How does Surge and Doomed really work?

By CookieWizard, in Rules questions & answers

Comparing the rules in the rulebook and clarification (1.01) in the FAQ, it is difficult to figure out if Doomed and Surge keywords only trigger during the staging step and setup, or anytime the card is revealed.

The rulebook is pretty clear:

Doomed X

If an encounter card with the doomed keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in setup, each player must raise his threat level by the specified value.

Surge

When an encounter card with the surge keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in setup, reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card.

So the the rulebook states that surge and doomed only happen during setup and the staging step. But the FAQ has this:

(1.01) Encounter Keywords

Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be resolved any time the card on which they occur is revealed from the encounter deck, including during setup.

Looking at the rules as written, it would be assumed that surge and doomed only trigger during the staging step and setup. Clarification (1.01) refers to the keyword which refers to the specific timing window. But the spirit of (1.01) implies that surge and doomed trigger on any reveal effect, not just those happening during the setup and the staging step.

Is there something I'm missing? I can really use some input on this.

They trigger any time the card is revealed.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where you're getting hung up.

Looking at the rules as written, it would be assumed that surge and doomed only trigger during the staging step and setup.

The Core set manual, yes. But the FAQ overrules the Core set when any conflicts arise.

Clarification (1.01) refers to the keyword which refers to the specific timing window.

This is what I didn't understand. Were you stating a problem in this sentence?

But the spirit of (1.01) implies that surge and doomed trigger on any reveal effect, not just those happening during the setup and the staging step.

Not implied. It is directly stated! Anytime the cards are revealed, regardless of what phase of the game you are in, you should resolve these keywords. Think of this as overruling the Core set's description of keywords as resolving only when revealed during staging or setup.

However, emphasis on "revealed". Effects that add cards to the staging area are not revealed.

Or did the FAQ contradict me and I'm not aware of it?

You're right Kakita, they do need to be revealed. Encounter card effects that "add" a card to the staging area without using the word "reveal" do not cause Surge/Doomed to trigger.

I guess I just wish the FAQ more directly contradicted the rules in the rulebook. Or the rulebook did not include the timing window.

My current interpretation on what surge does is:

When Revealed: if it is the setup or staging step, reveal and additional card from the top of the encounter deck after resolving any other "when revealed" effects on this card.

So when I read something like (1.01), I think of it as resolving this version of surge, the version I read in the rulebook.

1.01 should really be in the errata section and simply replace the rules from the rulebook rather than "clarify".

But the spirit of (1.01) implies that surge and doomed trigger on any reveal effect, not just those happening during the setup and the staging step.

Not implied. It is directly stated! Anytime the cards are revealed, regardless of what phase of the game you are in, you should resolve these keywords. Think of this as overruling the Core set's description of keywords as resolving only when revealed during staging or setup.

(1.01) states that the surge doomed and guarded keywords are resolved every time they are revealed. So as part of the surge and doomed resolution (based on the rulebook description), you check what phase you are in to see if it has any effect. So surge and doomed can resolve anytime, but they need to be revealed during setup or the staging step to have any effect. Similar to how you can resolve Evil Storm (Core 116) but is has no effect if none of the players have a threat of 35 or greater.

If there is a ruling or reminder text somewhere that surge and doomed are not checking what phase it is in in order to have an effect (because the only description I found was in the rulebook), can you point me to it?

Edited by CookieWizard

But the spirit of (1.01) implies that surge and doomed trigger on any reveal effect, not just those happening during the setup and the staging step.

Not implied. It is directly stated! Anytime the cards are revealed, regardless of what phase of the game you are in, you should resolve these keywords. Think of this as overruling the Core set's description of keywords as resolving only when revealed during staging or setup.

(1.01) states that the surge doomed and guarded keywords are resolved every time they are revealed. So as part of the surge and doomed resolution (based on the rulebook description), you check what phase you are in to see if it has any effect. So surge and doomed can resolve anytime, but they need to be revealed during setup or the staging step to have any effect. Similar to how you can resolve Evil Storm (Core 116) but is has no effect if none of the players have a threat of 35 or greater.

If there is a ruling or reminder text somewhere that surge and doomed are not checking what phase it is in in order to have an effect (because the only description I found was in the rulebook), can you point me to it?

Okay, I think I understand where the issue is coming from, and unfortunately, there is nothing I can provide you from the developers that will resolve the issue for you. The best I can do is to try to persuade you that "resolving" Surge and Doomed is defined in the rule book as such...

The rule book states (as you have already stated above):

If an encounter card with the doomed keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in setup, each player must raise his threat level by the specified value.

When an encounter card with the surge keyword is revealed during the staging step of the quest phase or in setup, reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck. Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card.

You are considering the "resolution" of the Doomed and Surge keywords to be the above descriptions in full. However, the best way to look at the above statements is that only the bold portions are considered "resolving" the Surge or Doomed keyword.

So when the FAQ clarifies Surge/Doomed/Guarded with the following...

Surge, Doomed, and Guarded keywords should be resolved any time the card on which they occur is revealed from the encounter deck, including during setup.

...it means, in the case of Doomed, you raise your threat by the specified value, and, in the case of Surge, you reveal 1 additional card from the encounter deck.

Since the FAQ clarifies that these effects can happen any time the card on which they occur is revealed, this means it will happen in any phase so long as the card is explicitly defined as "revealed".

Edited by cmabr002

Thanks. It just sucks to find something in the FAQ that expands the game in a way contrary to how you've been playing it. It effectively voids any win you have in the game and ruins any memories of triumph with the game.

It would be nice if there was a rules glossary style rules reference for Lord of the Rings like Fantasy Flight has for many of its other games. The current FAQ is just an unordered list of rulings.

Thanks. It just sucks to find something in the FAQ that expands the game in a way contrary to how you've been playing it. It effectively voids any win you have in the game and ruins any memories of triumph with the game.

It would be nice if there was a rules glossary style rules reference for Lord of the Rings like Fantasy Flight has for many of its other games. The current FAQ is just an unordered list of rulings.

It can certainly be difficult to keep track of things. I think most of us have played a certain rule wrong for some time before eventually finding out the developer's intent. It is unfortunate because it does feel like those wins are invalidated, but honestly, instead of viewing replaying those scenarios like a grind (if you feel you have to), try to think about it in terms of getting to revisit a previously played scenario.

Hopefully it doesn't sour your experience too much.

Eventually I learned to live with mistakes. Invariably I make at least one or two in a game, especially in newer quests as the board state can get quite complex. In the case of errata and other rulings, I used to feel that I needed to go back and replay a scenario if a ruling "invalidated" my prior win, but...

...it started to happen with enough frequency that I moved past it. I guess what I'm saying it, you get used to it.