I'm saying that there are ways to "win" in this setting that don't amount to self-elevation. Like I said, in the unquoted portion of my post, if your character gives his or her life in the service of the Empire, it's a victory. Neat, perfect, "happily ever after" endings are and should be rare in L5R.

A eat, perfect, "happily ever after" ending is something honor demands (obviously, as anything less would leave you with fear, regret, and/or desire). The fact that these endings are so rare is a clear indication that honor is indeed rather feeble in Rokugan. It isn't about self-elevation (as it would also invoke the Three Sins) but simply being infallible, incorruptible, and pretty much invincible all the time. You can say that everything else (like "dying for your Clan/the Empire" or sepukku) is just an excuse for failure and a way to justify weak honor so that people can call themselves samurai and not have Honor 10.0 (the level where true honor begins).

A eat, perfect, "happily ever after" ending is something honor demands (obviously, as anything less would leave you with fear, regret, and/or desire).

Uh....no.

An honorable death in service to your lord/the empire is the "good" ending for most Rokugani samurai.

See:The Seppuku of Matsu Domotai, the death of Ginawa/whatever name he took as a monk, the final moments of Shiba Aikune, Isawa Tadaka's death in KYD, and so on ad infinitum.

It is sort of the "Warrior Ideal" that Bushido teaches. Your life is, literally, your lord's to spend as they see fit. If you spend your life in an honorable pursuit, serving your lord's will and destroying their enemy, you have died as best as you can, and are thus rewarded in the afterlife.

A key element to the Fantasy of L5R is that that Bushido REALLY IS the way to get into Heaven. Samurai have no doubt about the rewards of a life lived honorably. It is just that the Code of Bushido is built to be intentionally impossible to follow all tenets at all time. There are several sections in several sourcebooks talking about that very problem. The Rokugani Honor system is designed to be impossible to follow 100%, in order to force imperfect people closer to perfection. It is similar to Enlightenment like that.

Which is why Shourido is such a dangerous philosophical heresy in Rokugani culture. It literally twists the ideals of Honor on their ear, and presents a path to power and victory that is not contradictory, but just as hard to follow 100%.

A eat, perfect, "happily ever after" ending is something honor demands (obviously, as anything less would leave you with fear, regret, and/or desire).

Uh....no.

An honorable death in service to your lord/the empire is the "good" ending for most Rokugani samurai.

This is the general perception of things and not the actual truth-as-is (this is a running theme in Rokugan). Said samurai also make a joke out of the virtue of Honesty all the time. You can say that dying for one's lord or the Empire is a good ending for most Rokugani samurai, but it isn't necessary true that it is a good ending according to the Bushido (and thus whether the death can be actually called 'honorable').

A key element to the Fantasy of L5R is that that Bushido REALLY IS the way to get into Heaven. Samurai have no doubt about the rewards of a life lived honorably. It is just that the Code of Bushido is built to be intentionally impossible to follow all tenets at all time. There are several sections in several sourcebooks talking about that very problem. The Rokugani Honor system is designed to be impossible to follow 100%, in order to force imperfect people closer to perfection. It is similar to Enlightenment like that.

This kinda ties back to my one-sentence description. The problem with Bushido is not that its tenets are conflicting (in essence, they don't) or that they are impossible to hold up universally (in essence, they aren't), but that it would fundamentally undermine everything your average Rokugani samurai holds dear (it would also turn your average L5R fic writer's life into a nightmare). That's unacceptable, so the setting bends the rules with stuff like the concept of 'Face' so that things can be "complicated". However, as Akodo himself stated in Leadership, bending Bushido is a straight path to disaster.

With respect, your arguments are becoming increasingly vague. Why would obeying Bushido fundamentally undermine everything your average Rokugani samurai holds dear? How does the setting bend its own rules? Exactly what is "complicated" about Face?

If by "What a Rokugani samurai holds dear", you mean their life, their family's lives, and their place in the social order? In the eyes of Bushido, those are all concerns of the person, not the samurai.

Bushido challenges a person to become, literally, superhuman. Personal concerns (food, love, happiness, revenge, family, etc) are all beneath the sublime perfection of Bushido. The idea of "On" or "Face" is literally a model of proper conduct designed to allow a human being to put aside being superhuman for a while. It gives them a place to be simply human, which has proven necessary, if weak.

As an example, a paragon of Bushido would, if ordered, cut down their own children if their Lord ordered it, provided the reasons for the order were just and honorable. And they would feel no regret about it.

In fact, it should be noted that Seppukku is not an act of regret. It is an act of loyalty, and when done properly and without shame, it is the ultimate fulfillment of your duty. Failing to be victorious is not inherently shameful, but allowing that failure to stain the honor of your Lord would be. It is not shameful to be killed in battle by a superior opponent, and if circumstances conspire that you do not die in battle but still lose? Seppukku serves as a corrective measure. Seppukku as punishment in crime is typically seen as a way to spare the shame of your action from spreading beyond yourself.

A key to understanding Bushido is that it embodies an utter sublimation of personal ownership. It is a truly feudal ideal where you own nothing, not even your own life. Your life is another's to spend however they see fit.

Why would obeying Bushido fundamentally undermine everything your average Rokugani samurai holds dear? How does the setting bend its own rules?

The answer to both is that the virtues of Bushido are a little bit falsely named. It goes down something like this (at least according to the quotes in the 4th edition core rulebook):

- Compassion is the closest to its name, but it is really about (super)heroism. It not only tells you that you must always be nice and do nice things, but if you can't do anything nice then you should pack up and find an opportunity. You gotta help them all, so to speak.

- Courage is more about freedom rather than actual courage. It is "live free and die hard" through-and-through. You mustn't shrink when facing an oni, but you also shouldn't give up just because your lord said so or because society disagrees with you.

- Courtesy is about humility, temperance, and respect. It isn't really about being polite, in fact, you are supposed to be rather blunt and straightforward with your dealings so that you don't waste precious time. In many ways, the Crab can be considered the true paragons of Courtesy. Also, both bragging and glory-hounding are totally dishonorable.

- Duty is about responsibility. You are responsible for the well-being of the people you serve and the people who serve you. Being responsible is far from being blindly loyal, in fact, it can lead a samurai to strange ways. Also, Duty is not a stand-alone virtue: while being responsible, you must be also compassionate, free of fear and personal concerns, humble, temperate, respectful, just, and righteous.

- Honesty is justice in its purest black-and-white form. An apple with the tiniest patch of rot is a rotten apple when it comes to Honesty. There are no grey areas, no shades of righteousness, only right in its most absolute form and wrong. With Compassion, Courage, and Duty, Honesty gives a pretty straightforward task to every samurai: what is right must be protected and maintained - what is wrong must be righted no matter what it is.

- Honor is righteousness and discipline. The samurai must be right all the time. If he ever, by some strange accident, goes astray, then he must fix his mistake(s) ASAP.

- Sincerity is about accountability and general reliability. You can't say one thing and do another, neither can you do something and then say that you did something else. Obviously, taking the flak instead of someone else (even your lord) is a direct violation of Sincerity... and your false accountability taints both yours and your Lord's honor.

Now, imagine your average L5R character acting according to these simple but rather tough guidelines... You could throw 90% of the setting's social conventions right out of the window because the character would just steamroll them without giving it a second thought. He would be, like, the walking nightmare of Rokugan: a guy who gives no f*ck and takes no sh*t, only gets the job done all the time. It would be Matsu Tsuko putting her blade right into the chest of Hantei XXIX without even blinking, it would be Isawa Tadaka never opening the Black Scrolls and personally killing his fellow Elemental Masters when they try to do so, it would be Ikoma Arimi throwing the wooden swords into her lord's face and leaving the castle with disgust written all over her face, and the Four Winds uniting behind Tsudao immediately after Toturi's death. It would neuter most of the dramatic themes and turn Rokugan into a storytelling nightmare where you can't have special snowflakes doing special snowflake-y stuff without someone hitting them with a katana and telling them to not do that.

This is why the setting bends the rules a little and includes stuff like people not upholding all the tenets universally and with equal fervor, or intentionally mishandling the virtues so that they start to conflict each other or do something simple and easy to follow through. This not only gives more breathing room to both the players and the writers/GMs, but also allows a more archetypical representation of the samurai that is easier to play and understand.

Everything related to Bushido and Honor is heavily tainted by our own perceptions and interpretations as players/GMs.

What I can say about AtoMaki's interpretation is there is a difference between an ideal and reality. Even the Rokugani know that human nature is basically flawed. Honor and Bushido are not natural, but man-made social norms to compensate for those flaws.

When the samurai are expected to act a certain way, it is implied that this is against their human nature, but for the improvement of all the society. Of course, not everyone is able to maintain such a perfect behavior all the time, and special ''punishments'' exist to punish the gravest offenders (seppuku, exile aka becoming a ronin, etc.).

There is also a heavy dose of propaganda in honor. The samurai caste proclaim they are better than the heimin because they follow bushido and must maintain the facade just enough to back their claim, but at its very core, it's a mean to control the population.

That being said, since this ideal is almost impossible to achieve, deviation from the norm is expected and accepted, up to a point. Gameplay-wise, as long as someone is able to maintain a reasonable honor rank, he is considered honorable, even though his human nature still creeps in and makes him do socially unnacceptable things.

Even the Rokugani know that human nature is basically flawed.

This is a pretty weak excuse, if you ask me. The whole point of Bushido is to rise above one's flaws and thus become "more than human". If you are not up to take this path, then it is your problem. Not everyone is fit to be a samurai, you can keep your flaws and live a good life as a simple commoner.

Everything related to Bushido and Honor is heavily tainted by our own perceptions and interpretations as players/GMs.

I cannot agree more with this. First of all, we can all understand the concept of the Bushido, but after that, it really depends on our perceptions and interpretations. I cannot speak for others, but I do know that I'm not following the Bushido, therefore, it may be hard for me to judge at what point the act is a contradiction to the code. But then again, the Bushido in L5R is based on Japan's Bushido but not exactly the same, there's some few differences, not big, but just enough to be able to see some.

However, one thing that is sure, the character is following it, we can assume that most of the time, the character will want to follow it. Sure there's time where the player may act against the character, but we have to allow some "grey zone" for that kind of transition between the player and the character.

Bottom line, I just want to have fun and I'm not in position to judge if the Bushido in L5R is flawed or not, because I'm not part of Rokugan. So, I think that some parts shouldn't be taken at his first level, since most of L5R is strong on the second or even the third level of meaning.

I think sndwurks and Tetsuhiko hit the nail on the head.

Bushido is an ideal. It's something to strive for but that, in reality, can't always be achieved. Not everyone can be a paragon, all of the time. Heck, even a paragon can't be a paragon of every virtue. But as samurai, you're expected to make an effort.

Samurai do follow Bushido. However, they do so within the confines of being people. People make mistakes. They have moments of weakness. They end up in nuanced situations where sometimes, they simply cannot live up to the ideal. Many great samurai dramas have been about making a choice when either path would be an honorable (or, in some way, a dishonorable) one. Take a look at the tenant of Duty. A samurai must be prepared to accept dishonor and shame in the name of Duty. In other words, its built right into the Code that sometimes, you'll have to do things that aren't the embodiment of all Bushido's aspects. But a samurai weighs actions and expectations against their own honor and decides which actions are the right ones.

Most honor/moral codes in real world history have been the same way. They tell you how, ideally, you should live your life. And if you can embody even a fraction of it, great. You'll often be remembered as someone who was incredibly virtuous. If you do something that goes against following the code, you should get back to following it ASAP. And when reality puts you into a position where there's no good/right choice, you must weigh the tenants of the code against one another and take the action that you deem right.

A samurai must be prepared to accept dishonor and shame in the name of Duty.

I don't think that a samurai is supposed to feel shame let alone accept it. If you are shamed then you feel regret, so you are in the wrong and messed up something. If you follow Bushido then you can't be in the wrong, and consequently, you can't be ashamed. Others may insist that you should feel ashamed, but that is their problem and not yours. Same thing goes with dishonor.

Samurai drama happens when people don't follow the Bushido or try to work their ways around it because following it would be hard. Obviously, this can't end well, but it isn't the fault of the Bushido but the people (not) following it.

And when reality puts you into a position where there's no good/right choice, you must weigh the tenants of the code against one another and take the action that you deem right.

There is always a right choice. It might be very-very hard, inconvenient, or conflict your personal ideas, but life is not easy, Samurai-sama.

That's the sort of shame I'm talking about- societal shame. And you're right- a proper samurai won't let it get to them. They will know they did right no matter what others say/think.

As for samurai drama, you're right here too. We both are. Take a look at the old 1e Code of Bushido adventures. The entire point of these was to put honorable samurai in a position where they face an ethical dilemma. In the first instance, there are two groups, both of which have followed (and expected others to follow) the Code of Bushido. Technically, siding with either would be right. But, it'd also result in the other side being found in the wrong. And a decision must be made. What do the samurai do?

In the first instance, there are two groups, both of which have followed (and expected others to follow) the Code of Bushido. Technically, siding with either would be right. But, it'd also result in the other side being found in the wrong. And a decision must be made. What do the samurai do?

In this case, both sides are wrong (as they both can be found in the wrong, meaning that they are indeed wrong), and they probably wouldn't survive a closer inspection from a truly honorable samurai.

Because someone that's in the right can never be perceived by others as being in the wrong? O_o Being found in the wrong and actually being wrong are two very different things.

Whichever side the PCs don't support is in position to take a damaging loss of face, despite the fact that they followed Bushido. And thus, the PCs are put into a position where they must side against one of the two parties, despite both being honorable.

Problems of morality don't always have an easy answer, even for the most honorable of samurai. It's not a math problem- it's a complex ethical code. A code that actually acknowledges that its tenants can and will come into conflict with one another.

Because someone that's in the right can never be perceived by others as being in the wrong? O_o

No, at least when it comes to Bushido, they can't be. They are either right or wrong. It should be a very convoluted scenario if a person in the right can be perceived as wrong by someone who knows exactly what is right.

Whichever side the PCs don't support is in position to take a damaging loss of face, despite the fact that they followed Bushido.

In this case, whoever initiates the loss of face is in the wrong and not them. And if they really follow Bushido, then they will just sh*t all over a petty "loss of face" anyway.

Let's be clear. In L5R, Bushido and honor are fictional code of conducts inspired by the way of life of an ancient Japanese warrior caste which was greatly exaggerated by the Japanese governement during WWII in order to increase the support of the population towards the war effort.

There is no clear cut answer when it comes to these concepts. Our personal interpretation greatly influence how we analyze these elements and none of them is inherently bad. This is a fictional universe and while I totally enjoy such discussion, an argument that can be summarized as: ''This is how it works'' is flawed because there is no definitive answer.''

Give us in-universe examples and justifications rather than forcing your own point of view. For example, ''we can define Duty like this because this samurai which was a paragon of Duty acted that way'' is a reasonable explanation.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but in its current state, your argument is defined by your opinion and, unless proven otherwise, has no basis in facts.

Give us in-universe examples and justifications rather than forcing your own point of view. For example, ''we can define Duty like this because this samurai which was a paragon of Duty acted that way'' is a reasonable explanation.

My whole point is that in-universe examples are meaningless because literally nobody follows Bushido as they are supposed to, but make up all sorts of excuses and exceptions for the sake of convenience. The closest call is Tsudao, and her story is full with her steamrolling people out of her own well-defined sense of righteousness. Hell, the Shadowed Throne alternate setting straight-out tells us that Tsudao would have crushed down hard on the underbelly of the samurai caste, and Naseru had to forge a second Gozoku Conspiracy to avoid this.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but in its current state, your argument is defined by your opinion and, unless proven otherwise, has no basis in facts.

Read the quotes from Leadership in the 4th Edition Core Rulebook. Everything I said is written down right there. And those quotes are all what Akodo said about the various tenets. The text under the quotes are the way the Rokugani samurai perceive those tenets.

Given that many characters have been label paragons of Bushido over the course of the game's history, could the issue be less Bushido and more your interpretation of it? The people that developed the code (the L5R Code of Bushido is somewhat different from the real world version)/otherwise crafted the setting have stated certain characters are good examples of honorable, Bushido-following samurai. You say there aren't any. Perhaps the issue is you've gone in looking for something that never existed. You're welcome to have your own take on Bushido. But it looks to me like your interpretation of it is different from the interpretation we've been offered in the books.

As for Leadership, it does contain those quotes. It also contains sections on when/how you should use deception during war... despite the fact that being deceptive is dishonorable. Leadership isn't an essay on following Bushido. It's an essay on when/how to conduct successful, civilized warfare. Also, while Akodo One-Eye did write some about the morals in/around war, he also deliberately left half the text blank to be filled in when "new truths are revealed". He understood that he couldn't account for every dilemma, whether moral or tactical, that samurai would face.

There's a reason that, after those quotes in the core book, there are paragraphs further detailing how samurai adhere to these virtues/how the virtues can conflict with one another. You can't have an entire code in a handful of sentences and then live by it perfectly. The world is too complicated for that. The descriptions go on to talk about nuance and to establish that there are different ways to follow Bushido. Some clans place greater emphasis on one tenant, some another. The Lion emphasizing courage and the Phoenix emphasizing compassion are both being honorable, even if their actions are sometimes, not just different, but contradictory.

Bushido is a set of goals that samurai strive for. It's impossible to embody all of them, perfectly, all the time. As you've suggested, someone attempting to do that would be awful. If not awful, they'd be forced to do nothing at all because the first time they encountered a moral dilemma they'd be left spending eternity parsing out the honorable path... an act that in and of itself is dishonorable since samurai should simply know the right path and take decisive action.

Give us in-universe examples and justifications rather than forcing your own point of view. For example, ''we can define Duty like this because this samurai which was a paragon of Duty acted that way'' is a reasonable explanation.

My whole point is that in-universe examples are meaningless because literally nobody follows Bushido as they are supposed to

I'll be honest AtoMaki, I stopped there. Who are you to judge that characters in-universe don't follow the Bushido as they are supposed to? I mean, sure stories may seems otherwise but it doesn't tell everything. By everything, I mean the every meaning of each personal action with reasons as proof they followed the Bushido. It would be painful to read and very boring because it would be 60 to 80% of the story. I'm pretty sure even the storyteam would hate writing that...

-- Start of the edit part:

I'll add up at some point, if we're able to find that the Bushido is that flawed, I'm pretty sure that wants to be the most honorable would probably commit Seppuku right after their Gempukku because they would say that they don't want to do anything that would go against the Bushido. Specially since it's around for over a millenium. Sure, according to the mentality, they wouldn't dare to go against the Kami, but if the Akodo family got disbanded, I'm pretty sure it could be altered.

Another point that I would like to add up, it's said that the only Akodo's Leadership unedited copy owned by the Ikoma, this kinda relates the fact that some information may be altered in order to control or manipulate some actions in someone's favor, which is common tricks that has been done in several religions in our own world. That's why I prefer to have some "grey zone" instead of going all black and white.

End of the edit part ---

It's your opinion, fine, nothing's wrong with that, but at some point, you should try to accept other's opinion and point of view about that topic. Speaking of the topic, that discussion is way off-topic now...

I would like to note, simply, that in Rokugan, Honor and Bushido are most distinctly NOT man made societal norms.

They are DIVINE societal morals, imposed upon the humans found in Rokugan by the Kami who fell from Tengoku. Bushido should be impossible for a human being to follow at all times, as human beings are not gods and this is a code for gods to follow.

Haha, yeah, I got a little carried away .

But Crawd, you actually pointed out the two things I think are responsible for the difference between the "truth" and the "reality" in regards of Bushido: writing truly honorable characters (especially conflicts involving these characters!) would be an absolute nightmare for your average L5R writer, and, of course, Bushido did not exactly survive the currents of history without being exploited and abused.

At this point I believe any further debate on the nature of Bushido and honor in Rokugan is best served by a new thread. Nothing in the last two pages has anything to do with the concept of a rebooted L5R setting.

At this point I believe any further debate on the nature of Bushido and honor in Rokugan is best served by a new thread. Nothing in the last two pages has anything to do with the concept of a rebooted L5R setting.

Okay, to fix this issue, I'm gonna say this: if Rokugan gets the reboot, I would like to see my interpretation as canon reality and as the official standard Honor is measured. So samurai would be really this (super)heroic, righteous people who uphold a superhuman code of morality. And how would they do that as mere humans? Well, I would say that following a superhuman code actually turns the samurai into superhuman beings in the same vein as the Book of Void mentioned the possibility of this through Mushin/Zanshin/Shoshin/Gaman.

Mechanically this would manifest in "Honor Mastery Abilities": most characters would start at Honor 1.0 (roughly equivalent to the current 5.0-6.9 level), gaining small bonuses for their token effort to follow Bushido properly (this would be the level for the usual "resist Fear/Temptation better" and similar bonuses); when you reach Honor 3.0, you are considered to have "Strong Honor" (8.0-9.0 level) and receive modest bonuses like a few extra Void Points; get to Honor 5.0 to say that you have "True Honor" (10.0 in the current system) and gain some really sweet stuff like to spend a Void Point to turn any roll into a Honor roll - this also heralds the end of worrying about mundane opponents; the ranks actually continue up to Honor 10.0 (this would be the new "literally impossible" level, with a note that even Akodo only managed to reach Honor 9.9) - when you reach Honor 7.0, you can go face-to-face with a real oni, and at Honor 9.0 you are pretty much unstoppable and can challenge oni lords, fortunes, and their likes.

Now, this would put "Honor is stronger than steel" really on the radar !

So basically, you'd prefer to see the protagonists of the story as something beyond human comprehension.

Magic tried that for quite some time, found that it sucked, and performed an in-universe reboot to fix the problem. No, I do not see FFG going this route. Fantasy is only good when it speaks to our shared human experiences. There's a reason few novels feature no human characters.