It looks like L5R might be restarted, which is probably a good thing. It has been a fun ride having tournament outcomes decide everything, but many tournament wins have kind of prevented a lot of future options being viable. The timeline has gotten a little overcomplicated... so... maybe moving to a new AU Rokugan is a good thing.

A few changes I would make to the overall theme of the game....

First, muskets and arbequises should exist. It was the Europeans who said 'this weapon is below us' not the Japanese or Chinese. Banning firearms and banning peasants from having weapons only happened in Japan during a 200 year period of peace when Samurai more or less became wandering hobos who spent most of their time eating, partying and with prostitutes. Imposing the Tokugawa dynasty rules on a land that actually has monsters and existential threats and is still warring doesn't make sense. It kind of implies that one thinks Japanese are Klingons or something. Actually, scratch that, even Klingons use guns. So worse than parody Klingons.

That being said, they also shouldn't be the answer to everything. It would be fair to say that firearms technology is in its 1300s to 1500s state. It basically requires one to be stationary, dry and has a functionally long reload time. It has worse range and fire rate than a bow. And since one is likely to die whether you stick a wooden shaft or a stone through them, it is really only good for countering heavily armored troops coming at you. Mechanically in the RPG it could be an unattractive option because you have to be stationary and the long reload time-- you might get one good shot off and then you are effectively unarmed, in the CCG it could be a ranged attack only usable for defense without the right terrain card or action in play.

Swords should not be the master weapon that are so superior to every other and everyone is automatically trained in that it seems like a character flaw to use any other weapon. Swords should not be worshipped, it shouldn't be the end of the world when one gets broken unless it was a particularly important artifact past on from generations ago. Mechanically swords should be properly balanced and have their place as an easily carried weapons good for close-quarters fighting. They are the weapon one is going to be able to rely on when they weren't expecting to be ambushed on a city street or in their own quarters. When one is properly prepared for battle, perhaps another weapon is more favorable depending on how one fights and what one wants to accomplish. Opening up more functional weapon options should allow characters to be better distinguished from one another rather than ever having anything but a sword being an odd quirk of the Mantis clan alone.

Similarly, it should not be considered a death sentence for anyone but a samurai to have a sword. Monsters are real in this world and the peasants need to be able to hold them back until the proper military can get there to deal with them. Certainly because steel is so costly and it doesn't have any other purpose so it should be considered outside of a non-samurai's ability to afford one, but if they scavenge one from a battlefield or one is a wealthy merchant or one has been recruited and trained as part of a militia by a samurai, it can be more or less shrugged off. Granted, any samurai can technically kill any peasant they feel like at any time regardless with, at worst, having to pay back their lord for breaking their property, so if some samurai decide they feel threatened or put upon by having a peasant armed, they can kill them. But it shouldn't be considered a necessary part of a samurai's duty to go around and kill peasants who arm themselves as a stop-gap measure against bandits and monsters when a properly trained warrior isn't available.

Dueling shouldn't be the solution to absolutely everything and no one should be feel compelled to accept duel against obviously superior opponents. Basically if one or two families are going to be the masters of dueling, you can't have it be a thing where they can literally force anyone into a fight to the death at any moment to eliminate anyone they don't like due to their superior skills and be considered honorable for it. By all means, dueling should still be considered a sport, and those who boast about being the most skilled should face off with the winners being heavily rewarded with gold, respect and admiration. But not everyone should feel compelled to compete in that arena. A Hida can feel completely justified in saying to a Kakita "I acknowledge you are a superior swordsman, but I am not going to fight you to the death using your rules nor am I or my army that outnumbers you 5 to 1 going to abandon our posts because you are a master swordsman."

Dueling should be a way to gain lots of honor, but by no means is it compelled. Functionally that classical "You can fight them to the death and the winner gains 7 honor or you can decline and you lose 5 honor", it should instead be "You can accept, fight to the death and the winner gains 7 honor. If you decline, the other player gains 5 honor." Perhaps the challenge can only be issued to a card that has equal or greater chi than the challenger or there could be an action that causes an honor loss instead of an honor gain if the challenge is made to a card with less chi than the challenger. In the RPG similarly it is totally fair for a samurai whose pride comes from something other than being the best duelist around to acknowledge someone as a superior duelist with dishonor likely coming from either someone who goes around challenging clearly inferior opponents or accepting a duel that causes them to abandon or forgo their duties in the vain hope of gaining some personal glory.

That being said, by all means dueling could be part of the setting history about how the clans were originally unified. I mean, its got to be better than "we invited all our rivals saying we wanted peace and would share the power, got them all drunk and then killed them all while they were sleeping" which would be accurate.

Bushido is good to have, but not essential and failures of bushido are not the end of one. Some families proclaim themselves to be the best and try their hardest to stick to the principles, others... not so much and everyone knows it and they are not expected to kill themselves over it. It should be treated as an ideal to strive to live up to, not a code one is expected to adhere to in every single action they ever take.And likely every clan is going to emphasize on of the ideals above the others so that if they come into conflict, they will be expected to choose the value their clan champions. Now, that being said, if one very clearly violates the principle and don't find victory as a result, they might find themselves the target of rumor and ridicule and find it very difficult to have their requests filled and find people don't want to associate closely with them.

Basically, we can say "well, the Lion clan acts honorable all the time so it would be surprising if they did something that wasn't within the code and as a result people prioritize them and give them discounts, favors and cooperate with them easily. We don't expect a whole lot of honor from the Spider clan and so people tend to disassociate with them, jack up their prices, don't do favors for them and aren't very cooperative unless forced by threats of violence or extortion."

Seppuku also has to be considerably more rare. It cannot be the solution to absolutely everything as it has sometimes been treated. Realistically, seppuku happened only under one of three circumstances... either (1) someone had lost a battle and killing themselves was likely a better fate than what the enemy would do to them if captured, (2) Someone was forced to carry out a duty that violated their conscience and so they did the duty and then killed themselves in protest, or (3) Someone was going to be executed, particularly for political machinations that were done to avoid future conflict and they were allowed to kill themselves and be buried with honor rather than the worse fate they would befall if executed as an enemy of the state.

Maybe because of the very real nature of spiritual things in Rokugan it can remain a 'I screwed up so monumentally badly that there is no undoing or coming back from this and it is basically the only way my soul isn't going to be dragged to Jigoku kicking and screaming'. But outside of that, it just doesn't happen-- and it doesn't happen lightly as it should be considered better to live with one's failures and seek to redeem themselves than take the comparatively easy way out. Seppuku erases your mistakes, but also erases your heroism setting you at a net neutral state and people will basically act as though you never did anything of note while working to redeem oneself means one's glorious and honorable actions will be remembered as outweighing their failures.

True shugenja families shouldn't really be a thing. Which is to say that someone born from a shugenja isn't necessarily going to have the same spiritual connection and shugenja can be born to any family-- even to peasants! Each clan would have its own school for training shugenja in their style and those with the natural talent are more often than not adopted or married into that family. For instance, only a small number of the Kuni were born to Kuni parents, others were born to the Hida, Hiruma, Kaiu or the ashigaru or peasants that serve them and then adopted as Kuni. Of course, shugenja born to peasants are targets for the taint, particularly in Crab lands, so the Kuni try to get any child who may have the soul of a shugenja as fast as possible lest they find the child tainted beyond cleansing and have no choice but to execute the child.

These sorts of ideas, trying to bring the game closer to how a real life society could and would function would allow more and better stories to be told and allow it to be a better setting for telling stories of human drama within and a world where clans of varying degrees of honor can all logically exist without killing themselves en masse.

A mechanical idea for the Card Game would be fixing enlightenment victory. The barrier to enlightenment victory is very clear and can be solved fairly simply-- you don't have to draw the rings. The rings are considered in all players' hands at all times. In terms of set up, they would be placed behind your stronghold. Once you meet the requirements, they will be considered activated. They would have to have a less dramatic effect than previous editions upon activation, but enough of an edge that most players will want to activate one or two and maybe it is a bit more difficult to activate them without shortcuts, but you can activate them at any time. Once they are all activated at the start of your turn, you win via enlightenment victory.

As for the story, I would go back to the death of the last Hantei. Basically the emperor's son and wife were ambushed and are assumed dead. Over the next five years, the emperor himself seemed to have gone mad and the once united land has been fractured and small border disputes began. And at last the madness finally took hold of the emperor and he killed himself. Thus the throne has been left empty. Since a civil war happened centuries ago where a younger Hantei killed his older brother and took the throne, the Hantei have had a policy that all other children of the Hantei must renounce their name and claim to the throne. Thus even though there is a fairly decent sized "Clan of Hantei" consisting mainly of Seppun and Otomo with Miya and the Brotherhood being their primary servant families, none of them has any more right to claim the throne than anyone else-- which doesn't mean they won't try.

So the first story arc of the renewed game would be a race to see who can secure the capital and take the throne. There would be 10 factions with 4 initially revealed families each (there might be more families) and each family would generally have a distinct theme to it. To get it down to this number it is necessary to eject some of the families. Maybe someone else can think of a way to expand each clan to 5 families, probably by breaking up some of the families that have too wide of a theme into two distinct families (Doji, Bayushi and any other family who in the 4th edition book had two schools with the same name) or absorbing some of the minor clans. But perhaps it is best to say any 5th family would be introduced in expansions and simply leave how many families each clan has in total an unanswered question.

Crab
Since the dawn of the empire, the Crab have served on its far border with the Shadowlands, a land of darkness at the center of which is a pit to Jigoku itself. All other clans have served with them along the wall, but they are its chief protectors. For what they have done and what they have sacrificed, none can disagree that the Crab Clan is a true leader and uniter of the empire. If they can find victory, they can finally lead the empire in a war on the Shadowlands to finally put an end to its great threat.
Families - Hida (force & follower), Hiruma (terrain control and movement), Kaiu (fortifications, item producing and firearms), Kuni (anti-taint/anti-creature/anti-ninja and magic)
General Play: Military victory focus. Strongest against military decks, weakest against dishonor.

Crane

The Crane are the beautiful and refined artists of the empire. They are the richest of the clans, they produce the finest crafts, they train the finest swordsman, and they rule over the courts with their beauty and purity and body and spirit. As they already control the courts like no other, they can easily shift the empire to a new era of peace once the formality of taking the throne is finished. They alone are pure and refined enough to lead the empire into a new glorious era.
Families - Asahina (honor production and magic), Daodoji (terrain control and defense), Doji (court actions), Kakita (honor production)
General Play: Honor victory focus. Strong against dishonor, weakest against enlightenment.

Dragon
Spending most of their time hidden away deep within the mountains, the mysterious Dragon Clan have a deeper understanding of the world than the petty disputes that other clans have. They can foresee the future and know the path the empire must take in order to be successful. Only they have the enlightenment to lead the empire in the new era.

Families - Kitsuki (anti-dishonor/anti-courtier), Mirumoto (honor gain), Tamori (terrain and magic), Togashi (ring play and use)
General Play: Any victory condition possible, enlightenment ideal. No particular weakness a long as you draw the right meta.

Kirin/Unicorn
They protect the empire's northwestern border from the barbarians of the desert that live beyond it. They have the finest, strongest, swiftest horses in all the empire. Many of them are descended from those barbarians from years of mixing it up with them. They know to keep the empire safe, they must expand it but the Hantei never gave them the power to lead the clans on such a quest. Once they take the throne they will be able to lead the empire on a campaign to expand beyond the horizons. (Thematically, the Moto will continue to often have Mongolian names.)

Families - Horiuchi (Movement and magic), Ide (court actions), Moto (cavalry and berserking which may cause taint), Shinjo (cavalry and honor) (Note: Shinjo can take on the matriarchal concept of the Utaku and incorporate that as a wider part of the clan's theme)
General Play: Military victory focus. Strongest against honor and enlightenment, weakest against military.

Lion

The Lion Clan controls the second most powerful army in the empire next to the Crab, yet are also masters of tactics. Their honorable conduct puts them in everyone's good graces. They are already the effective military leaders of Rokugan, thus its true ruler already.They can easily take the throne by force and once that is done, none will dispute their rightful rule.
Families - Akodo (tactician), Ikoma (court actions), Kitsu (honor/dishonor and magic), Matsu (berserking which may cause taint)
General Play: Military/Honor victory focus. Strongest against honor and enlightenment, weakest against military.

Mantis

The Mantis clan is the only clan not descended from one of the original kami that fell to Rokugan. Instead they originate from an island off the coast of Rokugan, and many are descended from the people from the seas beyond it. As the only family that has diplomatic ties to foreign lands, they are the only ones who know about the true threats and opportunities that the empire has stubbornly ignored. By taking the throne, they can finally open up the empire and secure its future. (Thematically, they might get a lot of Chinese and Korean personal names.)
Families - Moshi (ranged attacks and magic), Tsuruichi (ranged attacks), Watanabe (gold production and court actions), Yoritomo (naval and movement)
General Play: Military victory focus. Strongest against military, weakest against dishonor.

Owl

The Owl have ruled over Rokugan for over 1,000 years. Despite the recent bad luck that has made them look bad, they alone know what it actually takes to rule. Though they are scattered across the empire, they must work quickly to put their house in order before the other clans prematurely circling them like vultures do too much damage.
Families - Otomo (dishonor and court actions), Miya (terrain control and movement), Seppun (force enhanced on defense), Brotherhood of Shinsei (ring play and use)
General Play: Enlightenment/Dishonor victory focus. Strongest against military, weakest against enlightenment.

Phoenix

The masters of magic, healers and spiritual leaders of Rokugan, the Phoenix clan's mastery of the arcane arts demonstrates a deep understanding of the universe. They have earned many favors by putting their healing powers to use for other clans. However, the boundaries between clans have prevented the shugenja from working together properly. By taking the throne they can finally dissolve the artificial barriers between clans and have knowledge shared openly throughout the empire.

Families: Agasha (ranged attacks and magic), Asako (court actions), Isawa (ring play and use and magic), Shiba (anti-card elimination)
General: Enlightenment/Honor victory focus. Strongest against Military, weakest against Honor.

Scorpion
The poorest of the clans, the Scorpion have always done what they needed to survive. Masters of stealth, deception and seduction, they rule the dark corners of the court and always have a myriad of ways of eliminating their enemies. The Scorpion clan tends to be looked down upon by the other clans, but they are far too feared to be confronted often. The throne being empty is a chance to finally change their fates for the better. Moreover, only they have what it takes to not only seize the throne, but to hang onto it as well.

Families: Bayushi (dishonor and court actions), Shosuro (Card elimination and ninja), Soshi (dishonor and magic), Yogo (Card elimination and magic)
General: Dishonor victory focus. Strongest against honor, weakest against enlightenment.

Spider
Not an official clan, but rather a large collection of ronin and 'lost' samurai that has formed itself into an organized collective. They are mistrusted by all other clans for all the horrors they are believed to engage in. A surprisingly large amount of the rumors are in fact true. The Spider Clan claims to have located and rescued the true heir to the throne and intends to put him upon it. But no one is certain whether or not the boy is indeed the emperor's son. Still, they may have the most righteous claim to the throne, as much as no one would be happy with an emperor who has been influenced by the Spider.
Families: Chuda (card elimination and magic), Daigotsu (berserk, may cause taint), Goji (Card elimination and ninja), Order of the Spider (ring play and use)

General: Military/enlightenment victory focus. Strongest against enlightenment, weakest against dishonor.

Ronin/Minor Clans

A lot of players have a lot of fun with these. Ideally there should be enough unaligned cards and they should be useful to various deck types, not just military, to the degree they will actually find play. At least if your clan doesn't have the cards necessary to achieve a victory condition or enough meta against a weakness natively, it would be better to use an unaligned card to shore up those weaknesses rather than take another clan's card. There would be an unspecified number of minor clans. I would rename any of the ones that were lazily named after their icon animal. Kitsune, Kaeru, Tonbo, Koomori, Usagi, etc. all need new names. Really it was uncreative, came off as way too unlikely and got way out of control.

It looks like L5R might be restarted, which is probably a good thing. It has been a fun ride having tournament outcomes decide everything, but many tournament wins have kind of prevented a lot of future options being viable. The timeline has gotten a little overcomplicated... so... maybe moving to a new AU Rokugan is a good thing.

I don't think rebooting the timeline is the answer. Just like real-world history, history in Rokugan is layered and complex. One shouldn't feel the need to know every minute detail of each Clan's history in the 12th century, any more than they must know the countless stories pre-1130 that have been inevitably glossed over in composing the backdrop for the setting. I think the simpler answer for FFG is simply to present the setting as such, making it clear that whatever has happened in the past, this is what Rokugan looks like now , and resources are available for new players who wish to delve deeper into the lore of what has come before.

A post that would be better off in the Imperial Histories Thread .

I want to be able to play my Mantis/Kitsune Spirit Honor Deck whether it is a reboot or a continuation of the storyline.

What I don't want to see are autoloss matchups that your post has in it reminds me of.

One thing I would like to see in a reboot is to finally separate the shugenja from the samurai caste. They are clergy through-and-through, and I'm not exactly sure what is the logic behind them being samurai.

I don't understand why people keep believing that the story will be rebooted. If anything, the only evidence we have is to the contrary [although it is very little]. The fact that they mention the colonies in the article FFG released when the transfer first happened seems to indicate that they will be continuing where the story left off, or close to it. It is extremely weak evidence, but it is more than i can find for a story reboot.

But more on topic, if the game does have to be rebooted [which I really hope it isn't], I would hope that the spiritual and mystical aspects are kept intact. As well as the nonhumans.

Do away with the term 'samurai-ko'. If the society has become gender-inclusive, there should be no need for such a distinction.

What is the problem with "samurai-ko"? (I'm italian and in my language there are terms for males and terms form females, so maybe this is normal to me.)

To me, the real problem is the existence of sole female "professions" (utaku battle maiden for example) OR the absence of sole male "professions".

Do away with the term 'samurai-ko'. If the society has become gender-inclusive, there should be no need for such a distinction.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. It's a silly term.

What is the problem with "samurai-ko"? (I'm italian and in my language there are terms for males and terms form females, so maybe this is normal to me.)

To me, the real problem is the existence of sole female "professions" (utaku battle maiden for example) OR the absence of sole male "professions".

Ko means child.

Now I've understand.

Honestly, I've never read the term "samurai-ko" before reading L5R, and at time I thought it was a less used term to indicate the onna bugeisha, maybe chosen because more simple to remember.

However, since now i know the real meaning, I agree to stop using this term, but in favor of "Onna-Bugeisha".

To me, the real problem is the existence of sole female "professions" (utaku battle maiden for example) OR the absence of sole male "professions".

In the case of the battle maidens specifically, I feel that can be easily explained away by the fact that the Unicorn hold fast to their gaijin traditions, some of which may not be as genderless as those familiar to Rokugan's people.

It looks like L5R might be restarted, which is probably a good thing. It has been a fun ride having tournament outcomes decide everything, but many tournament wins have kind of prevented a lot of future options being viable. The timeline has gotten a little overcomplicated... so... maybe moving to a new AU Rokugan is a good thing.

not to rain on your parade, but theres no evidence they are abandoning the existing plot, and a lot of the changes you are suggesting favor a "real world" japan over rokugan. rokugan is not japan. things like the primacy of dueling and the suppression of firearms are there because the writers wanted rokugan to have a specific flavor.

There's not much evidence to go in any direction. There's a tiny, easily disavowed shred of evidence that they might keep the existing plot and history, and none whatsoever of anything else.

To me, the real problem is the existence of sole female "professions" (utaku battle maiden for example) OR the absence of sole male "professions".

In the case of the battle maidens specifically, I feel that can be easily explained away by the fact that the Unicorn hold fast to their gaijin traditions, some of which may not be as genderless as those familiar to Rokugan's people.

It is not written anywhere that this is a gaijin tradition, and this would not be a problem if:

1) Shinjo family would be largely isolated from the rest of the empire

2) The cultural clash would be described in detail, because it is important in a game that place much emphasis on social interactions

However, as I reported in another topic, Utaku family is not the only exception in Rokugan but again, the problem is that it's poorly described.

So, a way very easy to deal with this problem would be eliminating the sexism at all* OR explain in the detail the cultural clash within the variuos families.

*this could be done making the sole female school open also to the males OR creating schools of sole males, not necessarily in the same clans, but in any case, choosing this way the matriarchy, as the patriarchy, should be given away to me.

I have not problem with the sexism against males or females in a fictional game, but it must be described WHY still exist in families that are part of societies that give equal opportunities to all and what cultural clash this causes.

P.S.: sorry for my bad english.

To me, the real problem is the existence of sole female "professions" (utaku battle maiden for example) OR the absence of sole male "professions".

In the case of the battle maidens specifically, I feel that can be easily explained away by the fact that the Unicorn hold fast to their gaijin traditions, some of which may not be as genderless as those familiar to Rokugan's people.

To me, the real problem is the existence of sole female "professions" (utaku battle maiden for example) OR the absence of sole male "professions".

In the case of the battle maidens specifically, I feel that can be easily explained away by the fact that the Unicorn hold fast to their gaijin traditions, some of which may not be as genderless as those familiar to Rokugan's people.

It is not written anywhere that this is a gaijin tradition, and this would not be a problem if:

1) Shinjo family would be largely isolated from the rest of the empire

2) The cultural clash would be described in detail, because it is important in a game that place much emphasis on social interactions

However, as I reported in another topic, Utaku family is not the only exception in Rokugan but again, the problem is that it's poorly described.

So, a way very easy to deal with this problem would be eliminating the sexism at all* OR explain in the detail the cultural clash within the variuos families.

*this could be done making the sole female school open also to the males OR creating schools of sole males, not necessarily in the same clans, but in any case, choosing this way the matriarchy, as the patriarchy, should be given away to me.

I have not problem with the sexism against males or females in a fictional game, but it must be described WHY still exist in families that are part of societies that give equal opportunities to all and what cultural clash this causes.

P.S.: sorry for my bad english.

As it stands, the whole topic of gender neutrality is something that has been attempted to be written into a game that was based on a time and place where it never existed. Yes, Rokugan is not Japan, except for when it totally is.

The fact of the matter is, I agree with Sebastian about either go no sexism at all, or allow it to be completely sexist. The reality is, gender neutrality means any gender can go anywhere. This is not the case for Rokugan as it wasn't for Feudal Japan (for the most part)

The *perception* of gender neutrality can occur, and be easily explained:

The Clan Wars did a number on the samurai population. So much so that the great clans recognized that paying attention to what sex/gender a samurai was born with was more detrimental to their cause than good. To put it more succinctly, during the Clan Wars, the male born samurai population declined drastically. The clans need to fill their armies, and eventually, they decided any sex will do. This remained the situation for so long due to the repetitive conflicts and events that occurred (everything from the war of fire and shadow, to the war of the spirits, and beyond).

Following this, there is the fact that shortly after Kali-ma, there was the expansion to the colonies, which further thinned the available ranks of men and women within the empire, and what you are left with is a relatively sparse population.

This is not the place for identity politics. it is one reason i play the game: to escape real world BS.

Either tear it all down, or shut up about it.

It looks like L5R might be restarted, which is probably a good thing. It has been a fun ride having tournament outcomes decide everything, but many tournament wins have kind of prevented a lot of future options being viable. The timeline has gotten a little overcomplicated... so... maybe moving to a new AU Rokugan is a good thing.

not to rain on your parade, but theres no evidence they are abandoning the existing plot, and a lot of the changes you are suggesting favor a "real world" japan over rokugan. rokugan is not japan. things like the primacy of dueling and the suppression of firearms are there because the writers wanted rokugan to have a specific flavor.

Well, the problem with keeping everything until now?...

The history is way too thick and impenetrable for any new player. Even a decent explanation of each of the clans cannot be done without a dozen caveats made and explaining a vast litany of events from "recent history" that kind of undo the supposed unifying themes and ideas that there used to be. This is particularly messy when trying to deal with the Spider Clan. Just try to explain the Spider Clan in entirety, what they are, why they do things and what they do without mentioning anything about esoteric concepts like Shourido or mentioning any Spider Clan personality.

Back at the start of the game, the clans were far more unified in concepts and one could explain them just fine without referring to any specific personalities because not much history or many personalities had even been created or developed. But the overarching concepts of who they are and what they do could be expressed.

The storyline blew its load-- again and again and again until it had nothing left. Trying to **** desperately to make each villain surpass each last villain in sheer destructive force, they blew up Rokugan again and again and again to the point that it is difficult to believe there could even be any survivors, much less than the survivors would be still competing against one another like the rich, spoiled, entitled samurai who knew little of loss and figured any skirmishes were just a brief interlude in endless generations of peace back in Imperial edition. The samurai in the Rokugan of its end-- far as they knew, they might be the only nation of survivors in a world that had been invaded by and crushed by hell, everything they held sacred has been corrupted, everything that had been built over a thousand years had been melted away and the little hope that the last few generations had created was instead ruined and made things even worse.

There aren't many samurai left and no way to replenish their losses. Their world was at an end and any cosmic force that stepped in to save them at this point wouldn't only be delaying their inevitable extinction since no matter how much time they have, they can never rebuild back into the simplistic and stable state that had once existed.

It is just the worst possibly entry point for new players. And the game isn't going to survive on just the last few hangers on who were still playing when AEG sold the property. Especially only the sector that is going to return after a two-year hiatus.

@TheHobgoblyn: Not to be rude, but could you please address my comment on your original post, as it's particularly relevant to the new player problem you are describing? I'd be curious to know why or why not the approach I suggested could work without changing existing continuity. Here it is again:

I don't think rebooting the timeline is the answer. Just like real-world history, history in Rokugan is layered and complex. One shouldn't feel the need to know every minute detail of each Clan's history in the 12th century, any more than they must know the countless stories pre-1130 that have been inevitably glossed over in composing the backdrop for the setting. I think the simpler answer for FFG is simply to present the setting as such, making it clear that whatever has happened in the past, this is what Rokugan looks like now , and resources are available for new players who wish to delve deeper into the lore of what has come before.

@TheHobgoblyn: Not to be rude, but could you please address my comment on your original post, as it's particularly relevant to the new player problem you are describing? I'd be curious to know why or why not the approach I suggested could work without changing existing continuity. Here it is again:

I don't think rebooting the timeline is the answer. Just like real-world history, history in Rokugan is layered and complex. One shouldn't feel the need to know every minute detail of each Clan's history in the 12th century, any more than they must know the countless stories pre-1130 that have been inevitably glossed over in composing the backdrop for the setting. I think the simpler answer for FFG is simply to present the setting as such, making it clear that whatever has happened in the past, this is what Rokugan looks like now , and resources are available for new players who wish to delve deeper into the lore of what has come before.

This is the way it was taught to me all the way back in 1st edition. While there's more stuff out now, back then we already had all the Way of the Clans books, 2 of the Winter Court books, Book of the Shadowlands, Bearers of Jade, several box sets, etc. There was a ton of information available for those that wanted to look into it, and some of us did. However, many other players learned what it took to play the game, the way the setting looks now, and played from there. They did just fine. As have many other players I've taught over the years that didn't feel the need to learn all the ins and outs of the setting's history.

@TheHobgoblyn: Not to be rude, but could you please address my comment on your original post, as it's particularly relevant to the new player problem you are describing? I'd be curious to know why or why not the approach I suggested could work without changing existing continuity. Here it is again:

I don't think rebooting the timeline is the answer. Just like real-world history, history in Rokugan is layered and complex. One shouldn't feel the need to know every minute detail of each Clan's history in the 12th century, any more than they must know the countless stories pre-1130 that have been inevitably glossed over in composing the backdrop for the setting. I think the simpler answer for FFG is simply to present the setting as such, making it clear that whatever has happened in the past, this is what Rokugan looks like now , and resources are available for new players who wish to delve deeper into the lore of what has come before.

I think I did answer it.

The original contention of the game.

There were a certain limited number of Great Clans. We were told that prior to this date there were 1,000 years of peace. It really didn't matter what happened in recent history because recent history was not heavily weighing on or dictating anything that happened. While there might have been skirmishes, none of the existing 7 clans had ever been a serious existential threat to any other. Everyone was more or less neutral to everyone.

Each clan had a very definite theme.

Crab were rugged and tough, they protected the empire against monsters.

Crane were beautiful, rich and decadent-- there was this weird fixation on saying that they produced brides, but they were otherwise artists.

Dragon was mysterious and they used two swords, they lived on the mountains and no one really knew what they had been up to.

Lion were very traditionalist, rigid and the masters of warfare.

Scorpion were shadey, mask-wearing samurai who utilized lots of ninja and might possibly, but not definitively, have a monopoly on that.

Unicorn rode horses and were based on Mongolians for the most part.

And apparently they had always been exactly like this for 1,000 years and everything had been stable (the more detailed Unicorn backstory was invented later). Again, no one in the previous 7 generations had done anything that it was necessary for the players to know about. Certainly there were not a dozen times the Empire had been destroyed that anyone within this world absolutely needed to know about in order to seem even vaguely aware. The emperor's family going missing, presumably killed, followed by the Samurai killing the Emperor was the only thing one actually needed to know about in order to fully grasp the situation at hand. Everything that happened within those 1,000 years of peace that was not peaceful was retconned in later to justify later storylines and so when those elements arose, they were introduced to people as though they were new concepts-- not something everyone should already absolutely know about.

There were no oracles, while there were claims that the Kitsu could speak to ancestors and claims that the Scorpion were dealing with dangerous magic when they did their ninja stuff-- nothing about the realms, how magic worked, the stated religious tenets, even the story of the kami and the claim that Hantei was necessarily possessed-- none of that was definitive. Ultra ancient, super powerful beings were not constantly interfering with the goings-on in the world and no one had personal relationships with the Kami or the Sun or the Moon, nor was anyone running around who was the literally embodiment of the elements. There were not a dozen different non-human creatures encountered regularly that everyone is expected to know of, there were not a dozen minor clans, all of the clans came about in the same way and none of them were outright directly malicious, evil and destructive.

Although there was said to be a general concept of honor and code of ethics, they were not nearly as regimented as they eventually become and players were not expected to jump on one another murderously for not using the right name suffix.

Jumping into the game as it was from where AEG left it off is like jumping into an epic tragedy right when the whole thing is coming to a close and not knowing who any of the groups involved are and expected to play the role of a member of one of those groups.

I am sure that FFG can produce a game that mechanically can be picked up by beginners.... maybe... it would require dropping a ton of the rules that were added on. So much about CCG L5Rs rules were found in the rulebook and were not printed anywhere on any of the cards, at best there might simply be a single word trait that was supposed to key you into the mechanic. So, you simplify everything down so that what a card does is actually clearly printed on the card and knowing what the various numbers mean on the card is not considerably detailed and complicated. (i.e. 'this is the honor requirement, to bring this card out you need to have this much honor-- which I am sure you have been count-- unless the opponent has made you lose any honor, then you can ignore this number. Next to that is the gold cost, except you don't actually have to play that cost if the card says it is part of your faction which you can check by the border color and the traits listed below. If it is your faction, you can either play it for full cost to gain a number of honor which is the third number printed on the card or for 2 less gold. When it comes into play it might have an effect, check the text to see if it does. A common effect is losing honor for evil cards, but if you are Spider Clan and it has the Shadowlands trait you can ignore the honor loss for the card'-- and that is what you have to deal with just bringing a personality into play, nevermind Cavalry, Naval, Tactician, Yu, etc. which have universal inherent effects which are only found in the rulebook.)

But really, if one is trying to hook a new player to the story? The fact that Imperial Edition each clan could be explained in a sentence or two with nothing else needed to be known because little else was written... and in the current edition you basically need a short novel to even hope to begin to understand what the clan is about or what they are remotely talking about... its a problem. The point is left off with the "blow up Rokugan AGAIN! But even MORE so this time! Everyone dies!! The End." is not a jumping-off point for new players to join at-- and even for experienced players, its kind of the natural point to wind down. Everything historic and icon is destroyed with nothing to replace it yet the 9 factions stay exactly as they are because they are immutable and permanent due to card game mechanical reasons regardless of anything else... so where do you go?

Really, "deus ex machina, the whole world gets reset" is the only functional direction left to go in. It is basically at the point that comic book companies write themselves into a dead end, do one giant blow off and then start anew in a new continuity where everyone more or less much of the same stuff happens with a few details altered so you can get back to a functional status quo from which someone can actually come in rather than keeping the dense and impenetrable lore which, without knowing, you have no idea where to even start.

Now , the fact that you think history is just history and doesn't matter and you can ignore it completely and play anyway.....

Okay, here are your scenarios.

The player hasn't played since Jade or Gold edition. They come back now. They are interested in participating in the online Winter Court thing. They like the Phoenix Clan and the Scorpion Clan.... tell them what they would need to know in less than 5 sentences.

Now, try the same thing for a brand new player who only vaguely understands samurai culture, maybe they have played the Samurai Warriors game. They come in. They thing think black and white Spider ones or maybe the dark blue Crab ones look interesting.

After all, all events can just totally and completely be ignored according to you. None of it apparently matters in the least bit and having their whole world blown up countless times since their own birth could not possibly have affected them in any way. They don't need to know a single character name or understand any of the mystical elements or detailed codes of conduct. So you lay out the basics one would actually need to play right this second as a character in this world within 5 sentences, a 1-minute rundown.

Did you need to know the 1000 years of history when the game first started in Imperial Edition. nope.

Not going to be an issue now.

Full time line reboot unnecessary and not going to happen. More likely a jump to a later time period for a fresh start. Those that want to learn more can, those that don't aren't required to read a storyline longer and more convoluted than all of your posts together.

I'm sorry, but the argument "there is too much history for new players, the game should be rebooted" is just silly.

It's akin to saying that Star Wars should be rebooted, because there are 40 years of stories and movies and it's too much for the new kids to learn of.

And I should add, that the suggestions given in the OP to modernize the game... well, there's a game where all/nearly all of those things already exist, minus the trademarked Clan/Family denominations of L5R: Sengoku Revised. It is a better move for folks who want that kind of setting to pick a game that already exists in it, than to force another game to change to suit their tastes. Not to mention it'd be (IMHO) a ginormously awful business decision of FFG to try and battle other game(s) for a specific market niche, instead of capitalizing in the existing one that they already bought, own and have full monopoly of.

I'm sorry, but the argument "there is too much history for new players, the game should be rebooted" is just silly.

It's akin to saying that Star Wars should be rebooted, because there are 40 years of stories and movies and it's too much for the new kids to learn of.

Agreed.

In fact, the existence of said history was one of the things that pulled me, and many others I've interacted with, to the game (and to other games that contain a thorough history). They can learn enough to sit down and play a few sessions easy enough. Then, unlike with some systems, there's a lot of additional stuff out there for them to devour, learning more about a detail-rich setting/history.

One thing I would like to see in a reboot is to finally separate the shugenja from the samurai caste. They are clergy through-and-through, and I'm not exactly sure what is the logic behind them being samurai.

Hmmm.

I think you're confusing terms.... Samurai doesn't mean one is a warrior. It just means the individual is a noble. Artisans, Priests, Actors, and yes Warriors can all be samurai. The thing here is that Priests are known as Shugenja, and Warriors are known as Bushi.

But they're all noblemen (and women) and therefore they are all Samurai

One thing I would like to see in a reboot is to finally separate the shugenja from the samurai caste. They are clergy through-and-through, and I'm not exactly sure what is the logic behind them being samurai.

Hmmm.

I think you're confusing terms.... Samurai doesn't mean one is a warrior. It just means the individual is a noble. Artisans, Priests, Actors, and yes Warriors can all be samurai. The thing here is that Priests are known as Shugenja, and Warriors are known as Bushi.

But they're all noblemen (and women) and therefore they are all Samurai

I mean, Shugenja shouldn't be considered as a 'noble' but as an out-of-the-system part of the greater society like the monks. So there would be like three PC "social castes": Samurai (Bushi/Courtier/Artisan), Clergy (Shugenja/Monk), and Ninja.

That's kinda how it was in Rokugani history. Shugenja were still samurai, but since they were the clergy, they weren't allowed to serve as warriors on the battlefield. Healing only.

The Phoenix Clan sought for shugenja to be able to do more than that. They were opposed by the Lion. Fighting ensued, on the battlefield and in the courts. In the end, it was decided that shugenja would be allowed to fight on the battlefield in addition to their more priestly duties.

That SAID, I would certainly like to see more focus put on the priestly duties of shugenja. More often than not they've been treated like D&D evokers, throwing fireballs. Shugenja are holy men, and should be treated as such.