I hate them for having EPT, Astromech slot, 2 Torpedo slots, 3 base PS and godly dial when compared to Wild Space Fringer - being 5 points cheaper for only 1 shield less.

Seriously, what was the designers' team thinking? Making a ship crazily undercosted for it's statline and pretending the problem isn't there (LTF, sucker!) is just pushing the already present power-creep issue to whole new levels.

But hey - Buy to Win isn't Pay to Win, right?

As a follow-up, swarms can also think about playing another numbers game with their hit points.

The virtually guaranteed four hits from plasma torps can actually act to make extra hull or shield points on your ships a disadvantage. Overkill means that some ships are more vulnerable than others to being wiped out in an efficient way by the U-boats.

The B-wing is a great example of this - eight hit points behind one agility dice just doesn't cut it when you take account of the plasma torp's shield removal. The first shot will probably take off four or five hit points, depending on whether you evade or not, leaving you with three or four behind one evade dice, not good odds at all. So two plasma torps will almost always kill a B-wing - the extra shield is actually a disadvantage here.

The bad news continues for rebels with the T65. You can only get four in a list, and with only six hits (including IA) two torps almost guarantee a kill. The X-wing's fix, Integrated Astromech, is effectively useless here. T70s are a little better off - with 7 hit points including IA, two evades on four dice will see you survive, but this is a very uncertain outcome on which to risk a game. However three X-wings will probably not kill one Jumpmaster - this is the T-65s only advantage though as you can get four PS4s in to guarantee a shot before the first dies.

TIE fighters and Z-95s are better. With three and four hits respectively, a Z can tank one plasma torp as long as it rolls a single evade - with a focus that's a decent chance at survival. The TIE has to roll two - still a good chance with a focus but not guaranteed. Alternatively the TIE can evade, guaranteeing survival as long as a single evade appears on the dice - however this hits their damage output as the entire swarm would need to do this. A PS4 swarm might also be a worthwhile investment to guarantee you shoot first.

The Kihraxz is also at an interesting point - with five hit points it will always take two torps, making them very inefficient for the Jumpmaster to kill. On the initial joust they can only take down one - in return twelve attack dice has a decent chance at killing a Jumpmaster, although not guaranteed! 5K might actually work pretty well against U-boats. You can't get five PS5s in though.

With four hit points and three evade dice, cheap A-wing or TAP swarms might actually work as they probably need two torps to kill - the downside is the lower firepower and numbers thanks to higher base cost. PS3 A-wings are also risky as initiative can have a big impact on the game. On the other hand, with boost these ships have an opportunity to get to Range 1... TAP Barons at PS4 and the title might just be in a very good place - guaranteed survival from one torp, boost possibilities, and shooting first is a good combo. You can fit five in a list with the title - perhaps this is the shape of a new anti-ordnance meta?

Note that the examples given don't take into account crits. A badly-timed direct hit can kill something that would otherwise survive...

I haven't yet faced them, but I've thought a lot of how to beat them with my tourney list. Played my first game against aces with my tourney list yesterday. I had a clear plan going in, and it very nearly worked, but it's given me the knowledge I need to fly against them.

I fully expect to lose against the jumpmasters too, first time around. The second go I'll kick their teeth in

In other words, treat the loss as a learning experience. Pretty much every list can beat any other list in the right circumstances, it's your job to figure out how to bring them about!

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

Maybe instead of throwing around hate you could actually, you know, read?

They said they play double VCX.

The trick v scouts is almost the same as v aggressors: fly better

Large ships get ruined by obstacles and bumps

What does this mean for vcxs? Either initiative bid + leebo (block from beyond the range ruler) or make room for a humble proto pilot

Also can grab your chunkiest debris and fly one with Hera crew

Practice blocking; never get torpedoed again

Yes, it does take skill to coordinate 3 large ships to focus fire on the same target in 3 arcs in the first round. I have watched people pick up the list thinking it required no skill to play, not realize the difference between flying small vs large ships in formation, and spend the first few turns bumping their own ships into each other. I have also seen many players new to the list roll their dice before using their salvaged Astromech ability, which means you don't get to use it.

A skilled player can force the first exchange at range 1 where they can't fire their torps. If you're running VCXs, and they setup across from you, just start with a 2-straight, which will keep you out of range of their torpedoes no matter what maneuver they do, and then use the rule of 16 to make your next maneuver put you into range 1 of them no matter how slow they go. If you don't know the rule of 16 (aka the rule of 11),then you still have some stuff to learn about this game. Just be glad that TLT lists are now being driven out of the game.

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

I hate Acewing in general. My most hated Acewing is Soontir.

That being said, triple Jumpmaster has done wonders for the meta. It has helped to (further) curbstomp fat turrets and regen and quad TLT from the game. All that NPE stuff is gone. If Rebels have no viable builds anymore good. Pretty much everything viable they had was based around some no skill NPE game mechanic.

Also, it's not even true that Rebels have no viable builds. Think better, there is more to squad building than slapping a ~40 point Poe next to a ~60 point Han.

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

I prefer genericwing to Acewing in general. My most hated Acewing is Soontir.

That being said, triple Jumpmaster has done wonders for the meta. It has helped to (further) curbstomp fat turrets and regen and quad TLT from the game. All that NPE stuff is gone. If Rebels have no viable builds anymore, then good. Pretty much everything viable they had was based around some no skill NPE game mechanic.

Also, it's not even true that Rebels have no viable builds. Think better, there is more to squad building than slapping a ~40 point Poe next to a ~60 point Han.

Let's see what you hate: turrets, TLT's, Aces, Rebels - in fact it seems you hate pretty much almost whole X-Wing. Why do you bother to still play this game? Or for that matter spit the venom on this forum?

But the most funny thing is how happy you are with no brain alpha strike list like triple U-boats, yet you hate on Aces lists - type of lists that require careful flying and are based on good positioning.

The trick v scouts is almost the same as v aggressors: fly better

Large ships get ruined by obstacles and bumps

What does this mean for vcxs? Either initiative bid + leebo (block from beyond the range ruler) or make room for a humble proto pilot

Also can grab your chunkiest debris and fly one with Hera crew

Practice blocking; never get torpedoed again

Specifically thinking about

"Zeb" Orrelios (18)

Intelligence Agent (1)

Prototype Pilot (17)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)

Total: 100

...or maybe a different kind of list with an YT#### and three As.

My mate is running that at the minute, it's a solid all round list, he put blaster turret, Moldy Crow and Zuckuss on it - I generally run some variation of Ace + Mini Swarm and I find myself having to deal with that pesky HWK before I can comfortably move on to his Jumpmasters, I've also seen him taking on 3 Uboats and the look in his opponents eyes when one of their Jumpmasters first gets his focus stolen, then gets blasted, then has to re-roll any successful defence dice is quite amusing.

I don't know if it'll be 100% competitive, and he is still tweaking the list, but it's fun to play against and fun to watch being played- especially against people who are not familiar with Palob, or Zuckuss.

Are you sure thats Autoblaster and not Dorsal Turret? Autoblaster is a terrible choice on HWKs in my opinion and also has little to no synergy with Zuckuss...

Blaster turret even, no idea why I put "auto" on there.

Personally I'm both terrified and excited to face my first Wolfpack.

With only 3 ships in my list, one a B-Wing, I know I'm at the mercy of the other guy's red dice luck. But I also know that if I can wether the first salvo with 2 ships relatively intact I can have him for lunch. I'll make the big bastids regret getting into a knife fight with me. Particularly if the B is still operational. Hera in a B-Wing is a god send once you get in tight. If only B-Wing E2 was a Title and not a Modification.

Blaster turret even, no idea why I put "auto" on there.

Must of been on automatic.

Biggest issue I have with them is they killed the diversity of the game. Now it's just Palp aces and Jumpmasters. I've been trying to come up with a list that handles both aces and u-boats and I'm drawing a blank. I can build a list that counters one but loses to the other hard. Can't wait for veterans maybe that will shake it up a bit more to bring back the diversity.

Biggest issue I have with them is they killed the diversity of the game. Now it's just Palp aces and Jumpmasters. I've been trying to come up with a list that handles both aces and u-boats and I'm drawing a blank. I can build a list that counters one but loses to the other hard. Can't wait for veterans maybe that will shake it up a bit more to bring back the diversity.

ABT Ghost with Kanan as Pilot and with Biggs at his side. Add Phantom and Upgrades to taste. Range one is really hard to avoid all game even for aces and the Torpedoes are a lot less scary (and Ace-primaries are just laghable) when they are only 3 dice and Biggs gets R4-D6 and an extra green from hiding behind Kanan.

Biggest issue I have with them is they killed the diversity of the game. Now it's just Palp aces and Jumpmasters. I've been trying to come up with a list that handles both aces and u-boats and I'm drawing a blank. I can build a list that counters one but loses to the other hard. Can't wait for veterans maybe that will shake it up a bit more to bring back the diversity.

ABT Ghost with Kanan as Pilot and with Biggs at his side. Add Phantom and Upgrades to taste. Range one is really hard to avoid all game even for aces and the Torpedoes are a lot less scary (and Ace-primaries are just laghable) when they are only 3 dice and Biggs gets R4-D6 and an extra green from hiding behind Kanan.

I played against a similar list here the other day. I just feel like even with biggs and kanan the torpedoes would just eat through that pretty fast. I'll have to give it a try though haven't played with the ghost much

They haven't killed the diversity of the game any more than when the decimator came out, and it was all decimator s and fat hans.

Versus U-boats try this list:

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!175:170,-1,3,-1:-1:15:;64:-1:-1:-1:;65:13:-1:25:;65:13:-1:25:;65:13:-1:25:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

Poe with 4 Z-95's (3 Tala's and one bandit)

Flank with Poe and use the bandit to block while using the Tala's to threaten the U-boats.

- If the U-Boats go after Poe, the Z-95's can block them up and deny them actions as well as hurt them with their missiles.

- If they go after the Tala's, Poe gets around in behind and can cause lots of damage and really can hurt them as a late game pilot.

Biggest issue I have with them is they killed the diversity of the game. Now it's just Palp aces and Jumpmasters. I've been trying to come up with a list that handles both aces and u-boats and I'm drawing a blank. I can build a list that counters one but loses to the other hard. Can't wait for veterans maybe that will shake it up a bit more to bring back the diversity.

I take it you haven't been watching the regional reports. Hoth was an outlier. Most reporting tournaments are showing a wide field right now of tournament lists. Heck two regionals were won by 5 a wings, flown by two different people. So I find your arguement, rather lacking.

I don't play aces. my point is that the scouts have an enormous amount of firepower that requires little skill to bear. you can't win with aces or palpaces without some skill, but you can win with scouts with very little skill, while at the same time you need skill to beat them. that is my only complain.

well no, I also complain that on top of that they also get boba fett to go with their proton torps, and focus/TL each turn even after they are out of torps. I mean, my opponent kept apologizing for playing the list

Wait, is "2 hard green" SKILL?

If so then yes, palp aces is the true SKILLZ squad that definitely doesn't rely on PS9+ re-positioning and getting evades out of thin air

And sure thing, UUU is a skilless build that definitely isn't 3 huge ships that can never bump, fly too close, avoid blocks nor are they afraid of asteroids and are not hard to rotate around the field. Sure!

[/sarcasm]

QUite literally they require lots of skill because it's 3 large abses that require the focus and must all cover the same area because otherwise the "SKILLZ" ace lists will just spit on your torpedoes.

Learn to block and be happy.

I used a build against U-Boats a few days back (Dutch, 2x Red T-65s and a Tala, with a couple of ordnance upgrades on) tabled all three for the loss of one T-65. If you can alpha strike a toilet seat off the board in the first turn (doable) and then manage to exploit range 1 (also doable) you have a good chance of winning against that build. If you dont you will probably lose to their ordnance strike. I dont like the way that limits gameplay options. Do this, or lose!

I agree with most of whats been said above, wave 8 has killed meta diversity from what I have seen in my area due to the netlist potential of the wave. It was yet another release of mary-sue freighters that can out-fight and out-maneuver military-grade fighters whilst also being significantly points discounted for what they bring.

We have another store tourney coming up and Im not convinced I want to take part because I can guarantee I will be one of the few people not flying an accuracy corrector, autoblaster, engine upgeade ghost or 3 toilet seats with trimmings.

does it take skill to point 3 scouts in the general direction of the opponent's side and launch torpedoes? I always wanted ordnance to be stronger, I regret it, I regret it all.

Yes, actually. Have you ever tried to fly 3 Large base ships. And set up a good cross fire.

I do it all the time... behold the GLORY of X-EPIC!!!

I used a build against U-Boats a few days back (Dutch, 2x Red T-65s and a Tala, with a couple of ordnance upgrades on) tabled all three for the loss of one T-65. If you can alpha strike a toilet seat off the board in the first turn (doable) and then manage to exploit range 1 (also doable) you have a good chance of winning against that build. If you dont you will probably lose to their ordnance strike. I dont like the way that limits gameplay options. Do this, or lose!

I agree with most of whats been said above, wave 8 has killed meta diversity from what I have seen in my area due to the netlist potential of the wave. It was yet another release of mary-sue freighters that can out-fight and out-maneuver military-grade fighters whilst also being significantly points discounted for what they bring.

We have another store tourney coming up and Im not convinced I want to take part because I can guarantee I will be one of the few people not flying an accuracy corrector, autoblaster, engine upgeade ghost or 3 toilet seats with trimmings.

Edited cause autocorrect decided the T in trump needed capitalization.

...and so it begins... *shudder*

GLORY...