does it take skill to point 3 scouts in the general direction of the opponent's side and launch torpedoes? I always wanted ordnance to be stronger, I regret it, I regret it all.

scouts are deadly but they have their weaknesses. their arcs can be dodged by aces easily enough and you need to be aware of their blocking. in close they get 3 dice from their primary weapon. so dont get caught in close unless your trading decent damage. their firepower lessens in the end game so if u can avoid losing too many ships in the first exchange you can turn the tables on them mid-late game. similar to brobots the u-boats are vulnerable from the flanks and rear. chip away at range2 and stay out of their primary arcs. and yes it does take skill to keep at least 2 of you scouts in primary firing arc if your opponent splits up their approach vectors/formation.

does it take skill to point 3 scouts in the general direction of the opponent's side and launch torpedoes? I always wanted ordnance to be stronger, I regret it, I regret it all.

Yes, actually. Have you ever tried to fly 3 Large base ships. And set up a good cross fire.

...in close they get 3 dice from their primary weapon. so dont get caught in close unless your trading decent damage....

Eh...well, yeah, 3 dice, sure, but...it's a turret. So...don't be in front of them. Slow roll a round or two until you decide they are going to surge into range, than 5-straight and boost into range-1, out-of-arc on them. Autothrusters FTW! Or whatever, 3 dice with only focus (maybe, presuming Carnor isn't hanging around) isn't going to ruin your day. ESPECIALLY if you shoot first (and picking a few pilots over skill 3 isn't hard) and burn their focus off.

Or, heck, just throw some Academy Pilots in front of them and block their maneuver to deny them the focus token.

Not to dismiss the list - it's insanely powerful, and definitely meta-defining at the moment. But it's not invincible!

does it take skill to point 3 scouts in the general direction of the opponent's side and launch torpedoes? I always wanted ordnance to be stronger, I regret it, I regret it all.

Yes, actually. Have you ever tried to fly 3 Large base ships. And set up a good cross fire.

I fly 2 ghosts with ABT, have you tried flying those between obstacles while also keeping your arcs on aces? the scouts only have to worry about their arc in the first couple of rounds, when it's easier.

...in close they get 3 dice from their primary weapon. so dont get caught in close unless your trading decent damage....

Eh...well, yeah, 3 dice, sure, but...it's a turret. So...don't be in front of them. Slow roll a round or two until you decide they are going to surge into range, than 5-straight and boost into range-1, out-of-arc on them. Autothrusters FTW! Or whatever, 3 dice with only focus (maybe, presuming Carnor isn't hanging around) isn't going to ruin your day. ESPECIALLY if you shoot first (and picking a few pilots over skill 3 isn't hard) and burn their focus off.

Or, heck, just throw some Academy Pilots in front of them and block their maneuver to deny them the focus token.

Not to dismiss the list - it's insanely powerful, and definitely meta-defining at the moment. But it's not invincible!

fine basically you're all saying to fly aces : )

also, the 3 scouts also had boba who killed my 7 point upgrade. there's no fun in that.

...in close they get 3 dice from their primary weapon. so dont get caught in close unless your trading decent damage....

Eh...well, yeah, 3 dice, sure, but...it's a turret. So...don't be in front of them. Slow roll a round or two until you decide they are going to surge into range, than 5-straight and boost into range-1, out-of-arc on them. Autothrusters FTW! Or whatever, 3 dice with only focus (maybe, presuming Carnor isn't hanging around) isn't going to ruin your day. ESPECIALLY if you shoot first (and picking a few pilots over skill 3 isn't hard) and burn their focus off.

Or, heck, just throw some Academy Pilots in front of them and block their maneuver to deny them the focus token.

Not to dismiss the list - it's insanely powerful, and definitely meta-defining at the moment. But it's not invincible!

fine basically you're all saying to fly aces : )

also, the 3 scouts also had boba who killed my 7 point upgrade. there's no fun in that.

Well an 'Academy Pilot' is hardly an 'ace', is it?

Thing is, these are out in the meta, now. Definitely changing it a ton, but new waves tend to do that (you just wait a few weeks and watch what happens with TIE Defenders...)

So you just have to adapt. Now we've got U-boat wolfpacks. Okay. A few ways to deal with that. Aces are good. Blockers are good. Going to have to mix some of those in your list, and know how to use them to beat back the U-boat menace!

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

I don't play aces. my point is that the scouts have an enormous amount of firepower that requires little skill to bear. you can't win with aces or palpaces without some skill, but you can win with scouts with very little skill, while at the same time you need skill to beat them. that is my only complain.

well no, I also complain that on top of that they also get boba fett to go with their proton torps, and focus/TL each turn even after they are out of torps. I mean, my opponent kept apologizing for playing the list

I wonder how they fair against a TIE swarm?

XBear... if u posted up your list or selection of ships you could get some constructive feedback on how to combat u-boats. beating them wout aces is possible, its just looking like imp-aces is the best immediate foil list people have found. you could quite easily come up with a non-ace list to beat them but it might not be great versus other commonly played lists. really depends on what ppl r playing in ur area. Biggs seems like a nice hard counter to alpha strike lists like u-boats. dont assume no skill is needed to play u-boats well, its similar to brobots in that it packs a serious punch at range2-3 if you get caught in multiple arcs. if u can get a blocker to deny them actions or stress them then you effectively nullify their firepower. what im getting at is u have lots of options to combat u-boats both in your own list building and in tactics used against them.

So far I'm doing OK with the swarm against scouts but we'll see at Jakku.

does it take skill to point 3 scouts in the general direction of the opponent's side and launch torpedoes? I always wanted ordnance to be stronger, I regret it, I regret it all.

1. It's not an ordnance problem, it's a problem with the (too) cheap scouts with huge statline, EPT (here lies the real problem: Deadeye) and the rest of their upgrade slots.

2. Yes it still needs skill to fly the scouts and get the needed shots, but blocking OR threatening torpedo shots next for next turn is pretty easy for 3 large bases.

3. Even if the squad needs some skill to work, i still think the Scouts are breaking the game at the moment. They shut too many other builds that made the diversity before U-Boats down too hard. Rebels lost a lot of their competitive options overnight, and the ships really supposed to take ordnance like K, Punisher, Bomber, Y are strictly inferior to the scouts in that role. They are just a few points too cheap for what they have and can do!

does it take skill to point 3 scouts in the general direction of the opponent's side and launch torpedoes? I always wanted ordnance to be stronger, I regret it, I regret it all.

Takes more skill than doing a 2 hard turn every round and being rewarded for it with an invincible ship.

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

I hate Acewing in general. My most hated Acewing is Soontir.

That being said, triple Jumpmaster has done wonders for the meta. It has helped to (further) curbstomp fat turrets and regen and quad TLT from the game. All that NPE stuff is gone. If Rebels have no viable builds anymore good. Pretty much everything viable they had was based around some no skill NPE game mechanic.

Also, it's not even true that Rebels have no viable builds. Think better, there is more to squad building than slapping a ~40 point Poe next to a ~60 point Han.

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

That being said, triple Jumpmaster has done wonders for the meta. It has helped to (further) curbstomp fat turrets and regen and quad TLT from the game. All that NPE stuff is gone. If Rebels have no viable builds anymore, then good. Pretty much everything viable they had was based around some no skill NPE game mechanic.

Also, it's not even true that Rebels have no viable builds. Think better, there is more to squad building than slapping a ~40 point Poe next to a ~60 point Han.

They're jousters... arc dodge them. Should be pretty easy to do on average. The Bumpmaster super troll builds are frankly a lot more of an NPE than anything else you can do with them.

I always marvel at how quickly the statements of "This takes no skill" come out when people are beaten by a new meta list.

I always marvel at how quickly the statements of "This takes no skill" come out when people are beaten by a new meta list.

But really, it's because it's the trump card for argument's on the internet. Got beaten by something? OP and no skill. If I have to think creatively it's the opponent is using an OP item.

Edited cause autocorrect decided the T in trump needed capitalization.

It's interesting to consider just how unlikely the u-boat was to ever exist. There are so many things that are just right to make it work:

- No EPT? Say goodbye to deadeye as well as your R4 Astromech synergy
- Only one torpedo slot? Your follow-up alpha strike is gone
- No R4 agromech? That means no dice mods for your torpedo attack
- No white SLoop? Your second shot would be much harder to make
- If any one of these items or the ship itself cost just one point more you couldn't fit three in 100 points

As it is, that is a very scary alpha strike that now needs to be considered whenever building a competitive list. It's popular partly because it's got the sheer dice to punch through even a Palpatine-defended ace - however that also means that any ships without those kinds of defences suffer even more.

Jousting ships have been on the back foot for a while. This brings them back with a vengeance - but at the same time, because it out-jousts many other jousters, it reduces their viability as competitive choices even more.

As for counters? Here are a few possibilities, which ones actually work is still being decided as the meta adjusts...

- Fast ships with PS4 and boost - if you can catch a U-boat just outside range 3, then close the gap to range 1 fast, you deny them their torpedo shot. What you do next is tricky though, given the white SLoop, but if you can kill one while you're there (maybe Prockets?) it becomes a lot easier.

- Biggs - possibly the best chance for rebels, but it's not clear how you get him to tank all three shots yet...

- Swarms - if a Z or a TIE fighter can survive, even on a single hit point, it needs a follow up shot to finish off - and still had five or six mates. This is playing the numbers game with a vengeance, betting your opponent runs out of torps before you run out of ships. However swarms struggle against Aces...

- Arc dodgers - again if you can avoid the shot you're probably OK

- A counter alpha strike - I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see 99 point U-boats, purely to try and get initiative in mirror matches. Other options might include TIE bombers or (perhaps optimistically) Y-wing with torps. They don't have the same awesome action efficiency of the Jumpmaster, but you can (just) fit four PS4 ships in a list, and they require two plasma torps to kill, with an outside chance at survival even then.

- Blockers - prototype A-wings could become popular...

- Degraders - There are a few ships that can interrupt the Jumpmaster's action chain. Dark Curse is well protected, but that doesn't help the rest of your list, and Omega Ace is similar, although note he can only shut down one shot. More usefully Carnor Jax has a lot of potential, although getting him to range 1 and keeping him there is tricky. For Scum Palob is pure gold - I'm actually interested to see if double U-boats + Palob becomes a thing, perhaps with 98 point initiative over triple Jumpmaster lists. The difficulty is the HWK's dial - being caught at range 3 is a death sentence.

Overall I think most people agrees the U-boats are a meta-changing addition to the game, and whether you love them or hate them you'll have to deal with them. That said they're probably not as bad as the TIE phantom, and I'm sure more counters will emerge as people get to grips with them...

Think of new ways you can defeat your challenges in life instead of just playing the victim.

Or in the modern parlance

Git gud

To be fair, I had this playing against the old Whisper.

I know it wasn't invincible, I beat it every now and then, that isn't the point. I hated that ship because it turned the game into something I didn't want to play.

For some people that was Dash, Turrets, regen, TLT, Acewing etc. Just saying 'ltp' at it really just ignores the issue for the player.

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

I hate Acewing in general. My most hated Acewing is Soontir.

That being said, triple Jumpmaster has done wonders for the meta. It has helped to (further) curbstomp fat turrets and regen and quad TLT from the game. All that NPE stuff is gone. If Rebels have no viable builds anymore good. Pretty much everything viable they had was based around some no skill NPE game mechanic.

Also, it's not even true that Rebels have no viable builds. Think better, there is more to squad building than slapping a ~40 point Poe next to a ~60 point Han.

let me guess, you play acewing.

good to see acewing faceplant!

The problem is that there are only 2 people that hated (Rebel) Aces. You and PGS. The rest of us enjoyed the meta as it was pre-wave 8 in all its diversity... Which was in fact a lot of aces plus TLT and crackswarms.

And then there is the fact that Acewing did in fact not faceplant because PalpAces in a few variants continues to be the most successful squad. You are not against aces, you are against Rebels or Rebel aces. No idea why, maybe they stole your lollipop at some time?

But at least be honest please, so other people see what you are about!

I prefer genericwing to Acewing in general. My most hated Acewing is Soontir.

That being said, triple Jumpmaster has done wonders for the meta. It has helped to (further) curbstomp fat turrets and regen and quad TLT from the game. All that NPE stuff is gone. If Rebels have no viable builds anymore, then good. Pretty much everything viable they had was based around some no skill NPE game mechanic.

Also, it's not even true that Rebels have no viable builds. Think better, there is more to squad building than slapping a ~40 point Poe next to a ~60 point Han.

Your hate for Poe is also inexplicable. He is really a Super-Jouster. If there were any logic about your "i love joustwing" talking you should direly love Poe. He is the absolute archetype of a jouster. Durable, not a lot of arc-dodging possible, good firepower...

As for the rest, Jumpmasters have not only eliminated rebel aces but also TLT, which was largely run on generics most of the time. Stresshog even was a jouster like you like them. But it doesn't stop there. It ALSO prevents ordnance and thus jouster K's Punishers and any other bomber except the Jumpmaster from being used with Guidance chips! Because they are plain better for their price than any other bomber.

And then "If Rebels have no viable builds anymore, then good" just displays the whole bandwith of your bias.

No idea why slapping 3 copies of the same U-Boat that reauires actually no more skill to compose and to fly than any ace comp i know of should be any better than to slap together Han and Poe. There is just no difference in skill. Just lost diversity!

It's interesting to consider just how unlikely the u-boat was to ever exist. There are so many things that are just right to make it work:

- No EPT? Say goodbye to deadeye as well as your R4 Astromech synergy

- Only one torpedo slot? Your follow-up alpha strike is gone

- No R4 agromech? That means no dice mods for your torpedo attack

- No white SLoop? Your second shot would be much harder to make

- If any one of these items or the ship itself cost just one point more you couldn't fit three in 100 points

As it is, that is a very scary alpha strike that now needs to be considered whenever building a competitive list. It's popular partly because it's got the sheer dice to punch through even a Palpatine-defended ace - however that also means that any ships without those kinds of defences suffer even more.

Jousting ships have been on the back foot for a while. This brings them back with a vengeance - but at the same because it out-jousts many other jousters it reduces their viability as competitive choices even more.

As for counters? Here are a few possibilities, which ones actually work is still being decided as the meta adjusts...

- Fast ships with PS4 and boost - if you can catch a u-boat just outside range 3, then close the gap to range 1 fast, you deny them their torpedo shot. What you do next is tricky though, given the white SLoop, but if you can kill one while you're there (maybe Prockets?) it becomes a lot easier.

- Biggs - possibly the best chance for rebels, but it's not clear how you get him to tank all three shots yet...

- Swarms - if a Z or a TIE fighter can survive, even on a single hit point, it needs a follow up shot to finish off - and still had five or six mates. This is playing the numbers withva vengeance, betting your opponent runs out of torps before you run out of ships. However swarms struggle against Aces...

- Arc dodgers - again if you can avoid the shot you're probably OK

- A counter alpha strike - I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see 99 point U-boats, purely to try and get initiative in mirror matches. Other options might include TIE bombers or (perhaps optimistically) Y-wing with torps. They don't have the same awesome action efficiency of the Jumpmaster, but you can (just) fit four PS4 ships in a list, and they require two plasma torps to kill, with an outside chance at survival even then.

- Blockers - prototype A-wings could become popular...

- Degraders - There are a few ships that can interrupt the Jumpmaster's action chain. Dark Curse is well protected, but that doesn't help the rest of your list, and Omega Ace is similar, although note he can only shut down one shot. More usefully Carnor Jax has a lot of potential, although getting him to range 1 and keeping him there is tricky. For Scum Palob is pure gold - I'm actually interested to see if double U-boats + Palob becomes a thing, perhaps with 98 point initiative over triple Jumpmaster lists. The difficulty is the HWK's dial - being caught at range 3 is a death sentence.

Overall I think most people agrees the U-boats are a meta-changing addition to the game, and whether you love them or have them you'll have to deal with them. That said they're probably not as bad as the TIE phantom, and I'm sure more counters will emerge as people get to grips with them...

Absolute truth in there. The only thing i have to add is that all the counters you describe are at best a 50/50 shot for defeating U-Boats. That's where the catastrophe for the meta lies. You have no real autowin hard counters, while they themselves DO hard counter a lot of stuff. Which is the only reason why i consider them THE real problem for the meta. I mean i have squads that can defeat even PalpAces on at least a 70/30 basis. With Scouts their incredible durability and the dial combined with deadeye means that no squad i can think of or have seen has more than this 50/50 chance. Most have a lot less than that!

Even pre-nerf Phantom had autowin hard-counters...

EVERY single squad you have posted there, despite your best effort, can lose just as easily as win vs. U-Boats. And usually they have more problems against other lists which make them even less desirable to fly!

There is not a single 70/30 hard counter list to U-Boats. That's why, and i will say it here and now, which is something i have only ever done for pre-nerf Phantom, they are OP and i applaud every effort to eradicate them from the meta! They should be countered or nerfed so hard nobody wants to fly them anymore, so we can go back to actual meta diversity!

The good thing is, TLT does not seem to need a nerf anymore,

and no matter how strong the scouts seem to be, you can beat them.

Even if it requires more skill then flying 3 scouts.

But then your victories are even more satisfying.