a viable competition alternative. Right now, your options as an Imperial player realistically boil down to only three of their four ships (pending release of the Gozanti): the GSD1, RDR1, and ISD2. On the Rebel side, any of their ships so far can be used effectively in a list with the right combination of ships, squadrons, and commanders. The Imperials are far less flexible. Most of the other ships they have are basically party tricks, fun for casual nights but not burning up the charts otherwise. So it's inevitable that one ship that already works and is ready to play is exploited to the maximum. Where are the Imperial alternatives? Same with Imperial squadrons: what's the point of squadrons without Rhymer to make them even better? Stat-wise, Imperials fighters break even or do worse in a match-up against their Rebel opponents in almost every way.

i too am not a great player... but i dont have to be a good player to see that rebels have less command, more maneuverability, and are way better at red range with their heavy red dice and double evade ships... and under a good commander (aka, someone who doesnt just fly in and clash at black range) will win more than he loses.

Here's the only sensible thing you really said

Under a good commander, who understands his list intimately, and understands the strengths and weaknesses of his opponents list, I think the sides are quite balanced.Commander skill being equal, I don't feel there is any intrinsic advantage to EITHER side other than the (debatably) broken DeMSU build.

I recommend you try commanders such as Ozzel (my favourite) and ISDII with Needa and TRCs (who can give any rebel ship as good as it can dish out when it comes to red dice, with a CF command, TRC, and some good rolling you can have a kiting CR90 nearly busted) and try the relentless title. I can't remember how many times I witness a wince of pain on the faces of my opponents when they realize I always have a squadron command or CF exactly when I need it thanks to relentless. Its a 3pt title that gives tremendous command efficiency to one of the most efficient ships in the game.

ozzel is a lot of fun, and he is probably undervalued, because you cant mathematically count his advantage...

needa is a must have in an ISD imo, but i find that in most games, i am always discarding the evade, and never get (or want) to use it for the TRCs. but it's rough because you kind of need them if it's not your front hull... i ended up dropping the TRC.

but i entirely agree with all your points.

lets see if i can make this short and simple.

if all things being equal and balanced, the player with the most options will USUALLY be the deciding factor of who wins or loses depending on that players choices.

1. when creating a list, who has more viable ships to choose from (aka: options)? imperials or rebels?

2. when creating a synergy to your list, who has more options to choose from? imperials or rebels?

3. when commanding your fleet, who has more maneuverability? speed 3 imp ships or speed 4 rebel ships?

4. when setting command dials, who has more options? command 2-3 imp ships or command 1-2 rebel ships?

Leaving aside the fact that you conveniently ignore the Imperial counterpart to every item in that list*...

1. when rolling dice, who has more? rebels or imperials?

2. when attacking, who has more ways to modify their dice? rebels or imperials?

3. when building fighter wings, whose hit harder, fly faster, are cheaper, and can attack from triple range? rebels or imperials?

4. when flying, who has a way to shoot after moving? rebels or imperials?

We can cherry pick all day finding the advantages that one faction has over the other. The truth is, both sides are extremely well balanced, most kinds of builds that can be implemented on one side have at least an analogue on the other, and every advantage that one side has is offset by one of the other's. Rebel squadron hardiness is offset by Imperial squadron speed. Imperial ability to modify dice at red range is offset by Rebel dice volume at red range. Rebel heavy shields are offset by Imperial heavy hull. Imperial ships' punch at close range is offset by Rebel defenses at long range... in all but one notable case.

That said, if you seriously think Rebels have every advantage in this game, I can think of no faster way to dispel that misconception than to play Rebels.

---

* Except #1. I totally agree that Imps need an extra ship to bring balance to the options.

i wasn't cherry picking: you just listed the imperials only 3 options.... and thats kind of what i mean...

every imp lists needs:

2. screed/vader(or OE)+APT/ACM

3. rhymer ball

4. demolisher.

or a combination of the 3

i too agree with point 1, but its balanced as in the "more" dice is usually black die as apposed to red die, i think we can call that a wash.

and i dont think rebels have every advantage in the game, i merely think they usually dictate the pace and direction of the game... which means "the ball is in the rebels court".

so back to the topic at hand, I agree the demolisher is absurd when it goes last and first, all that i am saying is in the grand scheme of things, i think its still "balanced". i'm not trying to argue who is better, imps or rebels. even as you say, everything has an offset... i think there is an offset to the current demolisher... it just doesnt come in the form of a ship, but rather in a style of list and strategy.

and on this note, i can equally say, by nerfing the demolisher, you are further tying the hands of the imperials by taking away 1 of their 3 options.... also disrupting the balance of an already "extremely well balanced game"

maybe i am taking the wrong side of this debate, maybe i should let someone else tell me how powerful the imperials are and how weak the rebels are, and thats the reason we need to nerf the demo.... because thats really the only way (in my mind) that you can justify it. honestly, if the tables were turned and the rebels had the demolisher as well as all their other options, i'd say its a no brainer, get rid of it! but in the current state of the game i think its equally absurd to consider nerfing the demolisher (at least without offering an alternative)....

i wasn't cherry picking: you just listed the imperials only 3 options.... and thats kind of what i mean...

every imp lists needs:

2. screed/vader(or OE)+APT/ACM

3. rhymer ball

4. demolisher.

or a combination of the 3

Well, except that I have done very well at tournaments with a 2x ISD 2 list commanded by Vader. 5 squadrons and none where Rhymer. Fun times. It is still a strong list against those with a ton of activations. You just have to keep an eye out on the board and watch your speed.

I havn't used the Demolisher or Rhymer in ages and my Imperials seem to fly fine.

The beauty of a powerful ship is that it requires new tactics and new ships to handle the threat. Both require time, practice, and patience. The terms "nerf" and "OP" indicate a concession and I don't accept them. Nor should the designers. This happens all the time in real life, so just accept it because everything changes in time.

The beauty of a powerful ship is that it requires new tactics and new ships to handle the threat. Both require time, practice, and patience. The terms "nerf" and "OP" indicate a concession and I don't accept them. Nor should the designers. This happens all the time in real life, so just accept it because everything changes in time.

15 pages. Demolisher doesn't need errata. Rebels need:

"rebel admiral" - X? Points - You are first player. Should your opponent also have this card, determine initiative as normal.

Problem solved

15 pages. Demolisher doesn't need errata. Rebels need:

"rebel admiral" - X? Points - You are first player. Should your opponent also have this card, determine initiative as normal.

Problem solved

For what it's worth, I think I suggested something like this about 13 pages ago :-)

Here's another one:

"Officer Shmuckatelli". At the beginning of any turn after turn 1, you may discard Officer Shmuckatelli to take possession of the "first player" token, OR to give it to the opposing player. During the "status phase" of that round, return the first player token to the original player.

@AnalBuccaneer, if you really think Rebels have the advantage at every meaningful comparison point, just look no farther than the Regional Data that has been collected. Rebels make up about 40% of the total lists, but only represent 12% of the Top 4 lists. Meaning Imperials are disproportionately placing highly in events (88% of the Top 4 builds) despite only being 60% of the field. If anything you believed were actually true, we'd see the inverse of what we're actually seeing.

Say what you will, but the truth of Armada is that Rebels have to play a much more subtle and careful game of tech, since Imperials have the brute advantages. Which is fine, that's actually pretty thematic. Except that the best tech options all exist for the Imperials: the Gladiator is the most mobile and hard-hitting ship in the game, let alone for its relatively low price point. MC30s, while decent, can't even dream of being as effective as a Demolisher. Major Rhymer makes Imperial fighters insanely flexible and far-hitting, meaning a Rhymerball can make a big Dead Zone Sphere with a diameter of Distance 20 (because the ball can move Distance 4 in any direction and then bomb ships another ~Distance 3 from that). Rebel squadron builds cannot even begin to dream of that kind of flexibility or threat range. Hence, it's not surprising that 75% of the Imperial builds in the Top 4 have been built around the Demolisher and/or Rhymer Balls.

@AnalBuccaneer, if you really think Rebels have the advantage at every meaningful comparison point, just look no farther than the Regional Data that has been collected. Rebels make up about 40% of the total lists, but only represent 12% of the Top 4 lists. Meaning Imperials are disproportionately placing highly in events (88% of the Top 4 builds) despite only being 60% of the field. If anything you believed were actually true, we'd see the inverse of what we're actually seeing.

Say what you will, but the truth of Armada is that Rebels have to play a much more subtle and careful game of tech, since Imperials have the brute advantages. Which is fine, that's actually pretty thematic. Except that the best tech options all exist for the Imperials: the Gladiator is the most mobile and hard-hitting ship in the game, let alone for its relatively low price point. MC30s, while decent, can't even dream of being as effective as a Demolisher. Major Rhymer makes Imperial fighters insanely flexible and far-hitting, meaning a Rhymerball can make a big Dead Zone Sphere with a diameter of Distance 20 (because the ball can move Distance 4 in any direction and then bomb ships another ~Distance 3 from that). Rebel squadron builds cannot even begin to dream of that kind of flexibility or threat range. Hence, it's not surprising that 75% of the Imperial builds in the Top 4 have been built around the Demolisher and/or Rhymer Balls.

I just came on here to comment on that data, but it appears im late to the party

i am wrong on some of my positions.... the data shows that... but, the rebels are twice as likely to win out of the top 4 in regionals, despite only being 1 of the 4... which may make a very interesting nationals? we agree on rebels having to be subtle and careful, vs the brutes, i just thought that the rebels would win more often if they played well... and also that it wasnt as hard than it actually is... i think if anything, the data shows that rieekan is better than imperial lists, but they are a hell of a lot harder to fly.

also i was wrong in rebels having options... well, they do... but when it comes to countering the demo/rhymer ball, they really dont.... all they have is rieekan.... thats really what this thread should be about. instead of how to nerf the demo, how to give the rebels at least one other option to beating it.

but now that i look at it, maybe the data is skewed, because the only admiral to make it through the onslaught of imperials was reeikan lists, which is a hard counter to the demolisher.... myabe thats why the demolisher lists didnt do as well as the rhymer balls?

but to wrap it up, and to bring it back on topic: even though i was wrong about the rebels... rhymer balls are much scarier than demolishers, and have a consistently higher win %... either way, i think the data kills this thread, the demo is not overpowered and you cant nerf the entire imperial fleet, the rebels just have only have 1 option to beat it (which is not cool).

Edit: it appears his data is incomplete... he has the complete data on 3 regions, and only with participants+winner of 4 others, which explains the akbar swarm anomaly.... i thought it was a typo at first... but it seems ackbar did just as well as rieekan... so maybe we cant look to deeply into the data?

I would just like to mention that the only Rebel lists that have won are Rieekan based. While the Imperials have 3 commanders out of 5 winning.

In my opinion, what the data shows is that:

-DeMSU and Rhymerball are the nastiest imperial metas (I think we can agree on that).

-Rebels are constricted in making lists that can answer one of those, but not both (within the same list).

-Rieekan is the closest to getting an Admiral that can handle both threats.

-Rebel players have largely tailored their lists more towards handling DeMSU than the Rhymerballs (which they find scarier), hoping that fewer Rhymerballs will show up, or hoping that their squadron cover would be enough to handle Rhymerballs if they encountered that.

@Anal; <slow clap on being able to admit you were wrong. 1000 likes to you, sir.>

In my opinion, what the data shows is that:

-DeMSU and Rhymerball are the nastiest imperial metas (I think we can agree on that).

-Rebels are constricted in making lists that can answer one of those, but not both (within the same list).

-Rieekan is the closest to getting an Admiral that can handle both threats.

-Rebel players have largely tailored their lists more towards handling DeMSU than the Rhymerballs (which they find scarier), hoping that fewer Rhymerballs will show up, or hoping that their squadron cover would be enough to handle Rhymerballs if they encountered that.

@Anal; <slow clap on being able to admit you were wrong. 1000 likes to you, sir.>

In my opinion, what the data shows is that:

-DeMSU and Rhymerball are the nastiest imperial metas (I think we can agree on that).

-Rebels are constricted in making lists that can answer one of those, but not both (within the same list).

-Rieekan is the closest to getting an Admiral that can handle both threats.

-Rebel players have largely tailored their lists more towards handling DeMSU than the Rhymerballs (which they find scarier), hoping that fewer Rhymerballs will show up, or hoping that their squadron cover would be enough to handle Rhymerballs if they encountered that.

@Anal; <slow clap on being able to admit you were wrong. 1000 likes to you, sir.>

I will be taking DtO to Vancouver so we will see what happens there. Dodonna might be the issue but I don't fear Rhymer with the list. DeMSU on the other hand worries me.

Huh. That surprises me. I would have thought you'd be able to handle DemSU with DtO better than Rhymer.

In my opinion, what the data shows is that:

-DeMSU and Rhymerball are the nastiest imperial metas (I think we can agree on that).

-Rebels are constricted in making lists that can answer one of those, but not both (within the same list).

-Rieekan is the closest to getting an Admiral that can handle both threats.

-Rebel players have largely tailored their lists more towards handling DeMSU than the Rhymerballs (which they find scarier), hoping that fewer Rhymerballs will show up, or hoping that their squadron cover would be enough to handle Rhymerballs if they encountered that.

@Anal; <slow clap on being able to admit you were wrong. 1000 likes to you, sir.>

I will be taking DtO to Vancouver so we will see what happens there. Dodonna might be the issue but I don't fear Rhymer with the list. DeMSU on the other hand worries me.

Huh. That surprises me. I would have thought you'd be able to handle DemSU with DtO better than Rhymer.

Another issue faced is that I can't run and gun Demolisher early enough due to it being able to swoop in from outside of red range into lethal range. What I need is some Vassal practice and board practice at having Demolisher in his threat range and moving in ways that place me at medium range. I have the theory down but I need to see it to make it work.

As for vs Rhymerball's of all flavors, they have limitations on their dice. I will expect to lose 1-3 ships but will get a 400+ out of it usually at the expense of 56 to 254 lost on my side.