This is the fourth time I've been on these boards and have seen someone use the word "casuals" as an ad hominem attack against a position in an effort to dismiss it. This is unproductive and reeks of condescension. It also furthers a false divide between players of this game as it attempts to divide the community into two groups: those who are allowed to speak about the game and those who keep their mouths shut. Please stop, for the sake of the community.

I'll 100% back you on this. I disagree with you on flotillas and activations, as you saw from my statement, but I hate it when people are dismissed as "casuals."

As for the ship cap, I agree Ardaedhel. A ship cap wouldn't do anything. I think the most reasonable action at this time, if there is any action to be taken, is the simple soft nerf suggested by the OP. Limiting the usage of the Demolisher title to not include Engine Tech movement does a lot to limit the flexibility and threat range of Demolisher. This, combined with the wild card of flotillas, should be enough of an adjustment for wave 3. If Demolisher is still king after that, then it's time for more drastic action.

God. Don't go to the X-Wing Forum, then....

What about removing the squadron limit?

.....Yeah imagine 400 points of tie fighters

The real swarm.

This is the fourth time I've been on these boards and have seen someone use the word "casuals" as an ad hominem attack against a position in an effort to dismiss it. This is unproductive and reeks of condescension. It also furthers a false divide between players of this game as it attempts to divide the community into two groups: those who are allowed to speak about the game and those who keep their mouths shut. Please stop, for the sake of the community.

I'll 100% back you on this. I disagree with you on flotillas and activations, as you saw from my statement, but I hate it when people are dismissed as "casuals."

As for the ship cap, I agree Ardaedhel. A ship cap wouldn't do anything. I think the most reasonable action at this time, if there is any action to be taken, is the simple soft nerf suggested by the OP. Limiting the usage of the Demolisher title to not include Engine Tech movement does a lot to limit the flexibility and threat range of Demolisher. This, combined with the wild card of flotillas, should be enough of an adjustment for wave 3. If Demolisher is still king after that, then it's time for more drastic action.

God. Don't go to the X-Wing Forum, then....

Oh I'm very thankful for the civil discourse that takes place on this forum most days. Every once in a while I think 'maybe I should get into X-Wing' and wander over to their forum to get an idea of the meta. I then run screaming back over here. It's nowhere near as bad as the old Warhammer forums I used to frequent, but still.

What about removing the squadron limit?

Hmm...7 B-Wings, 4 X-Wings, Wedge, Dutch, Keyan, Jan, 7 Flotillas, and Rieekan...

Even at 20 points per flotilla, I think they'll be more than balanced. Activation advantage is a little overrated at the moment. Yes, it's great to have, but it's not so great that you can sink 20 points into something that will do nothing but give you another activation. In a ship oriented list, are you really going to take 2 flottillas over a TRC90? In Imperial lists, is it really work dropping a Raider I with APT and OE for another activation? These are not insignificant sources of firewpower. Even in my squadron lists, which will very clearly benefit from the flotilla's bomber command center, I'm thinking very hard about the advantages versus the very real drop off in raw firepower. The flotillas have to bring more than an activation to offset their lack of firepower.

For example, in my match against Ninja, I would have wiped the floor with him had he brought 8 flotillas and Demolisher. Sure, Demolisher would have killed something (and it did), but you can position yourself to make it go away after that initial pain. Ninja managed to pull it to a 5-5 because of his APT/OE Raiders. If those had been nothing but flottilas, the game would have been a 10-0 in my favor easily. If it had been 4 flotillas, a ~100 point Rhymerball, and Demolisher, it would have been closer game, but I still don't think a Rhymerball of that size would have given me much of a headache. There is a huge drop off in firepower when you invest 80 points in ships that only have a single blue die per arc.

I'm already sinking 44 points into something that does nothing but buy me an activation. It's called a Raider. I will happily swap it for 2 flotilla that might actually be useful.

.....Yeah imagine 400 points of tie fighters

The real swarm.

Ha. No. 330 points of A-wings, plus Mon Mothma on a CR90b.

.....Yeah imagine 400 points of tie fighters

The real swarm.

Ha. No. 330 points of A-wings, plus Mon Mothma on a CR90b.

Even at 20 points per flotilla, I think they'll be more than balanced. Activation advantage is a little overrated at the moment. Yes, it's great to have, but it's not so great that you can sink 20 points into something that will do nothing but give you another activation. In a ship oriented list, are you really going to take 2 flottillas over a TRC90? In Imperial lists, is it really work dropping a Raider I with APT and OE for another activation? These are not insignificant sources of firewpower. Even in my squadron lists, which will very clearly benefit from the flotilla's bomber command center, I'm thinking very hard about the advantages versus the very real drop off in raw firepower. The flotillas have to bring more than an activation to offset their lack of firepower.

For example, in my match against Ninja, I would have wiped the floor with him had he brought 8 flotillas and Demolisher. Sure, Demolisher would have killed something (and it did), but you can position yourself to make it go away after that initial pain. Ninja managed to pull it to a 5-5 because of his APT/OE Raiders. If those had been nothing but flottilas, the game would have been a 10-0 in my favor easily. If it had been 4 flotillas, a ~100 point Rhymerball, and Demolisher, it would have been closer game, but I still don't think a Rhymerball of that size would have given me much of a headache. There is a huge drop off in firepower when you invest 80 points in ships that only have a single blue die per arc.

I'm already sinking 44 points into something that does nothing but buy me an activation. It's called a Raider. I will happily swap it for 2 flotilla that might actually be useful.

You might want to talk to Ninja and/or Clon. The DeMSU's Raiders seem like a critical part of the build when I'm on the recieving end. That was definitely the case when I played Ninja.

Honestly, a CR90B at 39 points or RDRI at 44 points for "just" an activation is worth it, at least for one (see Reining's list- the 90B was an objective hunter/activation padder). Now, doing that twice? Three times? That's majorly removing some punch from your fleet.

In other words, I don't think flotmania will be such a big thing. Intel officers' stock might go up... even more. Which in turn might bring ECM's down. Which might make ap's return. And Xi7's? AGH! brain explosion!

But certainly true- the EL+IO+OE RDRI's in ClonMSU have a huuuuuuuge function in restricting feasible moves for the other player. You just can't do that without some teeth to back it up.

Also, you seriously get diminishing returns on opponent ship count + 1 activations

For the record, by "casual player" I mean "someone who doesn't regularly play against competitive tournament lists." My intent isn't to exclude or offend anybody. Casual players are the bread and butter of minis wargaming.There's nothing wrong with being a casual player. If you want to replace the word "casual" with the less-kneejerk-reaction word "inexperienced (or "less experienced")" then the point remains the same. People with less experience are drawing an incorrect conclusion. Once you get some experience with or against a clontroper style of fleet, you will understand it better. But take my word for it that unless Gozantis get some kind of option that lets them punch much harder than we currently believe they can (1 blue dice each arc), they're not a better version of Raiders because Raiders are a legitimate threat of their own whereas Gozantis are not, regardless of the extra activations. More activations helps the Demolisher be stronger than it was in wave one, but that's only part of the equation.

Nice definition of "Casual!"

Tell you what. For those that don't value the raider...

Just take a fully kitted out Demolisher. That's it. And every turn, I'll let you decide when you want to activate it. First, second, last. You can even decide that at any point in the turn. Just say, I want to activate next.

We'll see how it goes.

Even at 20 points per flotilla, I think they'll be more than balanced. Activation advantage is a little overrated at the moment. Yes, it's great to have, but it's not so great that you can sink 20 points into something that will do nothing but give you another activation. In a ship oriented list, are you really going to take 2 flottillas over a TRC90? In Imperial lists, is it really work dropping a Raider I with APT and OE for another activation? These are not insignificant sources of firewpower. Even in my squadron lists, which will very clearly benefit from the flotilla's bomber command center, I'm thinking very hard about the advantages versus the very real drop off in raw firepower. The flotillas have to bring more than an activation to offset their lack of firepower.

For example, in my match against Ninja, I would have wiped the floor with him had he brought 8 flotillas and Demolisher. Sure, Demolisher would have killed something (and it did), but you can position yourself to make it go away after that initial pain. Ninja managed to pull it to a 5-5 because of his APT/OE Raiders. If those had been nothing but flottilas, the game would have been a 10-0 in my favor easily. If it had been 4 flotillas, a ~100 point Rhymerball, and Demolisher, it would have been closer game, but I still don't think a Rhymerball of that size would have given me much of a headache. There is a huge drop off in firepower when you invest 80 points in ships that only have a single blue die per arc.

I'm already sinking 44 points into something that does nothing but buy me an activation. It's called a Raider. I will happily swap it for 2 flotilla that might actually be useful.

You might want to talk to Ninja and/or Clon. The DeMSU's Raiders seem like a critical part of the build when I'm on the recieving end. That was definitely the case when I played Ninja.

Word. And while i certainly don't advocate calling people "casuals" especially as a pejorative, the fact that someone thinks a raider is no more than a 44 pt. activation stall has simply not experienced Clon's list. (to be fair, it's not a 44 pt. raider, though, it's more like a 68 pt. glass cannon, OE, EL and Intel Officer)

I played 5 ship in tournaments, GSD Demo / GSD, Raider I x2 decked out, Raider I with Screed on it. And I tabled people without Demolisher firing once the entire game for the cost of 1 Raider.

Demolisher just makes that process easier, removing Demolisher is not going to stop my fleet jumping in wrecking something, then jumping out at speed 4, so you get to respond with your red dice from a weak arc.

I think people are overlooking the core issue, that Demolisher is just highlighting, highlighting that much people think Demolisher is the problem, it is just a symptom of the problem.

The issue is that fast, maneuverable ships, usually trade a lot of firepower to be fast and maneuverable, but add in Screed, Ordnance Experts, and APT/ACM/ExLaun with an Intel Officer and all of a sudden you have a ship that is not only fast and maneuverable, but it can dish out more average damage than the largest most expensive ships in the game. Then combine that with first player, and out activating your opponent, and you have a massive problem.

It changes the balance of ships, and it is not limited to one ship title, MC30, Gladiators and Raiders can all do this, not just Demolisher.

I played several games this week, and took no Demolisher in my Imperial fleet builds, I ran ISD's mainly, and I can tell you now, I was massively underwhelmed with their performance as damage dealing platforms, trying to get Rebel ships in your front arc to use all dice = nightmare, an absolute nightmare, when I finally did, with 8 dice I did a whopping 6 damage with 2 Accuracy results, from a ship that cost me over 170 pts, for one round the entire game it got to throw its whole dice pool and it did 6 damage, which got braced because it's target had ECM, did not even strip all the shields from one facing. it then flew out of my front arc, into my side/rear, with his MC80's side arc in play, needless to say my ISD did not survive.

Compare that to my Raider I that cost me 62pts (InOff/OE/ACM) front arc = 4 damage + 2 for ACM, Side arc 4 damage +2 for ACM, opponent chose to brace and lose it on first attack, and took 10 damage in total, then it flew off at speed 4 and he got to fire back 1 red dice, then the next 62pt Raider comes in and does exactly the same thing, and kills his MC80. So for 46 less points, I did more damage per attack, it was easier to deal that damage, and both my Raiders survived, and killed the MC80.

Take Demolisher out, Play with 2 Gladiators, and 3 Raiders, it takes me 2 rounds to kill a MC80/ISD, but it usually took me 2 rounds to kill it with Demolisher, or 2 sets of attacks.

So how do you stop it? because I do not see this issue going away even if they do remove Demolisher.

Word. And while i certainly don't advocate calling people "casuals" especially as a pejorative, the fact that someone thinks a raider is no more than a 44 pt. activation stall has simply not experienced Clon's list. (to be fair, it's not a 44 pt. raider, though, it's more like a 68 pt. glass cannon, OE, EL and Intel Officer)

Demolisher: alpha strike, severely weaken the enemy ahead of the rest of my fleet.

Xiphos and Gladious(EL+IO raider): backbone firepower, they use speed to bring guns to bear where needed most. Secondary function is pursue flankers

Instigator: bomber delay/ Anti-squadron, buy the rest of my list 1-2 turn to destroy the enemy. Secondary function bring additional Firepower to destroy enemy ships/ clean up.

Tanto(screed's raider): extra activation, keep screed alive. Secondary function follow behind the main force and clean up anything that gets through the net.

Really I need all my ships to perform what they do for my list to work the "best"

I could trade tanto for 2 flotillas but that's all I'm comfortable doing

I played 5 ship in tournaments, GSD Demo / GSD, Raider I x2 decked out, Raider I with Screed on it. And I tabled people without Demolisher firing once the entire game for the cost of 1 Raider.

Demolisher just makes that process easier, removing Demolisher is not going to stop my fleet jumping in wrecking something, then jumping out at speed 4, so you get to respond with your red dice from a weak arc.

I think people are overlooking the core issue, that Demolisher is just highlighting, highlighting that much people think Demolisher is the problem, it is just a symptom of the problem.

The issue is that fast, maneuverable ships, usually trade a lot of firepower to be fast and maneuverable, but add in Screed, Ordnance Experts, and APT/ACM/ExLaun with an Intel Officer and all of a sudden you have a ship that is not only fast and maneuverable, but it can dish out more average damage than the largest most expensive ships in the game. Then combine that with first player, and out activating your opponent, and you have a massive problem.

It changes the balance of ships, and it is not limited to one ship title, MC30, Gladiators and Raiders can all do this, not just Demolisher.

I played several games this week, and took no Demolisher in my Imperial fleet builds, I ran ISD's mainly, and I can tell you now, I was massively underwhelmed with their performance as damage dealing platforms, trying to get Rebel ships in your front arc to use all dice = nightmare, an absolute nightmare, when I finally did, with 8 dice I did a whopping 6 damage with 2 Accuracy results, from a ship that cost me over 170 pts, for one round the entire game it got to throw its whole dice pool and it did 6 damage, which got braced because it's target had ECM, did not even strip all the shields from one facing. it then flew out of my front arc, into my side/rear, with his MC80's side arc in play, needless to say my ISD did not survive.

Compare that to my Raider I that cost me 62pts (InOff/OE/ACM) front arc = 4 damage + 2 for ACM, Side arc 4 damage +2 for ACM, opponent chose to brace and lose it on first attack, and took 10 damage in total, then it flew off at speed 4 and he got to fire back 1 red dice, then the next 62pt Raider comes in and does exactly the same thing, and kills his MC80. So for 46 less points, I did more damage per attack, it was easier to deal that damage, and both my Raiders survived, and killed the MC80.

Take Demolisher out, Play with 2 Gladiators, and 3 Raiders, it takes me 2 rounds to kill a MC80/ISD, but it usually took me 2 rounds to kill it with Demolisher, or 2 sets of attacks.

So how do you stop it? because I do not see this issue going away even if they do remove Demolisher.

The main difference Demo makes is that you make certain the other person has no options besides dying. Restricting yourself to non-demo ordnance beasts, you at least can setup so that you get 1, if not more, shots before your opponent (outside of a nav dial/first segment click and hard bank- but knowing that's the only way for someone to pull off the last/first trick while starting out of range, it is much simpler to prepare for, much less likely to have a tanky ship disintegrate).

Again, it makes the task of accomplishing said missile fest much, much more difficult- difficult enough, I believe, to be considered "fair" relative to other strategies available in that a hard counter is not required (i.e. Rieekan/underbid)

But a hard counter is required, that was the point of my entire post, you do not need Demolisher to table someone with a 5 ship high activation fleet.

Without Demolisher your opponent just has the illusion of "not dying" as an option.

Even at 20 points per flotilla, I think they'll be more than balanced. Activation advantage is a little overrated at the moment. Yes, it's great to have, but it's not so great that you can sink 20 points into something that will do nothing but give you another activation. In a ship oriented list, are you really going to take 2 flottillas over a TRC90? In Imperial lists, is it really work dropping a Raider I with APT and OE for another activation? These are not insignificant sources of firewpower. Even in my squadron lists, which will very clearly benefit from the flotilla's bomber command center, I'm thinking very hard about the advantages versus the very real drop off in raw firepower. The flotillas have to bring more than an activation to offset their lack of firepower.

For example, in my match against Ninja, I would have wiped the floor with him had he brought 8 flotillas and Demolisher. Sure, Demolisher would have killed something (and it did), but you can position yourself to make it go away after that initial pain. Ninja managed to pull it to a 5-5 because of his APT/OE Raiders. If those had been nothing but flottilas, the game would have been a 10-0 in my favor easily. If it had been 4 flotillas, a ~100 point Rhymerball, and Demolisher, it would have been closer game, but I still don't think a Rhymerball of that size would have given me much of a headache. There is a huge drop off in firepower when you invest 80 points in ships that only have a single blue die per arc.

I'm already sinking 44 points into something that does nothing but buy me an activation. It's called a Raider. I will happily swap it for 2 flotilla that might actually be useful.

You might want to talk to Ninja and/or Clon. The DeMSU's Raiders seem like a critical part of the build when I'm on the recieving end. That was definitely the case when I played Ninja.

Word. And while i certainly don't advocate calling people "casuals" especially as a pejorative, the fact that someone thinks a raider is no more than a 44 pt. activation stall has simply not experienced Clon's list. (to be fair, it's not a 44 pt. raider, though, it's more like a 68 pt. glass cannon, OE, EL and Intel Officer)

Just so we're all clear, the only difference is that I don't play Clon's list. I do play high activation Imps and use ISDs and Gladiators, so the extra power (and freed up points) of a Raider isn't as huge as it might be in Clon's list.

For me, a pair of extra activations alone would be a huge improvement. My Raider is basically there either to ensure a tabling denial, to grab out of the way objectives, or occasionally to threaten clouds of light fighters like A-Wings and TIEs. Any additional usage is a bonus and typically is there as mop-up only.

In Clon's list, the Raiders are doing something else entirely.

Just so we're all clear, the only difference is that I don't play Clon's list. I do play high activation Imps and use ISDs and Gladiators, so the extra power (and freed up points) of a Raider isn't as huge as it might be in Clon's list.

For me, a pair of extra activations alone would be a huge improvement. My Raider is basically there either to ensure a tabling denial, to grab out of the way objectives, or occasionally to threaten clouds of light fighters like A-Wings and TIEs. Any additional usage is a bonus and typically is there as mop-up only.

In Clon's list, the Raiders are doing something else entirely.

Now that makes a lot of sense and is definitely the type of list flotillas I think will enhance the most. To be clear on my end, I doubt the flotillas will be usable ONLY for activations. They could relieve your ISD from carrier duty, or toss around those awesome repair teams. I just don't see the lower variants (meaning the ones with only squadron "1") being brought buck naked with literally the only job to be an activation. For even as low as 20 points, I want more than that.

Just so we're all clear, the only difference is that I don't play Clon's list. I do play high activation Imps and use ISDs and Gladiators, so the extra power (and freed up points) of a Raider isn't as huge as it might be in Clon's list.

For me, a pair of extra activations alone would be a huge improvement. My Raider is basically there either to ensure a tabling denial, to grab out of the way objectives, or occasionally to threaten clouds of light fighters like A-Wings and TIEs. Any additional usage is a bonus and typically is there as mop-up only.

In Clon's list, the Raiders are doing something else entirely.

Now that makes a lot of sense and is definitely the type of list flotillas I think will enhance the most. To be clear on my end, I doubt the flotillas will be usable ONLY for activations. They could relieve your ISD from carrier duty, or toss around those awesome repair teams. I just don't see the lower variants (meaning the ones with only squadron "1") being brought buck naked with literally the only job to be an activation. For even as low as 20 points, I want more than that.

They're also a free deployment. And they're remarkably resilient as anti-fighter systems, thanks to the Scatter token. If that gozanti with the black AS die comes in at 25 points or less it's points well spent.

But a hard counter is required, that was the point of my entire post, you do not need Demolisher to table someone with a 5 ship high activation fleet.

Without Demolisher your opponent just has the illusion of "not dying" as an option.

Demolisher with the same build style can kill anything and not need as much to go in Demo's favor. There is no other title, or ship that can do that.

Sure people are going on over flotilla's. Yes they will be a speed bump but this will just make the DeMSU player adjust. The flotilla won't be worth sending Demolisher in for the kill so it will be easy to expect something else like a Raider to do the job.

Yes the Meta will change soon but as it stands, from Wave 1 to now, Demo has gotten far worse in terms of balance.

All one has to ask to find out is if there is any reason not to take a Demolisher title 9 times out of 10 when you have a Gladiator in your list.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't think the demolisher is /that/ absurd... let's take a step back: the imperials don't really have a lot to go with... VSDs are worthless in most situations, the ISD is easily kited. And the raider is held together with toothpicks.... and even the gladiators are pretty bad without the demolisher upgrade... and even with the "OP" upgrade, it is only good when yiu go first, and its only truly overpowered when you go first AND last...

So the moral of the story is rebels are complaining because they have a full toolbelt and they are mad because the imps have 1 tool in their belt?

Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't think the demolisher is /that/ absurd... let's take a step back: the imperials don't really have a lot to go with... VSDs are worthless in most situations, the ISD is easily kited. And the raider is held together with toothpicks.... and even the gladiators are pretty bad without the demolisher upgrade... and even with the "OP" upgrade, it is only good when yiu go first, and its only truly overpowered when you go first. You go last AND first...

So the moral of the story is rebels are complaining because they have a full toolbelt and they are made because the imps have 1 tool in their belt?

All Imperial ships are deadly. They can be used extremely effectively but all require more finesse than most know.

Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't think the demolisher is /that/ absurd... let's take a step back: the imperials don't really have a lot to go with... VSDs are worthless in most situations, the ISD is easily kited. And the raider is held together with toothpicks.... and even the gladiators are pretty bad without the demolisher upgrade... and even with the "OP" upgrade, it is only good when yiu go first, and its only truly overpowered when you go first. You go last AND first...

So the moral of the story is rebels are complaining because they have a full toolbelt and they are made because the imps have 1 tool in their belt?

South do to me like you have not found your stride with Imperials yet. Well that or whoever you play has not.

All Imperial ships are deadly. They can be used extremely effectively but all req9uire more finesse than most know.

This is off topic, but VSDs truly are **** unless used in a rhymer ball, in which they do zero in a fight besides die. ISDs can be kited/circled... 120-175 points for 8 dice is excessive at best.

Glads suck with no defensive slot.

Raiders are good as support...

My point being, as far as imp lists go, there aren't many options to dominate... usually if an imp list won over a rebel list, it's because the rebels messed up, and NOT because the imps did well...

That being said, I don't run the demo at all, but I agree with clon in that, it's only overpowered because you can attack twice (going first and last).

So boohoo if you can't have 4 dolphins with akbar, or boohoo if you can't run 5 ships with TRC and ECMs so that you can beat the bid to see who goes first.