The masses also declared Ackbar to be overpowered. He's not exactly gracing the top ranks of tournaments right now.

Did Ackbar ever grace the top ranks of tournaments? I don't think so, but Demoisher appears to be doing a pretty good job of that right now. One may have been hype, but the other seems to be actually bearing out.

Store Tournaments. Yes. Yes he did. That was why people were talking about it online.

However, we didn't track it for Regionals. The only difference here is perspective of importance in regards to the Regional Tournament vs the Store Championships.

Just like last year at Worlds:

Someone is in their dark basement. They are playing game after game against themselves. On one side is Demolisher and a load of Raiders. They are gathering Intel. They are practicing a lot. They are building the perfect anti-meta list.

They are hoping they get lucky in the pairings.

The masses also declared Ackbar to be overpowered. He's not exactly gracing the top ranks of tournaments right now.

Did Ackbar ever grace the top ranks of tournaments? I don't think so, but Demoisher appears to be doing a pretty good job of that right now. One may have been hype, but the other seems to be actually bearing out.

Store Tournaments. Yes. Yes he did. That was why people were talking about it online.

However, we didn't track it for Regionals. The only difference here is perspective of importance in regards to the Regional Tournament vs the Store Championships.

Really? I somehow missed posts here about how players were going 35-1 winning five or more "Store Championships" in a row before we even started with Regionals. I did how ever see posts about McMann doing just that with a Demolisher focused list at nearly half a dozen events in at least four states over the "Winter Store Championships."

The masses also declared Ackbar to be overpowered. He's not exactly gracing the top ranks of tournaments right now.

Did Ackbar ever grace the top ranks of tournaments? I don't think so, but Demoisher appears to be doing a pretty good job of that right now. One may have been hype, but the other seems to be actually bearing out.

Store Tournaments. Yes. Yes he did. That was why people were talking about it online.

However, we didn't track it for Regionals. The only difference here is perspective of importance in regards to the Regional Tournament vs the Store Championships.

Really? I somehow missed posts here about how players were going 35-1 winning five or more "Store Championships" in a row before we even started with Regionals. I did how ever see posts about McMann doing just that with a Demolisher focused list at nearly half a dozen events in at least four states over the "Winter Store Championships."

I'm not saying its up to the scale of it, for sure...

But there was certainly the same amount of doom and gloom posting over it... In how that its "unbeatable" and "no-one is playing against it anymore".

Of course though, if your objective was to make someone feel belittled for pointing out what was a common, easily-searchable set of recurrent discussions on the forums in the past couple of months... Y'know... mission accomplished.

Because all I was pointing out was "People are talking about Demolisher now. People were talking about Ackbar then."

Not the merit of each of those arguments. Only that the arguments happened.

Just like last year at Worlds:

Someone is in their dark basement. They are playing game after game against themselves. On one side is Demolisher and a load of Raiders. They are gathering Intel. They are practicing a lot. They are building the perfect anti-meta list.

They are hoping they get lucky in the pairings.

What are you on about? Doing it in broad daylight on Vassal!

Well ok I am in my basement too.

A few thoughts on fleetbuilding:

My perspective here is conditioned by playing a few deck-building card games, and a couple of miniatures games over the years. The same principles are generally in place everywhere.

1. Almost all builds break down into recognizable archetypes at some point. Armada is no different. A Swarm is a key concept in many games. One can also take a few very hard-hitting pieces (battleship build). Those are pretty standard across many games. In Armada, there is also an interplay between size of the bid, objectives, and squadrons.

2. A good build has a plan for how it will play against each of the archetypes. A good build generally attempts to create a mismatch by doing one thing very well, but doing everything "well enough." Bringing 134 points in squadrons means you are attempting to do squadrons very well. Don't just bring some squadrons and hope it works out. If you're going to make this kind of a point investment, then your build should ensure that they thrive. This build would have something of an answer for a swarm build, or a battleship build, how it would interact with initiative and different objectives, but it wouldn't let fear of other possible builds derail it from doing what it intends to do well.

3. There are few things better for improving your deckbuilding abilities than staring at your cards for a long time. The real mental work is in thinking through carefully what each card can do. Some cards aren't played because they are legitimately bad, but some cards are underplayed because no one has yet discovered their potential. In any deck-building game, the builds that are more point-and-click are going to see more action, but they won't necessarily perform better than a build that has been well-thought out and calculated to perform well. One of the biggest hindrances to our strategic ability is that we develop biases based on what people talk about, or even from our own personal experience. It is very good mental energy well spent if you can sit down and think about how you might use a card.

4. Rigorously self-evaluate. If you're regularly overkilling with one ship, but underkilling with another, you've got an efficiency problem. This is ultimately a game of math. You've got two elements to that: 1. Roll more dice than your opponent. 2. Roll better dice than your opponent. Conversely, if you're constantly looking for ways to use your cards to increase one or both of those, you'll do better at building. Once you sit down at the table, if you can look at ways to tilt the dice in your favor, you'll tend to win more than your opponent. Your self evaluation should reflect the mathematics of the game, not your emotional feelings (I always lose against that ship/build/person, this ship always rolls lucky dice for me). Ultimately, math wins.

Beyond that, I often start with the current meta and ask for any fleet build exactly how I'm going to counter that archetype. Presently, Rhymer balls and Demolisher activation builds pop up a lot, so one key question is how exactly am I going to counter those two builds with a given fleet. If you've got an answer for the Rhymer ball, you probably have the same answer for other squadrons more generally. If you've got an answer for Demolisher, then you've probably got an answer for other swarm builds with high bids.

Awesome first post, and when you get up more thoughts, let us all know. This could easily be a great discussion.

everyone that thinks there is nothing wrong with it and its not over powered: don't use it in your force for a year.

I though it over powered the first game I played and I used it to kill 3 ships.

everyone that thinks there is nothing wrong with it and its not over powered: don't use it in your force for a year.

I though it over powered the first game I played and I used it to kill 3 ships.

This thread is intended to be about Fleet building

Sure, but it seems like Demolisher is having a huge impact on fleet builds and bids. Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe that will be a big turn off for many. I can say for me at least it's making me focus much more on bids, deployments, Objectives and actiavtions than I was use to. I'm in the end OK with that, but still I'm not so sure that a 10pt upgrade should be having the impact that appears to be playing out in relation to the OP.

I do like the metaphor in the OP of using a hand of cards for your fleet build, but in that the Demolisher is looking more and more like the "Ace up your sleeve" in this metaphor.

Sure, but it seems like Demolisher is having a huge impact on fleet builds and bids. Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe that will be a big turn off for many. I can say for me at least it's making me focus much more on bids, deployments, Objectives and actiavtions than I was use to. I'm in the end OK with that, but still I'm not so sure that a 10pt upgrade should be having the impact that appears to be playing out in relation to the OP.

I do like the metaphor in the OP of using a hand of cards for your fleet build, but in that the Demolisher is looking more and more like the "Ace up your sleeve" in this metaphor.

I'm fine with discussing demolisher just leave the "OMG it's broken" stuff to the other thread.

Great topic, Clon!

Any thoughts on how to add a maneuverability rating into the hand?

Maybe average speed & # of turns at max effective speed? (So, a GSD + Engine Techs = 4 clicks, Speed 4, while VSD = 1 click, Speed 2)

The 2 reference fleets are:

Clonisher - 3.2 clicks, 4 Speed

Ackbar - 2 clicks, 2.7 Speed

Great topic, Clon!

Any thoughts on how to add a maneuverability rating into the hand?

Maybe average speed & # of turns at max effective speed? (So, a GSD + Engine Techs = 4 clicks, Speed 4, while VSD = 1 click, Speed 2)

The 2 reference fleets are:

Clonisher - 3.2 clicks, 4 Speed

Ackbar - 2 clicks, 2.7 Speed

i would add "highly manuverble" to the "misc" card section

if your looking for a better scale it would certainly be a interesting thing to create...

any have Ideas?

A few thoughts on fleetbuilding:

Tl:dr version:

Cluster bombs are amazing dude!

You have a point. Viperous currently has a triple YV-666, bossk, Raider II with Impetus and Ruthless Strategist.

He has taken the mostundervalued of squadrons and turned it into an absolute monster of an anti squadron group.

Similarly, projection experts become insane with auto repairing mc80s. There are many cards that become ridiculous if built a certain way.

Taking a person centered approach to list building can pay dividends. What do I mean by this....

Before you build a list think about your preferences and who you are....

1) do you naturally play aggressively or defensively ? are you proactive or more reactive ? are you a "lead them to a trap" Type or bash em in the face.....

2) do you like simplicity or complexity

3) what grates and irritates you (does speed two piss you off)

4) what models do you think look good

5) do you get more satisfaction from killing ships or playing a mission well and racking up tokens

If you consider all your preferences and build a list around those you will maximise you enjoyment of your list and work to your strengths, this will pay dividends because:

1) you are likely to develop a far deeper understand of how your list plays well.

2) you will become less stressed and therefore less fatigued playing it ( important in armada comps)

3) when we do get tired and fatigued we are more likely to revert to type, so a defensive player will go defensive and aggressive players will attack etc..... All fine if you have built your list around your preferences.....bad for you if not.

This has always been one of my problems as I've always played rebels since wave 1. I know how to play and win with rebels, the problems occurs in long games late in the evening or late in tourments when I start to get to aggressive and direct for the rebel lists I've been playing with.

When I thought it Through...

1) I like to go strait at a problem and play aggressively

2) simplicity is golden

3) I'm not very patient

4) faster is better

5) I much preffer winning by killing ships.....destruction over missions......

6) in my view the imperial models are "Star Wars" and they make me feel like it's Christmas Day in the early 80s, I just want to play them.

7) fighters just get in the way of driving my ships at high speed strait towards the enemy....shooting the hell out of them at close range and then sprinting away ready to set up on the next victim....

Of course you then need to look at all your other "cards in your hand"as highlighted by the other posters, but I just wanted to showcase the person aspect of list building.

This of course brings into light one disadvantage of net listing......

I feel like you're giving me the tactical "finger"

C'mon, that was funny

I feel like you're giving me the tactical "finger"

C'mon, that was funny

You just dont have my... ergh... touch.

Now thats a "sarcasm" finger right there.

*sits back and enjoys likes come rushing in*

That's an interesting way to quantify builds. I do agree with the premise that right now with wave 1 and 2 only available to us that fleet builds and objective selections factors more into winning game rather than play style or skills. Not to say skills isn't important, just that a good build gives you a much more severe edge than say an equivalent game of X-Wing.

A few thoughts on fleetbuilding:

You have a point. Viperous currently has a triple YV-666, bossk, Raider II with Impetus and Ruthless Strategist.

He has taken the mostundervalued of squadrons and turned it into an absolute monster of an anti squadron group.

Similarly, projection experts become insane with auto repairing mc80s. There are many cards that become ridiculous if built a certain way.

That's the kind of stuff I love to hear about. I think we've really only touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of creativity.

There's also a not so obvious dimension that comes with experience on the actual board.

I've always thought Boosk was a really good card. He's also got at least 76 points between the cards and the upgrades invested in anti-squadron activities, and I think we should count at least some of the cost of the actual Raider II itself, though I'm uncertain exactly how much. Dumping that many points into anti-squadron should make it extremely effective.

A few thoughts on fleetbuilding:

You have a point. Viperous currently has a triple YV-666, bossk, Raider II with Impetus and Ruthless Strategist.

He has taken the mostundervalued of squadrons and turned it into an absolute monster of an anti squadron group.

Similarly, projection experts become insane with auto repairing mc80s. There are many cards that become ridiculous if built a certain way.

That's the kind of stuff I love to hear about. I think we've really only touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of creativity.

There's also a not so obvious dimension that comes with experience on the actual board.

I've always thought Boosk was a really good card. He's also got at least 76 points between the cards and the upgrades invested in anti-squadron activities, and I think we should count at least some of the cost of the actual Raider II itself, though I'm uncertain exactly how much. Dumping that many points into anti-squadron should make it extremely effective.

LIKE A BOSSK!!!

A few thoughts on fleetbuilding:

You have a point. Viperous currently has a triple YV-666, bossk, Raider II with Impetus and Ruthless Strategist.

He has taken the mostundervalued of squadrons and turned it into an absolute monster of an anti squadron group.

Similarly, projection experts become insane with auto repairing mc80s. There are many cards that become ridiculous if built a certain way.

That's the kind of stuff I love to hear about. I think we've really only touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of creativity.

There's also a not so obvious dimension that comes with experience on the actual board.

I've always thought Boosk was a really good card. He's also got at least 76 points between the cards and the upgrades invested in anti-squadron activities, and I think we should count at least some of the cost of the actual Raider II itself, though I'm uncertain exactly how much. Dumping that many points into anti-squadron should make it extremely effective.

You could say he kills squadrons...

LIKE A BOSSK!!!

...and when facing Dutch/Wedge he pretty much just sits there until he BURNZ LIEK A BOOSK! MOAHHAHAHAHAH

(good OP btw)

A few thoughts on fleetbuilding:

You have a point. Viperous currently has a triple YV-666, bossk, Raider II with Impetus and Ruthless Strategist.

He has taken the mostundervalued of squadrons and turned it into an absolute monster of an anti squadron group.

Similarly, projection experts become insane with auto repairing mc80s. There are many cards that become ridiculous if built a certain way.

That's the kind of stuff I love to hear about. I think we've really only touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of creativity.

There's also a not so obvious dimension that comes with experience on the actual board.

I've always thought Boosk was a really good card. He's also got at least 76 points between the cards and the upgrades invested in anti-squadron activities, and I think we should count at least some of the cost of the actual Raider II itself, though I'm uncertain exactly how much. Dumping that many points into anti-squadron should make it extremely effective.

You could say he kills squadrons...

LIKE A BOSSK!!!

...and when facing Dutch/Wedge he pretty much just sits there until he BURNZ LIEK A BOOSK! MOAHHAHAHAHAH

(good OP btw)

No, I partially disagree with this ( ). Ok, this is how I would go about avoiding this (with my current list). Even if Wedge and Dutch had activated with Squad comms, they still aren't gonna one-shot Bossk together so...

1) So far, I've always tried to keep Bossk + co close to the Impetuous (for obvious reasons).

2) I try to have the initiative, and I'm looking to increase by bid from 12.

3) I activate Impetuous (Squad comm) and attack Wedge with Bossk (or a regular YV if you feel like it) and roll 3 damage. He braces, 2 damage.

4) Impetuous attacks, rolls 2 damage from 3 dice vs Wedge (Kallus), he braces and suffers 1 damage and then I Ruthless Strategist on Bossk (or a YV), Wedge has 1 hull left.

5) Repeat step 4) with Dutch, also rolling 3 Anti-squad and RSing accordingly using other YVs as bait.

6) Short interlude here while I shoot some more squads or a ship out of another hull zone.

7) Impetuous special attack (3 dice). I can kill Wedge with 1 damage but he's dead regardless due to Ruthless Strategist anyway so the result only really matters for Bossk's sake.

This is why with a ton of hull points (Bossk, the Yvs and I'm now thinking about adding Mauler, some advanceds and Chiraneu on my ISD with the potential to do even more damage) is great for RS anti-squadron, and coupled with the Han Solo-equivalent squad attack I think actually quite like YVs.

I'm working on a list with a "Bossk-Ball" with Bossk, 2 YVs, 2 Tie Advanceds, Mauler and potentially a Jumpmaster.

Or perhaps I'm just going a bit over the top here...

YOU GET NECROMANCY!!

Remember when we could quote people who had quoted people who had quoted people?