Decent showing for T-65s: Janson in Top 4 and quad Rookie in Top 8.

This regional is an excellent testament to the philosophy of better to know your squad inside out and how to fly it than to rely on a "power list" doing your work for you.

Is it? I'm not certain we can make that statement. It assumes a lot.

Maybe it is a testament that not everyone wants to fly the Cheeze du Jour? (Although there are still 4 Palp Aces lists, each of a different flavor, and one Wolfpack). [Or as CheapCreep says - are there more players wanting to avoid the stigma of playing said Cheeze du Jour? I mean right now winning with the Wolfpack is a somewhat tainted win since a large number of players are going to assume it was the list that won and not the player. I rarely hear the term Net Decking used positively.]

Not that we can actually tell what all was flown that day since it claims that there were 109 participants (supposedly), but some 75% have unreported player names and lists.

Maybe it is a testament that not everyone wants to fly the Cheeze du Jour? (Although there are still 4 Palp Aces lists, each of a different flavor, and one Wolfpack).

And only one of those made Top 8.

How about that crazy double K list that made the cut? It had a monster 976 MoV, an ace killing machine.

Bandit Squadron Pilot
Warden Squadron Pilot + Twin Laser Turret + Extra Munitions + Intelligence Agent + Proximity Mines + Seismic Charges + Advanced SLAM
Miranda Doni + Twin Laser Turret + Extra Munitions + Sabine Wren + Seismic Charges + Thermal Detonators + Advanced SLAM + Proximity Mines
(100)

It's good to see a T65 swarm get passed the murderers row that was the Chicago Regionals qualification swiss (really, there was some serious talent in there) . IA is definitely helping. I still want a s-foils-in-attack-position title that gives it another attack die though :-)

This is identical to that argument, except in this case the D6's were also at a slight advantage(compared to their baseline disadvantage) because the D100's did not have any practice against the D6, whereas the D6 had plenty of practice against the D100's.

It's a garbage statement, which does nothing more than ignores the actual discussion at hand.

How many tournament results do we need to have before it becomes a statistically significant number?

One. Because if one person achieve decent results with an unexpected list, so can another (assuming the other in question has the self confidence to step off the meta bandwagon, that is).

Of course, from what I've seen from the wannabe statisticians on this forum, EVERYTHING is an outlier and can be safely ignored (until it happens to them, of course - then it's podcast material and worthy of discussion).

I feel as if there are a lot of lists that could work....if someone spent a lot of time practicing with it and learning how to fly against the meta lists. I have flown 4 Tie Bomber lists and I've been crushed by lists before, but kept at it until I found the key to winning the game.

There is also the fact that a lot of people haven't flown against your type of a list before....or...not in a long time. So, their current list hasn't flown against it...and that makes a big difference. If you know how to beat U-boats with 4 T-65's, but the U-boat player doesn't know how to beat 4 x T-65, then you have the advantage. Those that I have practiced against with my 4 Tie Bombers have an easier time beating me than those I face in tournaments as they know how to fly against it.

I feel as if there are a lot of lists that could work....if someone spent a lot of time practicing with it and learning how to fly against the meta lists. I have flown 4 Tie Bomber lists and I've been crushed by lists before, but kept at it until I found the key to winning the game.

There is also the fact that a lot of people haven't flown against your type of a list before....or...not in a long time. So, their current list hasn't flown against it...and that makes a big difference. If you know how to beat U-boats with 4 T-65's, but the U-boat player doesn't know how to beat 4 x T-65, then you have the advantage. Those that I have practiced against with my 4 Tie Bombers have an easier time beating me than those I face in tournaments as they know how to fly against it.

I whole heartedly agree with this statement. I have beaten many lists that I technically shouldn't have using Starvipers / Defenders just because the list is somewhat subpar. Practising with a list, knowing how it handles in certain situations and what you can expect from it are half the battle in my opinion.

Throw in the fact that some people have out right admitted that they have never flown against a Viper or Defender before, but have simply heard of it and then expect to win against it. Even at the point of deployment, people smirk and comment how X is overcosted or inefficient. They change their tune when they lose, blame cold dice, bull abilities/combos or unexpected outcomes. Yeah, unexpected outcomes, from a ship you have no experience against yet you are flying something that is most likely on every other table.

With regards to the XXXXZ list, its a point and shoot list essentially, but so is a U-boat list. Difference being that its much harder to get three U boats firing at the same ship then it is to have five small ships pounding a large base. With a pit of placement luck, i.e. avoiding the truly hard counters like a Phantom, he could of made it further then people thought.

How about that crazy double K list that made the cut? It had a monster 976 MoV, an ace killing machine.

Bandit Squadron Pilot

Warden Squadron Pilot + Twin Laser Turret + Extra Munitions + Intelligence Agent + Proximity Mines + Seismic Charges + Advanced SLAM

Miranda Doni + Twin Laser Turret + Extra Munitions + Sabine Wren + Seismic Charges + Thermal Detonators + Advanced SLAM + Proximity Mines

(100)

It's good to see a T65 swarm get passed the murderers row that was the Chicago Regionals qualification swiss (really, there was some serious talent in there) . IA is definitely helping. I still want a s-foils-in-attack-position title that gives it another attack die though :-)

I thought I heard on reddit that it got in with 2 IDs?

List juggler had the final standings incorrect for some players. Joshua lost in the top 16 to Zachary. Zachary eventually went on to play Dom in the finals.

There is still something reported incorrectly because there are 3 top 4's and 3 top 8's. I do not recall who won the game between Michael McFarlin and Leander Smith during the second elimination round.

One.

Cool. Let's all fly 6 sigma then. I'm sure we'll all make cut at World's.

^{List juggler had the final standings incorrect for some players. Joshua lost in the top 16 to Zachary. Zachary eventually went on to play Dom in the finals.}

^{There is still something reported incorrectly because there are 3 top 4's and 3 top 8's. I do not recall who won the game between Michael McFarlin and Leander Smith during the second elimination round.}

^{List Juggler does not show the details of each round for this event.}

^{- His Score Shows 21 points. Was that from a Bye, 2 full wins, and 2 modified?}

^{Whatever the reason - Top 16 finish with T65s deserves some respect. Good too see him flying the ship the game is named after.}

I feel as if there are a lot of lists that could work....if someone spent a lot of time practicing with it and learning how to fly against the meta lists. I have flown 4 Tie Bomber lists and I've been crushed by lists before, but kept at it until I found the key to winning the game.

There is also the fact that a lot of people haven't flown against your type of a list before....or...not in a long time. So, their current list hasn't flown against it...and that makes a big difference. If you know how to beat U-boats with 4 T-65's, but the U-boat player doesn't know how to beat 4 x T-65, then you have the advantage. Those that I have practiced against with my 4 Tie Bombers have an easier time beating me than those I face in tournaments as they know how to fly against it.

One.

Cool. Let's all fly 6 sigma then. I'm sure we'll all make cut at World's.

And that's missing the point. A well-made custom list you know beats a netlist the opponent doesn't.

The meta is a popularity feedback loop. Look at the last three Worlds, all won by Paul Heaver. Those weren't won by copying a list of the internet, they were won by skill and by exploiting everyone else doing that. XXBB was straight out of left field (it became a meta list because of Worlds), Paul Heaver's Fat Falcon was designed to kill other Fat Falcons, and his list at the last Worlds was a Rebel toolbox that hasn't taken off because it doesn't work at all for netlisters.

Rigid adherence to the metagame can get you far, but not all the way.

I have yet to fly it but my first thought with IA was to run BBXXZ. You get the barrel-rolls and HP of the B's while the X's allow you to go a little faster without stress. Will need to "fly even better" but definitely a squad that I would enjoy.

One day a guy with a Brown Bess killed a soldier armed with a AK. AK must be obsolete...

Hey look, there's THAT logical fallacy again. You know, the old "D6 occasionally rolls higher than D100" argument, which ignores what everyone is actually talking about in favour of a witty (to the author, at least) soundbyte.

Good job, Hexbot. Good job.

This is identical to that argument, except in this case the D6's were also at a slight advantage(compared to their baseline disadvantage) because the D100's did not have any practice against the D6, whereas the D6 had plenty of practice against the D100's.

The idea that ONE person's results mean anything is more than a little ridiculous.

But, when we are talking about the metagame, the outliers are important. When all you are seeing is the Gatekeepers, then there is a bit of an issue. Looking at the results of this Regional, it is somewhat troubling that Imps are revolving around 2 basic builds, although there is some interesting variety in the builds. But even then, 2 Decimators made the cut. Which, who expected that. And the Rebels are just insane with some variety. Scum didn't have a great showing, but we know there is some variety making the cut based on the GA Regional.

What a one person showing does is show viability. Is it going to be the gatekeeper, which the meta will revolve around, no. But there are usually more squads than that.

One.

Cool. Let's all fly 6 sigma then. I'm sure we'll all make cut at World's.

And that's missing the point. A well-made custom list you know beats a netlist the opponent doesn't.

The meta is a popularity feedback loop. Look at the last three Worlds, all won by Paul Heaver. Those weren't won by copying a list of the internet, they were won by skill and by exploiting everyone else doing that. XXBB was straight out of left field (it became a meta list because of Worlds), Paul Heaver's Fat Falcon was designed to kill other Fat Falcons, and his list at the last Worlds was a Rebel toolbox that hasn't taken off because it doesn't work at all for netlisters.

Rigid adherence to the metagame can get you far, but not all the way.

I disagree with te idea that ONE result can tell you a ship is fine. Defenders made cuts. Do they not need an ace pack? A-wings made cuts pre-chardaan? Were they "fine"? Heck even Vader showed up at large events pre-ATC. Was he good? As it responsible to tell newer players that he was just dandy for competitive play?

Josh is a friend of mine. He took an ID last round, risking his spot to possible secure a spot in top 16. Paid off.

I believe he didn't face a single u-boat or crack swarm build all day, and his only loss came from me (jax, wamp, OL and palp shuttle)

He did well

Edit: I actually think 3 of his matches where palp aces or some mixture of that... which is all we practiced before the regional (its all I fly) so he had really good experience vs palp aces

Edit: I actually think 3 of his matches where palp aces or some mixture of that... which is all we practiced before the regional (its all I fly) so he had really good experience vs palp aces

I feel as if there are a lot of lists that could work....if someone spent a lot of time practicing with it and learning how to fly against the meta lists. I have flown 4 Tie Bomber lists and I've been crushed by lists before, but kept at it until I found the key to winning the game.

There is also the fact that a lot of people haven't flown against your type of a list before....or...not in a long time. So, their current list hasn't flown against it...and that makes a big difference. If you know how to beat U-boats with 4 T-65's, but the U-boat player doesn't know how to beat 4 x T-65, then you have the advantage. Those that I have practiced against with my 4 Tie Bombers have an easier time beating me than those I face in tournaments as they know how to fly against it.

Agreed. I always take lists that I hope people haven't seen before to competitive events for this reason. This does not mean they are as good as the meta though, only that my temporary expertise advantage in the matchup is worth a little more than the gap to a meta list for me.

I'm often in the same boat. I know I'm not going to have the time and perhaps ability to get as good with some of the high end meta lists as a lot of players. I can probably be the best with whatever weird little squad I end up running, though, at least for a day.

I feel as if there are a lot of lists that could work....if someone spent a lot of time practicing with it and learning how to fly against the meta lists. I have flown 4 Tie Bomber lists and I've been crushed by lists before, but kept at it until I found the key to winning the game.

There is also the fact that a lot of people haven't flown against your type of a list before....or...not in a long time. So, their current list hasn't flown against it...and that makes a big difference. If you know how to beat U-boats with 4 T-65's, but the U-boat player doesn't know how to beat 4 x T-65, then you have the advantage. Those that I have practiced against with my 4 Tie Bombers have an easier time beating me than those I face in tournaments as they know how to fly against it.

Agreed. I always take lists that I hope people haven't seen before to competitive events for this reason. This does not mean they are as good as the meta though, only that my temporary expertise advantage in the matchup is worth a little more than the gap to a meta list for me.

I'm often in the same boat. I know I'm not going to have the time and perhaps ability to get as good with some of the high end meta lists as a lot of players. I can probably be the best with whatever weird little squad I end up running, though, at least for a day.

The list has legs to stand on, but what prevents it from being hyper-competetive is that it doesn't have 'unfair' elements.

That, and some of the named Imperial Ace pilots still have a higher jousting efficiency than the Rookie +R2/IA. And that's before Palpatine.

One list, at one event, once.Yep, case closed!

Wes was also in the top 8, and there were 3 T-65s in the top 8 of the Georgia Regionals last week. I went through all the hard work of copy/pasting that link to list juggler, I'm kind of hurt you didn't click on it before making assumptions.

A ship that can put multiple players in multiple Regionals top 8s with multiple builds does not need a fix.

Ship viability and tournament placement is an analog problem. There is no specific transition point where a ship would suddenly go from being low-tier completely uncompetitive to suddenly consistently placing at the top of tournament results. Player skill is still the most important factor in who wins, so tournament metadata is expected to follow an analog distribution.

The T-65 + R2/IA is one of the better generic 3-dice jousters in the game. The problem is that all of the generic jousters in the game have lower brute force cost efficiency than any of the following:

• Palp Aces
• PS4 Crackshot swarms
• Triple JumpMaster Torpedo

The X-wing is still not at the same tier as the above ships, but it's not horribly outclassed like many other ships (generic M3-A, StarVipers, TIE Bombers pre Imp vets, etc etc). It's good enough that a skilled and practiced player can still do well with it versus inferior opponents, but the problem is that at the top tables at these large regionals, there will be some very good players that will know how to take advantage of the ship's obvious weaknesses. Therefore, the expected forecast for the generic T-65s this season should be a light sprinkling, perhaps occasionally making the cut, but generally not making it very far past that.

^{List juggler had the final standings incorrect for some players. Joshua lost in the top 16 to Zachary. Zachary eventually went on to play Dom in the finals.}

^{There is still something reported incorrectly because there are 3 top 4's and 3 top 8's. I do not recall who won the game between Michael McFarlin and Leander Smith during the second elimination round.}

^{List Juggler does not show the details of each round for this event.}

^{- His Score Shows 21 points. Was that from a Bye, 2 full wins, and 2 modified?}

^{Whatever the reason - Top 16 finish with T65s deserves some respect. Good too see him flying the ship the game is named after.}

I proposed the ID against Joshua in the final round to secure both of our spots in the top 16 (21 points). I was flying the Yorr, Inquisitor, Jax list. Joshua deserves a lot of credit for bringing 4X's and a Z to a regional and making it that far.

After accepting the ID he started to regret his decision. So we played it out anyways. He was glad he took the ID after we finished the game.

^{List juggler had the final standings incorrect for some players. Joshua lost in the top 16 to Zachary. Zachary eventually went on to play Dom in the finals.}

^{There is still something reported incorrectly because there are 3 top 4's and 3 top 8's. I do not recall who won the game between Michael McFarlin and Leander Smith during the second elimination round.}

^{List Juggler does not show the details of each round for this event.}

^{- His Score Shows 21 points. Was that from a Bye, 2 full wins, and 2 modified?}

^{Whatever the reason - Top 16 finish with T65s deserves some respect. Good too see him flying the ship the game is named after.}

I proposed the ID against Joshua in the final round to secure both of our spots in the top 16 (21 points). I was flying the Yorr, Inquisitor, Jax list. Joshua deserves a lot of credit for bringing 4X's and a Z to a regional and making it that far.

After accepting the ID he started to regret his decision. So we played it out anyways. He was glad he took the ID after we finished the game.

Isn't this collusion?

^{List juggler had the final standings incorrect for some players. Joshua lost in the top 16 to Zachary. Zachary eventually went on to play Dom in the finals.}

^{There is still something reported incorrectly because there are 3 top 4's and 3 top 8's. I do not recall who won the game between Michael McFarlin and Leander Smith during the second elimination round.}

^{List Juggler does not show the details of each round for this event.}

^{- His Score Shows 21 points. Was that from a Bye, 2 full wins, and 2 modified?}

^{Whatever the reason - Top 16 finish with T65s deserves some respect. Good too see him flying the ship the game is named after.}

I proposed the ID against Joshua in the final round to secure both of our spots in the top 16 (21 points). I was flying the Yorr, Inquisitor, Jax list. Joshua deserves a lot of credit for bringing 4X's and a Z to a regional and making it that far.

After accepting the ID he started to regret his decision. So we played it out anyways. He was glad he took the ID after we finished the game.

Isn't this collusion?

Technically all IDs are collusion. I think FFG decided it was easier to make this specific form of collusion legal than to try to police it, though they may be reversing that decision.

Not to be a jerk but the situation sounds extremely unsporting. I'd be very unimpressed if I were an attendee at this tourney. Two friends just conspired to use the rules to secure themselves a spot that one of them clearly didn't deserve. They even played the game to prove it. The Imp player should have played the match and taken his win.