Net decking does get old but the thing is it exists within every game, X-Wing isn't alone. I was whining to the guys the other day about how I can't hardly play a casual game on Vassal anymore cause everyone wants an ELO match. Then when you do play it's Palp Aces 2 out of every 3 games. Does get old but I accept that people are just bringing what they think is best. If someone can't accept that then maybe they just aren't a big competitor and they'd just be better off playing a more vanilla game.

Blair I think the problem is you are such a high level player that everyone wants to beat you and have evidence that they beat you (hence persistent ELO requests), and since you are one of the best in the world, they think they need to fly a proven top level list to even have a chance. You ever want to play against a non-uniform list, I have plenty.

This is pretty much why I played Blair the other night. I only want to improve as a player and getting wrecked by the best helps me more than any amount of games against less experienced players. I hope the fact I used a baron of the empire instead of a palpmobile made it a bit more interesting for him. His list has totally inspired me to go back to the Tie Swarm though. Having loads of fun with what I think is a slightly better version of his list.

EDIT: After this podcast I'm no more imformed if going for a Ini bid or taking dampeners is a better option for me.

Should a competitive tournament be engineered to make casual players have fun with bad lists?

I really don't think it should. If people want fun, casual play then there are plenty of ways to do that.

So, I look at it this way. If you want to have fun at a Store Championship or higher form or tournament, you're gonna see competitive lists. That's what those tournaments are for and are advertised as such. However you can still get 5-6 games of xwing in with whatever list you want to play, probably playing some cool people.

"If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game."

You have to admit that's a small sample size comparative to the fact that the tournament scene is growing in general.

I absolutely agree with these mentalities. I don't think tournaments should be changed or not for high level play. I also don't think they should be considered for the casual player. I was more thinking contrary to what Sable Griffon was saying about how these rulings will shun away casual players. Personally, I think casual players are already shunned away...unless they are in the process of trying to become serious tournament players. Personally, I'm totally for Intentional Draws because that's hard core tournament play. It's kind of making it obvious what's really happened to the tournament scene. It isn't about having fun and playing games. It's about winning....but still having fun when you try. I'm not saying it isn't about fun. It's really about winning. If you can all take ID's and win, then go for it.

I do disagree with the idea that 1/3 of all people who take up the game are turned away due to the competitive nature of tournament players transforming weekly game night into basically tournament play. I think that's a pretty high percentage.

I think what I dislike is that too many people (at least in my area) get caught up in trying to practice or play at the same tournament level for all their games of X-wing when you can also play a more casual version. There are times when weekly game night is pretty much just like going to a tournament in atmosphere. That's what turns people away and frustrates me.

Tournament sizes are growing not shrinking.

I really liked the point that was made that ID's aren't the real problem, that the problem is a tournament structure that rewards non-play. It shouldn't make it in your best interest to ID, and then encourage you to play against your best interest.

Because before intentional draws were legalized, you could still intentionally draw by fortressing your ships or just choosing never to fire.

Also, fly casual is dead, well at least I hope that it is. Fly casual has created a bunch of assholes that EXPECT their missed triggers to be granted to them. If we simply would have never had it in the first place that expectation wouldn't be there. We'd have a bunch of players being respectful to each other as they're denied triggers or /take Intentional Draws/. There wouldn't be an expectation that you have to grant/should grant missed triggers.

I am a competitive Win at all costs player, perhaps even someone who, "flies militant". A competitive, cutthroat game is what I want. I'm the player I would like to face, and I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

So if fly casual is dead: Good riddance. *dances around in a circle around burning Fly Casual t-shirt and fires off Kalashnikov into the air*

I often agree with you. That is until you use this rhetoric.

Good call on the tequila. I'm liking the idea of a Tatooine Sunrise:

Combine two parts tequila with two part orange juice and a splash of grenadine. Add twin Suns (two cherries); serve in a warm glass rimmed with desert sands (brown sugar).

That money was the best use of patreon dollars we've ever spent.

I completely agree that finding the right opponent is half the battle. That's what has disappointed me, I think. It's taken me a while to come around to my viewpoint, but I've seen the tournament mentality win out on game night. The general attitude is that this is X-wing and if you don't want to play with all the hot toys and the tough lists, then it's not the game for you. I don't think there are enough people that want to try things other than tournament level play on a semi-regular basis.

Well as a new player to the Xwing community (and I think... your local community to boot), I'm still in that wide eyed wonder phase. I do admit, its daunting to a ex powergamer like myself. Xwing is so well balanced, list building (like deck building) holds a strong draw.

In the end though, I got out of 40K and Fantasy Battle back in the 90s because while I loved gaming... i hated gamers... I hated the "gotta win" mentality. It takes the fun out of it. I suggest that if the game nights are too competitive, host a "no named pilot" night. Where you have to use all generics. Ill show up.

I really liked the point that was made that ID's aren't the real problem, that the problem is a tournament structure that rewards non-play. It shouldn't make it in your best interest to ID, and then encourage you to play against your best interest.

Because before intentional draws were legalized, you could still intentionally draw by fortressing your ships or just choosing never to fire.

Also, fly casual is dead, well at least I hope that it is. Fly casual has created a bunch of assholes that EXPECT their missed triggers to be granted to them. If we simply would have never had it in the first place that expectation wouldn't be there. We'd have a bunch of players being respectful to each other as they're denied triggers or /take Intentional Draws/. There wouldn't be an expectation that you have to grant/should grant missed triggers.

I am a competitive Win at all costs player, perhaps even someone who, "flies militant". A competitive, cutthroat game is what I want. I'm the player I would like to face, and I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

So if fly casual is dead: Good riddance. *dances around in a circle around burning Fly Casual t-shirt and fires off Kalashnikov into the air*

I often agree with you. That is until you use this rhetoric.

1.) I don't see how me being rude invalidates my point. Are you going to disagree with the substance of my post or just get buttmad about the style?

2.) But okay. What rhetoric should be removed in order to please the hugbox?

Did we loose or acknowledge here? I use them as a fill in and they do fine... Whenever I have tried to build a list around them, it never ends well.

It's always possible on casual night to say "You know, I'd rather not fly against Palp/Aces, do you have a different list you'd like to run?"

For some reason people just don't ever speak up about their feelings and would rather be grumpy. Even most "tourney" players unless specifically preparing for a tourney in the next week or so have a janky list they want to try out but never feel like they have a chance to. Like always, more open communication about how to improve your social contract (the game) will always make it better. You probably don't HAVE to play against a tourney list on a casual night, and no one will think poorly of you for bringing it up, I promise.

There wouldn't be an expectation that you have to grant/should grant missed triggers.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

1) There is no requirement for you to grant your opponent missed opportunities. On this we can agree. However:

2) If you are trying to trick your opponent into missing opportunities by providing them takebacks earlier on in the game, I can definitely understand why someone would get pissed. You have created an expectation that the game is more laid back. If you explain that it's turn 1 so it's ok you forgot to focus, I won't be so lenient later that's one thing. Be consistent on the takebacks you allow. But that definitely doesn't sound like what you're doing.

3) If you deny your opponent takebacks, don't ask for any yourself.

Lastly, if you need to mess with your opponent's head to win a game of plastic spaceships, I suggest you get better at plastic spaceships.

I think there is plenty room left in X-Wing for casual as well as tournament play. It's true that MetaLists get old very quickly when you played 3 of them out of your 4 games you get. But, there is still fun to be had there. You're playing X-Wing after all. And that is a reward in itself. However, there is justification for the damnation of how the tournament atmosphere can be damaging to the player and the game. I don't think this calls for a "hugbox" as you so crassly put it, but I do feel it requires some addressing from the tournament creators.

The reason why tournys are growing is because people want to play xwing and meet new people and possibly make new friends with similar interests, and play the game for fun because well, it's a **** fun game. But to elude that those folk should be discounted only because you like to "fly militant" says alot about you and about the growing schism between tourney players and the casual players and within the game itself. The game is losing an entire community of players because "fly militant" players are too close minded to suggest to themselves that other people want to play their way and that's NOT a bad thing.

I guess my diatribe-y point is that, Casual play is super on the verge of extinction within the 100 point dogfight spectrum of the game at organized events, and that flys (heh) in the face of what this game was created for in the first place. To have fun with like minded folk. We the players as well as the people organizing the events need to be aware of this and work to figure out how best to approach this problem. Because, of my own play of playing, I am prett sick of seeing Palp-Aces, and 04Y-TLTS. I still have fun, but, I feel like the game and organizers need to openly acknowledge this "flaw" in the game openly (Yes, I'm calling it a flaw) and find ways collectively to allow more zany off the wall builds to be played in these big people drawing events. Because they are fun.

Tournament sizes are growing not shrinking.

Yes, they are. I never said they weren't or that the scene isn't growing. I am saying that there are people who have quit because they get tired of the tournament and don't show. Some even quit the game. I'm not saying there is a problem with tournaments, either. I'm all for them. I just don't think they are for casual players anymore. That's OK, too. I also don't think that tournament style is the only style of X-wing. Some people hate tournament style, but love other, more casual styles.

... I hated the "gotta win" mentality. It takes the fun out of it. I suggest that if the game nights are too competitive, host a "no named pilot" night. Where you have to use all generics. Ill show up.

Every Thursday night at PBKW has always attempted to be a fun night. I'm there trying to play fun games, missions, campaigns, and epic. Not everyone there that night is into it, but I usually have a good time.

What I do hate, though, is when people who are only into tournament style games tells me that I should just find a different game because I don't like tournament style. There are a lot of other ways to play the game that I have a great time with.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

You have now earned your Villainy title for taking Inertial Dampeners.

TIE SWARM OP, NEEDS NERF!

I get down to my local Gaming club as much as real

Life lets me - some of the guys fly to practice their tournament list whilst other just come to

Fly causal lists - the thing to remember is that flying against causal list will test you as much as the

Hard core lists - prob more as the causal lists can throw ideas or wacky things ag you that might

Throw you.

The main thing is to enjoy the game and respect each other - it's a game and having fun both sides

Is the main reason to play - if either side isn't having fun then it's not worth it. Yes you can be wiped off the

Board and totally tabled but if it done cool and friendly with my opposite number not getting in my face and

Been a total tool, then I'm cool - my last game my dengar got a ghost in its face at range one - he rolled

Four crits and despite dengar been done to one health and not been able to return fire due to the crits I gained

Both sides had a laugh about his red hot dice and my poor green dice - it's all how people play and respect

Each other.

Cool pod cast - less said about the attempt at an English accent - we don't all talk like **** van dike in Mary poppins or

Call each other governor .

Keep up the good work fella s

If people want to do English accents watch this u tube video

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

emphasis mine.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

definition of polite-

definition of trickery-

the practice of deception.

definition of deceit-

concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.

"Man. That guy manipulated me and made something I enjoy into a totally rotten experience. But he sure was polite about it!"

Pretty sure we can draw our own conclusions about whether a player who uses trickery and deceit is often considered polite or not.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

Those stories were done without any trolling. They were incidents that happened in games where I was polite to my opponent and then they got angry with me. The one time I let my opponent miss all his action opportunities and then denied him them when he closed to range 1 of my 5 Alpha Squadrons my opponent wasn't angry with me actually. I just stated what happened during the battle, then an argument escalated on the forums with a bunch of fly casuals.

So no, I do not deliberately troll opponents in games.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

emphasis mine.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

definition of polite-

having or showing behavior that is respectful and considerate of other people.

definition of trickery-

the practice of deception.

definition of deceit-

concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.

"Man. That guy manipulated me and made something I enjoy into a totally rotten experience. But he sure was polite about it!"

Pretty sure we can draw our own conclusions about whether a player who uses trickery and deceit is often considered polite or not.

I ambushed someone in a competetive war game. Was I supposed to hold my opponent's hand as I did it?

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

emphasis mine.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

definition of polite-

having or showing behavior that is respectful and considerate of other people.

definition of trickery-the practice of deception.

definition of deceit-

concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.

"Man. That guy manipulated me and made something I enjoy into a totally rotten experience. But he sure was polite about it!"

Pretty sure we can draw our own conclusions about whether a player who uses trickery and deceit is often considered polite or not.

I ambushed someone in a competetive war game. Was I supposed to hold my opponent's hand as I did it?

No. But you should be consistent about takebacks

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

emphasis mine.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

definition of polite-

having or showing behavior that is respectful and considerate of other people.

definition of trickery-the practice of deception.

definition of deceit-

concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.

"Man. That guy manipulated me and made something I enjoy into a totally rotten experience. But he sure was polite about it!"

Pretty sure we can draw our own conclusions about whether a player who uses trickery and deceit is often considered polite or not.

I ambushed someone in a competetive war game. Was I supposed to hold my opponent's hand as I did it?

No. But you should be consistent about takebacks

I do not have to consent. When you miss a trigger it's up to your opponent to consent to it being performed.

This is what I'm talking about. Fly Casual has created the expectation that I have to consent to my opponent performing missed opportunities. You're proving my point, right here in this thread. Because you have a fly casual attitude, you have the expectation that if I allow one missed trigger, I have to allow the rest. That is nowhere in the rules.

Has it ever occurred to you that you are simply taking advantage of Fly Casual? In a different manner than most, but still benefitting from it? According to you, your favorite strategies simply wouldn't work against a WAAC type player.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

emphasis mine.

I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

So all those stories you tell about deliberately trolling your opponents are, what, examples of impeccable decorum?

definition of polite-having or showing behavior that is respectful and considerate of other people.

definition of trickery-the practice of deception.

definition of deceit-concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.

"Man. That guy manipulated me and made something I enjoy into a totally rotten experience. But he sure was polite about it!"

Pretty sure we can draw our own conclusions about whether a player who uses trickery and deceit is often considered polite or not.

I ambushed someone in a competetive war game. Was I supposed to hold my opponent's hand as I did it?

No. But you should be consistent about takebacks

I do not have to consent. When you miss a trigger it's up to your opponent to consent to it being performed.

This is what I'm talking about. Fly Casual has created the expectation that I have to consent to my opponent performing missed opportunities. You're proving my point, right here in this thread. Because you have a fly casual attitude, you have the expectation that if I allow one missed trigger, I have to allow the rest. That is nowhere in the rules.

I never said that you should allow all takebacks if you allow one. I said you should be consistent. If you allow minor takebacks (dude forgot to focus turn 1) I don't expect you to allow someone to barrel roll out of arc when the game winning shot is lined up and they've gone and done something else. I'm not telling you to hold your opponents hand. Personally I'm cool with some takebacks as long as nothing has moved/been measured in most of my games (the I boost, declare barrel roll, oh that won't get me out of arc, rewind barrel roll boost out of arc definitely makes me unhappy). I do expect a certain amount of competence out of both parties.

Your statement implies that your takeback policy is based on letting them do whatever until you can $!#^ them over for maximum effect. That's what I take issue with.

And I'm confused as to how valuing consistency means I have a 'fly casual' attitude, whatever that means. If you want to play a super tight game with no takebacks, I'm down with that.

I really liked the point that was made that ID's aren't the real problem, that the problem is a tournament structure that rewards non-play. It shouldn't make it in your best interest to ID, and then encourage you to play against your best interest.

Because before intentional draws were legalized, you could still intentionally draw by fortressing your ships or just choosing never to fire.

Also, fly casual is dead, well at least I hope that it is. Fly casual has created a bunch of assholes that EXPECT their missed triggers to be granted to them. If we simply would have never had it in the first place that expectation wouldn't be there. We'd have a bunch of players being respectful to each other as they're denied triggers or /take Intentional Draws/. There wouldn't be an expectation that you have to grant/should grant missed triggers.

I am a competitive Win at all costs player, perhaps even someone who, "flies militant". A competitive, cutthroat game is what I want. I'm the player I would like to face, and I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

So if fly casual is dead: Good riddance. *dances around in a circle around burning Fly Casual t-shirt and fires off Kalashnikov into the air*

I often agree with you. That is until you use this rhetoric.

1.) I don't see how me being rude invalidates my point. Are you going to disagree with the substance of my post or just get buttmad about the style?

2.) But okay. What rhetoric should be removed in order to please the hugbox?

I think this has been covered in other posts. But using phrases like buttmad and hugbox to intentionally arouse heated discussion is where I was going.

Like I said I often agree with your points but you don't make it easy to.

...all I wanted to say was that I think tournaments have already edged out the casual gamer....except for those that know they are just going to play at the bottom tables and like playing a bunch of games in one day.

If people want to do English accents watch this u tube video

Someone indicated they'd listen to the podcast if I did an english accent. There are lots I would do for a download I guess.