I'd like to see japanese terms used properly, like gozoku for example.

I'd like to see the clans developed in deep around their traditions and territories and not around one or two archetypes like the shinobi-Bayushi, the berserk-Hida, the author's-waifu-utaku ecc.

I'd like to see a better representation of Merenae and Tharane in order to better include them as visitors or enemies, like it was done for Yobanjin; I don't need a school for them, just advises to play them as PC or NPC.

It is not need that everything have a school, but everything need a good description.

I'd like to see Shirabyoshi.

Seppuku wasn't the sole punishment for a samurai, there was also the loss of the family name for example.

[Oh, yeah, I'd like to see resolved the "problems" with the matriarchal clans, exspecialy the Utaku, I still don't know how the Utaku females convince the nomads to marry them (buy they the boys?) and what are the rules for males, they can't attend to other schools, I don't think the clan let them leave their family via marriage either]

That's kinda how it was in Rokugani history. Shugenja were still samurai, but since they were the clergy, they weren't allowed to serve as warriors on the battlefield. Healing only.

I would push it further. No daisho, no bushido, no nothing for the Shugenja. They wouldn't be Samurai proper. They would still have "Honor", measuring their piety, but that's all.

One thing I would like to see in a reboot is to finally separate the shugenja from the samurai caste. They are clergy through-and-through, and I'm not exactly sure what is the logic behind them being samurai.

Hmmm.

I think you're confusing terms.... Samurai doesn't mean one is a warrior. It just means the individual is a noble. Artisans, Priests, Actors, and yes Warriors can all be samurai. The thing here is that Priests are known as Shugenja, and Warriors are known as Bushi.

But they're all noblemen (and women) and therefore they are all Samurai

I mean, Shugenja shouldn't be considered as a 'noble' but as an out-of-the-system part of the greater society like the monks. So there would be like three PC "social castes": Samurai (Bushi/Courtier/Artisan), Clergy (Shugenja/Monk), and Ninja.

But mechanically, there's no sense in doing so.

Thematically, there's also no support for it (go back to the game's mythos for the in-game origin of the term - and heck, even the real-world origin - and you'll see what I mean).

Out of Game, it'd be alienating a large portion of your playerbase, so there's little incentive for it either (just look at how many people pick the Monk route instead of the Samurai. Heck, look at the Clan/Ronin samurai picks in any group's demographic. We're naturally shy of anything that translates to "you're at the bottom of the social pyramid" )

That's kinda how it was in Rokugani history. Shugenja were still samurai, but since they were the clergy, they weren't allowed to serve as warriors on the battlefield. Healing only.

I would push it further. No daisho, no bushido, no nothing for the Shugenja. They wouldn't be Samurai proper. They would still have "Honor", measuring their piety, but that's all.

Err.

They don't have a katana - a mark of a warrior - but they have a wakizashi - a symbol of being samurai and the tool with which they preserve their Honor. And Honor =/= Piety.

Bushido is something even Monks follow. It's a staple of the game, a cornerstone of it. Heck, even Ronin follow it. The non-adherence to Bushido is what caused so many clashes and distaste between a large portion of the playerbase, and the Spider (just mentioning it to illustrate my point, I DON'T want to start a bushido/shourido discussion here >_< )

I wouldn't go so far as to say monks follow Bushido. Some of them, sure. You're more warrior-monks may very well do so. But with most monks, their take on several of the virtues, especially compassion, is very, very different from how Bushido describes compassion. It's why its the monks, or those rarer samurai that lean towards pacifism, that are out there giving food to starving peasants and teaching them about the Tao. It's why monks are given leeway to contradict samurai without having to worry about duels. Bushido interprets each of its moral tenants in a very specific way, different from a more general understanding of said virtues.

Bushido is the way of the warrior. Part of the joy of retirement and becoming a monk is not being constantly bound by its rigorous tenants. Sure, it's still a good idea to be courteous, compassionate, etc... but that's different from following Bushido.

That said, I'd agree with the rest of what Karyudo had to say above.

Thematically, there's also no support for it

That's why we have a reboot .

Otherwise, the Shugenja (and the Monks) supposedly adhere to the Shintao exclusively, because that's the way they attain the spiritual harmony they absolutely require to do Shugenja stuff. I'm not exactly sure how you can add Bushido to the mix considering that the guy who invented Bushido in-setting specifically admitted that following the Bushido or the Shintao are mutually exclusive. It just kinda' goes back to how the Shugenja should be priests and not samurai who throw fireballs instead of swinging katanas (and by doing so, they totally overshadow the katana-swinging samurai even though I guess players play L5R for the katana-swinging and not for the fireball throwing).

And Honor =/= Piety.

I mean, for mechanical effects, they would still have "Honor" in roughly the same 0.0-10.0 system, but it would represent their adherence to the Shintao and not to the Bushido.

Thematically, there's also no support for it

That's why we have a reboot .

You wouldn't need a reboot. You would need a rewrite of the founding mythos of the game, and all the stories derived from it, as well as all the background info (and I mean those that we got in 1ed, before 20 years of stories). In short, it'd be a different game, sharing only the nomenclature.

Thematically, there's also no support for it

That's why we have a reboot .

But there will have no reboot, I'm pretty sure about that, so I feel like this whole discussion is for nothing.

Here's my reason that I'm pretty sure (about 80% sure):

According to FFG, in their L5R product page ( https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-card-game/ ):

We love the vibrant narrative and enthralling universe associated with Legend of the Five Rings, and we want to see those aspects continue for another twenty years, bringing in new generations of fans to join veteran players.

[...]Throughout the development of the LCG, our developers will ensure that the game maintains its connection to Rokugan and the Colonies, as well as the game’s pervasive themes of honor, nobility, magic, intrigue, duty, and warfare.[...]

These two quotes kinda tells that they will not change that much to what has been done in the past. Of course, that's an hypothesis but the wording kinda suggests there will have little to no changes to the universe, the only change will be the game.

You would need a rewrite of the founding mythos of the game, and all the stories derived from it, as well as all the background info (and I mean those that we got in 1ed, before 20 years of stories).

Yup. This is called a reboot. Also, jokes on you, I would rewrite the whole game from the basics and present a Rokugan vastly different from the one we know .

Thematically, there's also no support for it

That's why we have a reboot .

But there will have no reboot, I'm pretty sure about that, so I feel like this whole discussion is for nothing.

Here's my reason that I'm pretty sure (about 80% sure):

Well, I'm with FFG since quite a lot of years, playing their 40k RPG, and I can tell you, these guys change their minds quickly. With those quotes, I would give a 30-40% chance for a reboot, though personally, I give it a 50%. But alas, this topic assumes that there is a reboot so there is no reason to argue whether it will happen or not.

Well, I'm with FFG since quite a lot of years, playing their 40k RPG, and I can tell you, these guys change their minds quickly. With those quotes, I would give a 30-40% chance for a reboot, though personally, I give it a 50%. But alas, this topic assumes that there is a reboot so there is no reason to argue whether it will happen or not.

To have played Warhammer Fantasy Battle for a long time, it's Games-Workshop that changes their mind quickly. They are still the owners of the IP they just gave the license to publish the RPG element to FFG, which was at Black Industries before they closed. But the storyteam at GWS is a very undecisive team, one day, they say something and the other they changed it entirely. It's not for nothing that Warhammer Fantasy is dead today and they created the Age of Sigmar. Which is an entirely different situation with L5R, because FFG bought the entire IP, so they have controle on everything, unlike with Warhammer 40k.

However, you say: "But alas, this topic assumes that there is a reboot so there is no reason to argue whether it will happen or not." but yet, in the quote I've picked in my previous message, it sounded like it was done, yet, signs aren't pointing that way.

The only real question I can see about the RPG is: Will their be an RPG? So far, no sign about it from FFG. Why am I bringing this? Simply because a reboot brings almost nothing to the card game. If FFG has no intention to have the RPG in a near future, I don't even think they will bother to reboot it at all, it's mostly a waste of resources from the business point of view.

I'm sorry, but the argument "there is too much history for new players, the game should be rebooted" is just silly.

It's akin to saying that Star Wars should be rebooted, because there are 40 years of stories and movies and it's too much for the new kids to learn of.

You ever notice that Star Wars is a very, very big place and that all new story arcs in Star Wars always start off on some semi-isolated rim planet of the galaxy that has been relatively untouched by any of the historical events and the characters you follow get introduced to stuff from the old stories as though it were new to them?

In fact, in any setting with massive history that doesn't involve "everything has been more or less calm for ages and the protagonist here is generally understandably unaware of the details of any of the conflicts he or she has heard of."

You want to explain how you do that with L5R?

Again, I issue the challenge-- explain in less than 5 sentences everything a starting player would need to know about the world so that they could avoid doing something absolutely massive out of character or something their character would have previously been told specifically not to do. Enough so that they wouldn't instantly be considered some sort of mentally-handicapped socially-inept liability who has somehow been oblivious to everything that has been happening around them since they were born.

Can you do that? Because that is what is absolutely required if you are going to ask someone to step into an active role in and engage with the world you have created as anything more than a passive participant.

It is one thing to flash a movie in front of someone or even have them follow someone in the novel and the viewer/reader has no impact on the events unfolding and everyone can act as they should without fully informing the reader of the reasons why-- although people tend to not like books where the protagonist is undecipherable and motives are not clearly laid out. It is a totally different thing to drop someone into a fully developed world with an extraordinarily thick history of screwing up any sort of status quo and having resulting gone through massive paradigm shift after massive paradigm shift... and expect them to act like a person who has lived in this world their whole lives when they have only a handful of minutes-- whatever hook you used to try to drag them in-- to try to familiarize themselves with the world.

Now, granted, there would be another way to do this other than to restart from the beginning.

That would be to do a 200-500 year time jump to the point that there has been a new status quo for a long, long time, the worst of the elements introduced into the world have been gone for a long time, all of the ultra powerful supernatural elements that had become daily occurrences have gone away and been forgotten, no previous characters survive, the clans have all had time to replenish their numbers, there haven't been any world-destroying dark forces sweeping through once an average of 5 years destroying everything in their wake for a long, long time and a lot of that has faded away into myth and legend and there is no need for the brand team to come up with something even more powerful and overwhelming than the last time just to get players excited...

Then all of the impenetrable crap gets moved into the "doesn't actually matter in any way to the daily lives of anyone alive any longer" category and thus-- you would still have a perfectly fair fresh start without offending anyone by marking the terrible, terrible directions the game had been taken in as "non-canon".

The thing is, though, no matter how far ahead you jump in the timeline, there is a deliberate values dissonance between the characters in L5R and its primarily-Western audience. The mores and beliefs of those who live in Rokugan inform every facet of their day-to-day activities, and it is an important part of what makes the game and its setting unique. You can't explain these in less than five sentences, as they take up many pages' worth of exposition in the 4th Edition rulebook.

Well, with some cynicism, I can distill Legend of the Five Rings into a single sentence:

It is about a magical empire of over-romanticized narcissistic quasi-fantasy samurai engaging in edgy oriental soap opera drama while serving one of the many thematically differentiated factions of their empire.

If you take this to heart then I'm pretty sure that you can't go wrong with characterization. The only character who might deserve a little more explanation is Akodo Toturi because he doesn't really fit into any part of the sentence.

Well, with some cynicism, I can distill Legend of the Five Ring into a single sentence:

It is about a magical empire of over-romanticized narcissistic quasi-fantasy samurai engaging in edgy oriental soap opera drama while serving one of the many thematically differentiated factions of their empire.

If you take this heart then I'm pretty sure that you can't go wrong with characterization. The only character who might deserve a little more explanation is Akodo Toturi because he doesn't really fit into any part of the sentence.

That's incredibly cynical. I'm surprised you can enjoy L5R if you really feel that way about it.

Well, with some cynicism, I can distill Legend of the Five Ring into a single sentence:

It is about a magical empire of over-romanticized narcissistic quasi-fantasy samurai engaging in edgy oriental soap opera drama while serving one of the many thematically differentiated factions of their empire.

If you take this heart then I'm pretty sure that you can't go wrong with characterization. The only character who might deserve a little more explanation is Akodo Toturi because he doesn't really fit into any part of the sentence.

That's incredibly cynical.

It is, but it is also true if you think about it . Whether it is actually enjoyable is up to the GM. 'Rokugan your way' and stuff.

If this: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/5/13/battle-of-the-trident/ is any indication it looks like that FFG will keep up the L5R tradion of having tournament wins shape the future expansions.

I'm sorry, but the argument "there is too much history for new players, the game should be rebooted" is just silly.

It's akin to saying that Star Wars should be rebooted, because there are 40 years of stories and movies and it's too much for the new kids to learn of.

You ever notice that Star Wars is a very, very big place and that all new story arcs in Star Wars always start off on some semi-isolated rim planet of the galaxy that has been relatively untouched by any of the historical events and the characters you follow get introduced to stuff from the old stories as though it were new to them?

And yet all of the same core elements remain unchanged: Jedi, Sith, Empire/Republic conflict, crime and smuggling, space battles. Same for the mythos regarding the Force - you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who has seen any of the films that doesn't know what it is.

In short, you're trying to sell an expansion of the universe as a rewrite. Sorry, but no - you're just wrong.

Again, I issue the challenge-- explain in less than 5 sentences everything a starting player would need to know about the world so that they could avoid doing something absolutely massive out of character or something their character would have previously been told specifically not to do. Enough so that they wouldn't instantly be considered some sort of mentally-handicapped socially-inept liability who has somehow been oblivious to everything that has been happening around them since they were born.

Ooh a challenge. Let me see....

1) In an Oriental setting, based on Eastern mythology (that you can easily learn of on Wikipedia), you have the empire of Rokugan where multiple clans (each with their distinctive theme) wage military and political wars for supremacy and influence over the Throne being held by the Imperial Families.

2) In Rokugan, much like in other Eastern-based games, politeness is more vital than strength of arms, as a wrong word can kill you more quickly than a blade to your gut - so when in doubt, always err on the side of caution and over-politeness.... even when facing an enemy or someone you hate.

3) Spirits (known as 'kami') and the supernatural aren't just myths... they're a real part of everyone's lives, so act accordingly and respect the clergy - after all, you never know if a priest knows how to ask the kami of fire to light your butt ablaze.

4) Generally speaking, everyone's a samurai, but that just means they're noble - bushi are warriors, carry two swords, and serve their lords mostly in a martial fashion; shugenja are the priests and spellcasters, carry only the wakizashi (as it symbolizes a samurai's honor) and serve in more mystical roles; courtiers are the politicians, and they too carry only the wakizashi, serving their lords in the various courts of the Empire.

5) "Honor is stronger than steel" is the motto of the game - therefore remember that, while some clans and stereotypes may despise and sacrifice it in name of a greater cause, they tend to suffer for it... while those that adhere to the concept can gain much.

(as a Scorpion, writing that #5 made me feel dirty... but hey, it's true )

Now, does this describe the whole setting? Of course not! But then again, you can't describe any setting in detail with just 5 sentences - just paint it in broad strokes. With that in mind, it's a pretty easy challenge to fulfill - but thanks anyway

(as a Scorpion, writing that #5 made me feel dirty... but hey, it's true )

As a Scorpion, you as much as anyone probably realize how much sh*t your clan has to go through to serve its assigned role in the Empire.

(as a Scorpion, writing that #5 made me feel dirty... but hey, it's true )

As a Scorpion, you as much as anyone probably realize how much sh*t your clan has to go through to serve its assigned role in the Empire.

Honor is a weapon. Like all weapons it can be turned against it's user.

I mean, you couldn't make your oponent loose by dishonor if there was no honor right?

Unless you're Spider like me and don't care...

If you're truly honorable, if you have no dirty secrets to hide, the Scorpion has only their own lies and treachery to fall back on. But only one in a thousand has that kind of unimpeachable honor (according to the RPG rulebook).

2) In Rokugan, much like in other Eastern-based games, politeness is more vital than strength of arms, as a wrong word can kill you more quickly than a blade to your gut - so when in doubt, always err on the side of caution and over-politeness.... even when facing an enemy or someone you hate.

This is only true for two Great Clans (with a third only abusing it) and maybe the Imperials.

5) "Honor is stronger than steel" is the motto of the game - therefore remember that, while some clans and stereotypes may despise and sacrifice it in name of a greater cause, they tend to suffer for it... while those that adhere to the concept can gain much.

In all of 20 years of L5R, there was a single character (Toturi Tsudao) who could actually do the bolded part... and in the end, she died because of it.

5) "Honor is stronger than steel" is the motto of the game - therefore remember that, while some clans and stereotypes may despise and sacrifice it in name of a greater cause, they tend to suffer for it... while those that adhere to the concept can gain much.

In all of 20 years of L5R, there was a single character (Toturi Tsudao) who could actually do the bolded part... and in the end, she died because of it.

That really depends on how you define the bolded part. Gain for a samurai in Rokugan is not the same as for us, and honor is not about profiting yourself, but about representing with dignity the countless generations that have come before you. Dying for the honor of one's clan is the most cherished act a samurai can perform, hence the popularity of seppuku in the setting. The reason the Dark Virtues are so reviled is not because they are necessarily bad - indeed, they undoubtedly strengthen those who practice them - but because they contradict the samurai lifestyle, which is about servitude, to one's lord and clan, to the Emperor, and to the lower castes (which incidentally is the main reason I am also proud to be a Unicorn). A true samurai does not seek to "gain much" for oneself.

5) "Honor is stronger than steel" is the motto of the game - therefore remember that, while some clans and stereotypes may despise and sacrifice it in name of a greater cause, they tend to suffer for it... while those that adhere to the concept can gain much.

In all of 20 years of L5R, there was a single character (Toturi Tsudao) who could actually do the bolded part... and in the end, she died because of it.

That really depends on how you define the bolded part.

Well, I would say that being freed from the Three Sins is a good start. Living a life with absolutely no regrets automatically rule out 99% of the characters in L5R, especially those who committed sepukku (other than a few exception cases, sepukku is all about regret).

I'm sorry, but the argument "there is too much history for new players, the game should be rebooted" is just silly.

It's akin to saying that Star Wars should be rebooted, because there are 40 years of stories and movies and it's too much for the new kids to learn of.

You ever notice that Star Wars is a very, very big place and that all new story arcs in Star Wars always start off on some semi-isolated rim planet of the galaxy that has been relatively untouched by any of the historical events and the characters you follow get introduced to stuff from the old stories as though it were new to them?

And yet all of the same core elements remain unchanged: Jedi, Sith, Empire/Republic conflict, crime and smuggling, space battles. Same for the mythos regarding the Force - you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who has seen any of the films that doesn't know what it is.

In short, you're trying to sell an expansion of the universe as a rewrite. Sorry, but no - you're just wrong.

You could also have picked the last movie as a reference. Yes, it's possible to see the last movie without seeing the others and enjoy it, but there's a lot of reference on the episode 4-5-6 in it, that we can say that some of the "new stuffs" may be easier to understand by digging in the historical events, specially in the last movie. It may be hard for someone to understand the quote of Han Solo saying: "Chewie we're home" for example.

In the end, yes they "start up" in a semi-isolated rim planet, but isn't that how every RPG campaign starts? Allowing a new player to start up as rank 0 or 1. And yes, if I would have a group of full new player, the idea of starting at rank 0 is a great idea, allowing them to learn the basic while they are playing, since they are in training and learning process. It's difficult for a new player if the Storyteller doesn't give him tools to understand or gives him too much information that isn't revelent for the time. I don't think that a new player needs to know the whole story to be able to play, for say, in the Four Wind era, just a small recap of the last era and the few great events on the last 5 years is more than enough.

Another way to make new player understand the setting, starts the campaign with a Topaz Championship. With all the events in it, it's easily understandable for them that a Samurai isn't just about fighting. With the addition of a spiritual intrigue, allowing to understand the Shugenja side, it's a great start to understand without having to have to dig deep.

A reboot, for me, is a waste of resource that will, after a while, end up the same. And it is a huge loss for the RPG side, because you're removing a lot of story hooks to start over, with just a bland setting with very few events. As a Storyteller, I will admit that I like to have a story that big, because I can pick an era that I'm interested to create my campaign. Am I saying that the story is perfect, of course not. There's a few things that are simply stupid but, hey, even in our life, there's stupid decisions, so who are we to judge?

I prefer to alter my games, than having no story at all. Some numbers doesn't make sens, for example, the population of each Clans, but that was done in the 3rd edition and in the 3rd edition, they tend to give stats for everything. If they didn't give this numbers, things wouldn't be that strange, because I would have seen it like the Three Kingdom War that started in 184 and ended 280 in China where it's estimated to have 36 to 40 millions of deaths, which is a lot. But nope, they threw out numbers that makes more or less sense for the story, I basically ignore these numbers and move ahead.

5) "Honor is stronger than steel" is the motto of the game - therefore remember that, while some clans and stereotypes may despise and sacrifice it in name of a greater cause, they tend to suffer for it... while those that adhere to the concept can gain much.

In all of 20 years of L5R, there was a single character (Toturi Tsudao) who could actually do the bolded part... and in the end, she died because of it.

That really depends on how you define the bolded part.

Well, I would say that being freed from the Three Sins is a good start. Living a life with absolutely no regrets automatically rule out 99% of the characters in L5R, especially those who committed sepukku (other than a few exception cases, sepukku is all about regret).

5) "Honor is stronger than steel" is the motto of the game - therefore remember that, while some clans and stereotypes may despise and sacrifice it in name of a greater cause, they tend to suffer for it... while those that adhere to the concept can gain much.

In all of 20 years of L5R, there was a single character (Toturi Tsudao) who could actually do the bolded part... and in the end, she died because of it.

That really depends on how you define the bolded part.

Well, I would say that being freed from the Three Sins is a good start. Living a life with absolutely no regrets automatically rule out 99% of the characters in L5R, especially those who committed sepukku (other than a few exception cases, sepukku is all about regret).