I've been reading old fictions and came upon the battle of Volturnum. Man, Adoria was super scary. Here is my list for the top 5 of the most powerful villians of Rokugan

1. Daigotsu (=P)

2. Fu Leng

3. Kali-Ma

4. Goju Adoria

5. Yajinden

What are your list?

1. FFG.

From what I've heard, the AEG Brand team. (Honorable mention: Story Team)

Goju Adorai .

P'an Ku

The L5R community.

Putting aside the odd jab about AEG/the fanbase/Chinese shipping...

The supernaturally powerful villains usually ended up boring me... but my five favorite villains?

In no particular order-

Moto Chagatai

Hantei XVI

Hida Kisada

Susumu

Yogo Junzo (the ONE time Taint added something meaningful to a villain)

From what I've heard, the AEG Brand team. (Honorable mention: Story Team)

The L5R community.

Yeah, these are obviously the real answers.... Of course, Wizards of the Coast did them few favors. Some of the stuff was just silly before that point (the way the Scorpion Clan was generally handled after having assassinated the emperor and the circumstances under which they were allowed to return and how quickly everyone just went back to pretending that they had never been exiled so that they could remain a viable player faction), but once WotC got ahold of things some of the stuff they threw in there just to go hog wild with experimentation really derailed much about the setting.

The in-game personality threats were always dealt with in such a ludicrously simple way that it really is difficult to take any of them seriously.

Fu Leng possessed the emperor and got taken down in a way that I'm surprised anyone was ever able to take him seriously as a threat again.

Iuchiban came out of the gate by doing perhaps the single most destructive acts that had ever been done by any opposition force... and then just utterly face-planted and failed spectacularly.

Only Mary Sue Daigotsu with his super thick plot armor that made the most honorable and strict people around him suddenly act either as though they had been beaten half-to-death with the stupid stick or to go from someone who held such a high standard that they would execute people over the smallest imagined slight to suddenly being completely open to forgiving over the most ludicrously vile of acts, deepest violations of honor and just plain sacrileges.

But, no. No matter how many times he should have been killed. No matter how totally he was defeated. No matter how little sense it made for him to be allowed to draw another breath.... things just kept working out in his favor over and over and over again until the story team ultimately destroyed everything that was fundamentally important in the game to this singular character, having him literally do the 'impossible' and purify a god and rid the land of the singular existential threat that defined why everyone had ever done anything in the setting. Which I guess makes him an anti-threat in character except he destroyed the whole game.

Kali-Ma was sort of a joke. There was no real push behind it and she was destroyed in nearly as anti-climatic and meaningless of a manner as Iuchiban.

Moto Chagai led his army on this big charge to take the seat of the empire and upon reaching the capital..... saw the sun was shining and all the merry little Unicorn decided to skip back home singing nursery rhymes and everyone instantly forgot anything had ever happened. Probably the single most face-palming ending to any major storyline there ever could have been.

Big nothingness that robs the universe of identities by stealing names.... I dub the "Akodo" because no one is using the name.... except, of course, the Kami and all the ancestors in heaven so... wait.... what?

Basically however terrifying any of them were supposed to be, they all went down in such simplistic, self-defeating or just utterly meaningless ways that one cannot really respect any of them.

You forgot about PanKu. The physical and spiritual embodiement of madness, who pushed the whole colonies towards a path of crazy self-destruction, and a single guy tells him ''This is wrong, you know.'', and he stops to whole thing.

You forgot about PanKu. I'm the physical and spiritual embodiement of madness. I pushed the whole colonies towards a path of crazy self-destruction, and a single guy tells me ''This is wrong, you know.'', and I stop to whole thing.

I wasn't pay attention at that point, but basically it fits the model.

A lot of the threats basically involved at first thinking of something that was so monumentally powerful and such an existential threat that it didn't seem as though any mortal instrument could stop it. And in that initial story do some epically destructive thing to the empire so it sounds as though it is brought low-- although nothing else in the remainder of the storyline or future ones is going to much imply that there was all that much lost. After all, things must inevitably snap as much as possible back to the status quo for the base factions.

Then since the rest of the story is based on whomever wins in the tournaments, which is only revealed at most two days before the resulting story appears, the people writing it don't have very much time to really find a good way to make some of it work. Also, because only one faction might possibly represent the bad guys and they rarely are the faction with the unfair advantage in the format, the bad guys never display any sort of success or competence after that initial introduction.

And then in the end its either resolved in a way that feels like "well, I guess things would have worked themselves out if we had all done nothing at all" or "is that really all that needed to be done? I mean, anyone could have done that. Doesn't make us feel particularly heroic to have done the simple thing that apparently no one had thought to try up to that point."

And, of course, no matter what none of the factions can be totally crushed effectively out of existence and everything must, as much as possible, go back to the status quo. Which is why the Unicorn can go on a rampage all the way to the capital and then just not even remotely bother to try to take it regardless of what was said of their fury and bravery up to that point because... well.... we can't very well have the Unicorn clan champion and his closest advisers die in a big epic battle against the protectors of the Empress because... well... no more Unicorn clan.

Its the same reason that apparently sneaking back into the empire while you are exiled, creating a fake identity and lying about who you are, infiltrating the imperial palace with sword in hand and winning a sword fight while assassinating and bribing an unknown number of people to get all this done demonstrates that your clan is so beyond reproach in their honor that they should all immediately be forgiven for the giant campaign of assassination that took the life of the previous emperor and given back their lands and titles and totally put complete trust in them...

Because if intelligent, honorable people don't act wildly contrary to everything both common sense and honor dictate, we can't get back to the safe status quo. So that's how they act.

As such, you can't really put out a gallery of Rokugan's biggest villains. Because they were all crazy, wild ideas that were all easily dispatched. The more insanely powerful and "unstoppable" they were initially presented, the more they self-destruct or have some dumb trick to easily defeat them.

They really should stick to mortal villains. They could be so very much more compelling than cosmic force ones.

The only problem is the tendency the writers had to make any such villains 'break good' if they survived long enough to make any impact.

TheHobgoblyn, chill dude... I think you need a long vacation

Re: Chill pill: Agreed, but

A lot of the threats basically involved at first thinking of something that was so monumentally powerful and such an existential threat that it didn't seem as though any mortal instrument could stop it. And in that initial story do some epically destructive thing to the empire so it sounds as though it is brought low-- although nothing else in the remainder of the storyline or future ones is going to much imply that there was all that much lost. After all, things must inevitably snap as much as possible back to the status quo for the base factions.

It always amused me how much at odds this storytelling technique was with the fact that, by the end of a CCG match, one clan was either destroyed (militarily or politically), or had gained control of the courts or the spiritual body of the Empire. Just seems to suggest the need for a more progressionist narrative.

Setting-Flavor Iuchiban. A completely different villain from Iuchizilla we got post-RoB.

1. Fu Leng

2. The Lying Darkness

3. The Shuten Doji- Didn't get a lot of use specifically, but there's an insane amount of potential there.

4. Pre-RoB Iuchiban (Good call, IsawaChuckles)

5. Setting-Flavor Hantei XVI- the 2nd time he felt like just another big bad. The first time, an insane, tyrannical Son of Heaven can do (and did) a TON of damage.

Honorable Mentions:

Moto Tsume- While there were certainly more powerful villains, the story involving him and Iuchi Karasu in Bearers of Jade is, in my opinion, the most terrifying portrayal we've gotten of a Rokugani villain.

Daigotsu- Did a lot of great, villainous things, but had their impacted lessened by all the time spent being a Mary Sue.

5. Setting-Flavor Hantei XVI- the 2nd time he felt like just another big bad. The first time, an insane, tyrannical Son of Heaven can do (and did) a TON of damage.

Did he? I think he taught (or at least tried to teach) very valuable lesson that was completely ignored for the sake of convenience.

Anyway, in my opinion, the most terrifying enemies of the Empire were those people who were actually celebrated as heroes because they set out a certain "wrong idol" effect:

1. Isawa Tadaka is absolutely first. Personally responsible for the Second Day of Thunder, Tainted, summoned and Oni and gave it his name, almost handled the victory to Fu Leng, had no regrets about any of these things... and is celebrated as one of the greatest heroes of his time.

2. Hida Kisada is a close second. Devastated the Empire by allying with the Shadowlands, sacrificed his own son for Fu Leng, completely messed up his other son, and when he lost, he said "sorry" and got elevated to be the Fortune of Persistence.

3. Togashi, because he could have prevented everything, but he chose to not do so because "muh fate" and stuff.

4. Kaneka/Isawa Sezaru/Hantei Nesaru. The completely pointless rivalry between Kaneka and Nesaru was only overshadowed by Sezaru's inability to do anything about it. These three not only wrecked their father's legacy but also threw the only person who could have salvaged the situation (Tsudao) to the wolves... quite literally if I may say so.

5. Kakita. I'm pretty sure that this guy caused more suffering with his presumption than Daigotsu and Kachiko combined . His relatively early death was most likely a blessing to the Empire and the Crane Clan.

Honorable mention goes to Matsu Tsuko and Bayushi Kachiko (they were women, so them acting like b*tches was somewhat expected all things considered ), as well as Akodo (he was okay at least on a theoretical level) and Hantei Genji (he had the chance to fix everything, but he let it pass with a sigh).

5. Setting-Flavor Hantei XVI- the 2nd time he felt like just another big bad. The first time, an insane, tyrannical Son of Heaven can do (and did) a TON of damage.

Did he? I think he taught (or at least tried to teach) very valuable lesson that was completely ignored for the sake of convenience.

A villain often teaches valuable lessons by doing damage. He certainly did that. That's one of the main reasons he made my list. While others were more powerful due to supernatural abilities and whatnot, Hantei XVI forced Rokugan to learn just how damaging having a paranoid psycho as Emperor can be/ how the protections afforded the Son of Heaven will allow such a person to get away with atrocities before many samurai will step in and do something about it.

Whether the Empire ignored that lesson or not is another matter entirely.

5. Setting-Flavor Hantei XVI- the 2nd time he felt like just another big bad. The first time, an insane, tyrannical Son of Heaven can do (and did) a TON of damage.

Did he? I think he taught (or at least tried to teach) very valuable lesson that was completely ignored for the sake of convenience.

A villain often teaches valuable lessons by doing damage. He certainly did that. That's one of the main reasons he made my list. While others were more powerful due to supernatural abilities and whatnot, Hantei XVI forced Rokugan to learn just how damaging having a paranoid psycho as Emperor can be/ how the protections afforded the Son of Heaven will allow such a person to get away with atrocities before many samurai will step in and do something about it.

Whether the Empire ignored that lesson or not is another matter entirely.

Hey, its not like there was ever an emperor again who made one of their first acts something insane and destructive one of their first acts....

Like welcoming back the clan that killed the previous emperor and reinstating their rank as a major political power because one of them infiltrated his palace in disguise and won a sword fight.

Or making an edict that a lawless group of diseased, demonic zombie bandits would suddenly be free and welcome to wander the empire and would be afforded the rank of a Great Clan and all political power that came with it without any of the responsibilities and gave them full control over the previous imperial capital that they themselves had used evil magics to corrupt into a hellish nightmare city.

(I mean, seriously-- if Hantei XVI is in contention for this prize, Iweko really ought to be up for consideration too.)

Surely they wouldn't just put up with that insanity and self-destructive behavior on the part of a ruler without rebelling....

And most certainly they wouldn't do it after they all rose up in rebellion against the last Hantei on the mere rumor and speculation that he might, possibly be possessed by an ancient evil godling without any actual evidence to back this up except the word of a disbarred clan champion running around the landscape with a bunch of ronin....

......

Or maybe whether or not they learned the lesson boils simply down to plot contrivance. The characters don't act in internally consistent ways-- they just act however the current writer dictates they act because that was the desires of the person who won the card game tournament or just the way they need to act in order to set up the storyline so someone can win the tournament and pick the prize.

Hantei the XVI did way more than one insane, first act.

Here's some of what he did, as per the L5R wiki. Mind you, these are specific instances of villainy. There's a lot there to suggest a great deal more suffering under his rule that hasn't been detailed out-

-Arranged the death of his seven-year-old brother as a child.
-Soon after becoming Emperor, caused "thousands to die" by ordering his closest allies and the legions to stomp out any opposition to him, much of which was imagined.
-Destroyed the life of the current Emerald Champion/Crane Champion, causing him to "retire a broken man" after the Emperor took his only child as a concubine.

-Had all of his gardeners and servants within the gardens executed because his wife suffered an accident in the garden.
-Had a Crane provincial daimyo tortured and hanged for requesting extra time to pay taxes after several years of bad growing seasons in Crane Lands. Then proceeded to have the Golden Legion kill every person in said daimyo's province.
-Was seen as enough of a threat by Togashi that the Dragon Champion recalled nearly all Dragon samurai to their own provinces.

-Created his own secret police (The Steel Magistrates) to "root out treason" (when again, much of the "treason" he saw was entirely in his head).
-Had many Otomo with close ties to the imperial line executed without cause, most likely including his own father.
-Once she produced an heir, he had his wife confined to her chambers until death.
-Ordered the destruction of all Nezumi
-Refused to allow humanitarian aid for those suffering due to his madness and paranoia. The Phoenix had to send such help in secret.
-Sent the husband of Doji Nariko on a suicide mission and forced her to marry him. She threw herself off of a cliff.
-Ordered the torture and killing of a nobleman in open court. When Suzume Kurako, up until then one of his closest friends/advisors (and daughter of the Sparrow Champion) protested, he had her tortured, killed, and named the Fortune of Torture.

-Had one of his former friends named Fortune of Dung. When his mother protested, he had her publicly whipped and confined.
-Named an unknown individual the Fortune of Beetles.
-Named other Reverse Fortunes who've since been lost to history. (The naming of these Reverse Fortunes is thought to have caused years of worsening harvests across the Empire... which in Rokugan is a distinct possibility)
-Ceased holding open court and arranged the murders of most of his remaining siblings.
-Accused his remaining advisors of treason and had them tortured and executed.
-Had the Golden Legion disbanded and most of its officers killed for alleged complicity.
-Had all of his secret police executed by hanging for complicity.

-Discovered Phoenix humanitarian efforts and had Nikesake burned to the ground.
-Sent the Seppun to kill off the Mirumoto family. When 2 Mirumoto in their home province survived, he had 100 Seppun executed by hanging them on stakes along the Imperial Road at Otosan Uchi.
-Ordered his own mother's execution, having Hida Tsuneo kill her with his bare hands.

Or making an edict that a lawless group of diseased, demonic zombie bandits would suddenly be free and welcome to wander the empire and would be afforded the rank of a Great Clan and all political power that came with it without any of the responsibilities and gave them full control over the previous imperial capital that they themselves had used evil magics to corrupt into a hellish nightmare city.

...

Uh, you might have a shaky grasp of what happened there, man...

The Spider were made a Great Clan by Iweko after a literal deal with the devil, yes...

But they absolutely got responsibilities ("Go die in a monster-infested jungle to make it safe for real samurai"), and at NO point were they given control over the previous Imperial Capital in the canon storyline.

You can argue that letting the Spider in was a mistake (the storyline absolutely showed that it was by the time Zinser sold the setting), but let's not overstate the magnitude of the decision's insanity by getting our non-canon post-sale fan histories mixed up with what actually happened..

Or making an edict that a lawless group of diseased, demonic zombie bandits would suddenly be free and welcome to wander the empire and would be afforded the rank of a Great Clan and all political power that came with it without any of the responsibilities and gave them full control over the previous imperial capital that they themselves had used evil magics to corrupt into a hellish nightmare city.

...

Uh, you might have a shaky grasp of what happened there, man...

The Spider were made a Great Clan by Iweko after a literal deal with the devil, yes...

But they absolutely got responsibilities ("Go die in a monster-infested jungle to make it safe for real samurai"), and at NO point were they given control over the previous Imperial Capital in the canon storyline.

You can argue that letting the Spider in was a mistake (the storyline absolutely showed that it was by the time Zinser sold the setting), but let's not overstate the magnitude of the decision's insanity by getting our non-canon post-sale fan histories mixed up with what actually happened..

Well, the deal...

You see, that actually is a demonstration of another very troubling thing regarding the writing in L5R. All characters have perfect knowledge of everything.

If the readers are given knowledge that something that on the surface appears to be treason is actually the result of a backroom deal, then all people across all of Rokugan will simply accept that this is legitimate.

If the readers are told that something is the result of treasonous or ill action, all characters across all of Rokugan will also know that the individual is doing wrong and act to stop it.

If someone was previously depicted as a villain and then the readers get a story where somehow the villainy is given justification or context (an evil force compelled him to do it) even if this conversation is between a couple of individuals, then all people across all of Rokugan will instantly stop speaking of the individual as a villain.

That really is a problem, not unique to this story, but I have seen this happen in others-- characters acting as though they have perfect knowledge of the details of something they shouldn't be informed about. So if something seems like an evil act, they won't treat it as an evil act if it in fact isn't and will treat it as such if it in fact is.

Consorting with Daigotsu and naming the Spider a Great Clan is more evidence that Iweko had been possessed by Fu Leng than anything anyone outside of the 7 Thunders ever saw the last Hantei do.

That is not at all accurate as to how things went down with people knowing Hantei 39th was Fu Leng.

The Crab discovered this fact when they attacked Otosan Uchi and found the Emperor was possessed and had killed off the Seppun Miharu/ others in the Imperial Court. Hida Kisada got stabbed through the chest by the possessed Emperor, Yakamo pulled his wounded father from the city, and the Shadowlands turned on the Crab (and anyone else present) as they tried to escape.

The Lion were made aware of the fact when that went down, and both the Lion and Crab troops were being attacked as they fled the city.

Kachiko had already figured it out and made Aramoro aware. Information passed from there to other Scorpion contacts (such as the ninja Tantoko who attempted to assassinate the possessed Emperor using a jade goblet that could kill tainted individuals).

The Dragon were kept in the know thanks to Yokuni and the rest of the clan leadership.

The Crane discovered what happened when what was left of the Lion and Crab armies fell back to Doji lands to regroup and figure out what to do about the possessed Emperor.

Others found out after the Emperor canceled Winter Court. Hida Tsuru sent invitations for the clans to attend an equivalent event outside of Otosan Uchi. The leadership of the clans met there and found out the details about Fu Leng possessing Hantei XXXIX