I've been playing since Super Bowl weekend here in Las Vegas. Most of my games have been monthly tournaments, a couple store champs and the Cancer Tourney. I place in the bottom every time as I haven't played against as many lists and I'm still trying to find a list I love. Every experience has been great, I love the game and the community out here at least is fantastic. People are patient, fun and the lists are diverse. During the cancer tourney I didn't play the same list twice. Casual vs Competitive depends solely on the player. Me I'm casual every time do I want to play well absolutely, but not at the expense of the experience. X-wing is a game period. Games are meant to be played for fun. If you're not having fun then perhaps a different game. The swag is fun but at the end of the day doesn't change that its just a game. every match I fly against whatever the person has chosen to fly and and against the level they play. If I win, cool, if not thanks for the match it was fun. Be the player you want to play with and against and watch the impact it can have in a positive way on your area.

I can't like this post more. Keep on having fun dude!

The more discussions like this I read, the more I'm thankful for the local group's general attitude. Generally very nice laid back people, who have the swag to prove that winning and being laid back (with quirky lists) are not incompatible.

I wouldn't love only facing meta lists, and I did face lots of Poes early on, but seeing the lists that made it to the top often since I started (e.g. Deci+Punisher and a scum 2Z-2Y-HWK) is really nice to see. Biggs walks the Ghosts would have been fun to see in action, but Dany didn't break it out for local games, just for the Rochester Regionals (that I've seen).

I'm a competitive casual, it's all about fun and playing, though winning is a nice bonus!

I actually am excited to see Phantom Shuttle lists. Paul had a good suggestion for that.

Sounds like you did well for the community and now need some specialization. There's nothing wrong with having a casual night, but you really gotta tell people or they'll just play the more fun version of X wing. (hint: it's the competitive one )

Communication is really important, yeah. I don't know who should have the burden of speaking up, but when you start up a match with someone you don't know, it's not a bad idea to feel things out a little bit before you start... i.e. how competitive is this person, are they practicing for a tournament or flying something for fun.

The easiest way to not have a fun game is if the two players are looking for completely different game experiences. A hard-core tournament player will not get much (I hope) out of stomping a new player just flying for fun, and vice versa. Now, sometimes the new player won't mind getting stomped, but sometimes they will mind, and have a negative play experience.

Just talk to your opponent before you play. If you're in a tournament, obviously it's fine to assume everyone is a competitive player. But in pickup games, take a second and find out who you're playing against.

What the heck is a Shawn Cassidy 45?

What the heck is a Shawn Cassidy 45?

https://www.google.com/search?q=shaun+cassidy+45&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjohPuOj6PMAhUKz2MKHeCLCtAQ_AUIBygB&biw=1024&bih=1195

Net decking does get old but the thing is it exists within every game, X-Wing isn't alone. I was whining to the guys the other day about how I can't hardly play a casual game on Vassal anymore cause everyone wants an ELO match. Then when you do play it's Palp Aces 2 out of every 3 games. Does get old but I accept that people are just bringing what they think is best. If someone can't accept that then maybe they just aren't a big competitor and they'd just be better off playing a more vanilla game.

Net decking does get old but the thing is it exists within every game, X-Wing isn't alone. I was whining to the guys the other day about how I can't hardly play a casual game on Vassal anymore cause everyone wants an ELO match. Then when you do play it's Palp Aces 2 out of every 3 games. Does get old but I accept that people are just bringing what they think is best. If someone can't accept that then maybe they just aren't a big competitor and they'd just be better off playing a more vanilla game.

Ideally the game would be balanced better so the same 5% - 10% of pilots aren't the only viable choices.

I disagree with that belief if you look at listjuggler you can see there's a lot more variance in ships being used, even when you narrow to ones that made the cut. Yes some are horribly overcosted/underpowered but counting Imperial Veterans the only ships that see almost no competitive play are HWK's, Imperial Firesprays, Scyks, Starvipers, and Kihraxz's. Yes there could certainly be better balance, I think not giving the highest ps ships the best abilities would help but I would argue that more than 10% can win large tournaments.

At the risk of attacking a straw man, not all "net-listers" are "win at all costs" players or even players for whom winning is the biggest component of happiness in the game.

I started playing three months ago, so I'm still very new to everything. I spent my first month learning to remember to take actions, etc., but then spent my second month playing Paul Heaver's worlds list, then spent much of the last month playing triple jumpmasters, and just recently began my foray into Palp aces. I chose those lists precisely because they are strong lists. As a new player, I want to learn what part of the game is flying skill, what part is luck, and what part is squad building. It has really helped me to eliminate one of those variables. As a result, I've gone into games knowing that if I lose, maybe 95% of the time it's because I was out-flown.

As I grow in my abilities, I'll certainly begin experimenting more with a variety of lists. Lord knows there's no shortage of what I would like to fly. But for now, I get better by (1) practicing the same list repeatedly, and (2) playing better players. Having a strong list has allowed me to win a few tournament games, and being able to win some tournament games has allowed me to play - and even beat - some world-class players. Thus the cycle continues and don't look now but I'm having lots of fun.

So to the more experienced players who might get tired of running into the same 6-7 lists over and over, and to those who fear that strong lists might cannabalize casual game nights, realize that this just might be part of the process for new players learning the game.

Net decking does get old but the thing is it exists within every game, X-Wing isn't alone. I was whining to the guys the other day about how I can't hardly play a casual game on Vassal anymore cause everyone wants an ELO match. Then when you do play it's Palp Aces 2 out of every 3 games. Does get old but I accept that people are just bringing what they think is best. If someone can't accept that then maybe they just aren't a big competitor and they'd just be better off playing a more vanilla game.

Do you mean play another game entirely, as in not X-wing? I definitely don't agree with that idea... It's not that I don't think people should bring strong lists or play competitively, but maybe there should be outlets for play that aren't being min-maxed the way tournament-style games are. A good example is Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. People play that and try hard, but there isn't the same selective pressure that's being felt in competitive play and people can play creatively without losing all the time, or feeling like they are at a disadvantage.

I think that kind of freedom to play creatively is really dampened in tournaments, and increasingly in pickup games (which are used to practice for tournaments). The metagame (and the inherent efficiency of the different ships in a standard game) dictates so much in terms of how you need to build your list. Yes, you can practice the hell out of an oddball or non-optimal list and do OK or win, and there are people out there who are really creative and ace pilots (Aaron Bonnar for example) but I think it's kind of a shame that you need to put in so much extra effort and risk just so you can be viable with a creative list.

I think building your own list is about half of the fun of X-wing, and I want people to feel like they can do that and not worry so much about being at a disadvantage.

To me, one good solution is just talking before you start a game and figuring out what you want out of that game. Tournament practice or casual fun, generally speaking. And if you have a mismatch, you can either play anyway, find another matchup, or maybe the guy looking for practice runs something a little lower key. Completely up to the players. But I really don't like the idea of there being no place for casual players who don't like being killed by competitive players running hardcore lists.

Net decking does get old but the thing is it exists within every game, X-Wing isn't alone. I was whining to the guys the other day about how I can't hardly play a casual game on Vassal anymore cause everyone wants an ELO match. Then when you do play it's Palp Aces 2 out of every 3 games. Does get old but I accept that people are just bringing what they think is best. If someone can't accept that then maybe they just aren't a big competitor and they'd just be better off playing a more vanilla game.

Do you mean play another game entirely, as in not X-wing? I definitely don't agree with that idea... It's not that I don't think people should bring strong lists or play competitively, but maybe there should be outlets for play that aren't being min-maxed the way tournament-style games are. A good example is Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. People play that and try hard, but there isn't the same selective pressure that's being felt in competitive play and people can play creatively without losing all the time, or feeling like they are at a disadvantage.

I think that kind of freedom to play creatively is really dampened in tournaments, and increasingly in pickup games (which are used to practice for tournaments). The metagame (and the inherent efficiency of the different ships in a standard game) dictates so much in terms of how you need to build your list. Yes, you can practice the hell out of an oddball or non-optimal list and do OK or win, and there are people out there who are really creative and ace pilots (Aaron Bonnar for example) but I think it's kind of a shame that you need to put in so much extra effort and risk just so you can be viable with a creative list.

I think building your own list is about half of the fun of X-wing, and I want people to feel like they can do that and not worry so much about being at a disadvantage.

To me, one good solution is just talking before you start a game and figuring out what you want out of that game. Tournament practice or casual fun, generally speaking. And if you have a mismatch, you can either play anyway, find another matchup, or maybe the guy looking for practice runs something a little lower key. Completely up to the players. But I really don't like the idea of there being no place for casual players who don't like being killed by competitive players running hardcore lists.

Good post and I agree with some of your points. I was referring to chadwick saying some people have been pushed out of X-Wing because they get tired of playing or having to play a select few number of lists to compete. First of all, the level of competition you want yourself to be at is all dictated by you. Sometimes I have fun in bringing a quirky list to a tournament and seeing how well I can do with it, in fact I have way more fun doing that than I do playing in a big event. Nothing says you have to go to an event with the idea of all or nothing. I certainly didn't expect to win my first few tournaments, I was just happy to have found a competitive outlet that could replace some of the more physical activities I couldn't do anymore.

Second of all, you don't have to "practice the hell" out of an oddball list to have success with it. Aaron only had roughly a dozen games under his belt with that triple k-wing list when he went took it worlds. And he's by far not the only person to have success with lists that are way off meta. Sable went 4-2 in both flights the year before running 4 bombers and a doomshuttle. Froggies and Jonathan made the cut with Panic Attack which no one else had thought to try. Biophysical got second in a regional running 2 defenders ffs. Now, yes there is certainly some risk involved with bringing something like that, but that's part of the fun in it. Of course there's no risk in bringing a proven meta list, that's why you bring it! But if you have some creativity and aren't afraid of being embarrassed then there's plenty of opportunity to succeed with something different.

the whole casual vs competitive play is so easily solved. If you want your local game night to not be about competitive play then change the format, either change it from 100pts vs 100pts or make it so winning doesn't follow the same conditions as tournament play.

For instance.

Instead of a 100vs100 dog fight, have differing themes to run.

150pts large ships only

50 points no unique pilots

35pts one ship each

100 points no faction restrictions.

Just as a few quick examples. Just use the format X points, X Condition.

Instead of winning be determined by MoV and Scoring, make some objectives.

Treasure Hunting - Put a token on each asteroid/debris field a player places. These tokens are worth X points each. To collect a token you need to LAND on the obstacle or blow up a ship holding a token. Who ever has the most tokens at the end Wins. If you fly off the board with a token you keep it but lose the ship. You can even mix it up by having some tokens be duds.

Escort - Each Player gets a Lamda Shuttle, it's weapons are dissabled, but it gets sensor jammer and a captive (factionless rebel captive) Who ever destroys the other shuttle first wins.

Grand Melee - 40 points per player, 4 players per game (one on each side of the 3x3 mat) free for all. Survivor Wins.

Turrets are OP - All Ships treated as having a primary weapon turret

Junkyard Fight - Players Bid Squad points on ships with a highest bidder mentality. Limit the number of ships with a unlimited number of several basic ships (such as TIES, T-65 X wings, and Headhunters). No Faction restrictions. All ships are the lowest PS Generic that is offered. For instance if two players are bidding on the only Imperial firespray (base cost 33pts) in the pot one of them might have to pay 35, 36, or even 40 points for it depending on how badly they wanted it.

These are just examples i thought of while typing this out.

The point is if you do not want to play in a "Competitive Tournament Environment" then change that environment. Change the squad building, or the Victory Rules. Change the number of players, or the size of the mat. IF you are just playing for fun then don't play a 100vs100 dogfight, because that is the competitive tournament environment.

Not one compliment for the British accent I said I'd do horribly...

the whole casual vs competitive play is so easily solved. If you want your local game night to not be about competitive play then change the format, either change it from 100pts vs 100pts or make it so winning doesn't follow the same conditions as tournament play.

For instance.

Instead of a 100vs100 dog fight, have differing themes to run.

150pts large ships only

50 points no unique pilots

35pts one ship each

100 points no faction restrictions.

Just as a few quick examples. Just use the format X points, X Condition.

Instead of winning be determined by MoV and Scoring, make some objectives.

Treasure Hunting - Put a token on each asteroid/debris field a player places. These tokens are worth X points each. To collect a token you need to LAND on the obstacle or blow up a ship holding a token. Who ever has the most tokens at the end Wins. If you fly off the board with a token you keep it but lose the ship. You can even mix it up by having some tokens be duds.

Escort - Each Player gets a Lamda Shuttle, it's weapons are dissabled, but it gets sensor jammer and a captive (factionless rebel captive) Who ever destroys the other shuttle first wins.

Grand Melee - 40 points per player, 4 players per game (one on each side of the 3x3 mat) free for all. Survivor Wins.

Turrets are OP - All Ships treated as having a primary weapon turret

Junkyard Fight - Players Bid Squad points on ships with a highest bidder mentality. Limit the number of ships with a unlimited number of several basic ships (such as TIES, T-65 X wings, and Headhunters). No Faction restrictions. All ships are the lowest PS Generic that is offered. For instance if two players are bidding on the only Imperial firespray (base cost 33pts) in the pot one of them might have to pay 35, 36, or even 40 points for it depending on how badly they wanted it.

These are just examples i thought of while typing this out.

The point is if you do not want to play in a "Competitive Tournament Environment" then change that environment. Change the squad building, or the Victory Rules. Change the number of players, or the size of the mat. IF you are just playing for fun then don't play a 100vs100 dogfight, because that is the competitive tournament environment.

Can I steal this?

I didn't get second in a Regional with the two Defenders, I lost in the semifinal round. I did lose to the eventual winner, however, maybe that's where the confusion stemmed from.

For the record, though, I did practice like hell with that list.

the whole casual vs competitive play is so easily solved. If you want your local game night to not be about competitive play then change the format, either change it from 100pts vs 100pts or make it so winning doesn't follow the same conditions as tournament play.

For instance.

Instead of a 100vs100 dog fight, have differing themes to run.

150pts large ships only

50 points no unique pilots

35pts one ship each

100 points no faction restrictions.

Just as a few quick examples. Just use the format X points, X Condition.

Instead of winning be determined by MoV and Scoring, make some objectives.

Treasure Hunting - Put a token on each asteroid/debris field a player places. These tokens are worth X points each. To collect a token you need to LAND on the obstacle or blow up a ship holding a token. Who ever has the most tokens at the end Wins. If you fly off the board with a token you keep it but lose the ship. You can even mix it up by having some tokens be duds.

Escort - Each Player gets a Lamda Shuttle, it's weapons are dissabled, but it gets sensor jammer and a captive (factionless rebel captive) Who ever destroys the other shuttle first wins.

Grand Melee - 40 points per player, 4 players per game (one on each side of the 3x3 mat) free for all. Survivor Wins.

Turrets are OP - All Ships treated as having a primary weapon turret

Junkyard Fight - Players Bid Squad points on ships with a highest bidder mentality. Limit the number of ships with a unlimited number of several basic ships (such as TIES, T-65 X wings, and Headhunters). No Faction restrictions. All ships are the lowest PS Generic that is offered. For instance if two players are bidding on the only Imperial firespray (base cost 33pts) in the pot one of them might have to pay 35, 36, or even 40 points for it depending on how badly they wanted it.

These are just examples i thought of while typing this out.

The point is if you do not want to play in a "Competitive Tournament Environment" then change that environment. Change the squad building, or the Victory Rules. Change the number of players, or the size of the mat. IF you are just playing for fun then don't play a 100vs100 dogfight, because that is the competitive tournament environment.

Can I steal this?

Of course =)

Good post and I agree with some of your points. I was referring to chadwick saying some people have been pushed out of X-Wing because they get tired of playing or having to play a select few number of lists to compete. First of all, the level of competition you want yourself to be at is all dictated by you. Sometimes I have fun in bringing a quirky list to a tournament and seeing how well I can do with it, in fact I have way more fun doing that than I do playing in a big event. Nothing says you have to go to an event with the idea of all or nothing. I certainly didn't expect to win my first few tournaments, I was just happy to have found a competitive outlet that could replace some of the more physical activities I couldn't do anymore.

No, I agree with what Babaganoosh is saying. My whole original post was saying that there is a difference between Casual X-wing and Tournament X-wing. I feel that Tournament X-wing has already pushed out the Casual player. That's why I didn't agree with Sable Griffon's comment about his concerns for pushing out the casual player from tournaments. I say it's already done.

I was then talking about how hard it is for some people to find casual games as everyone is always so focused on tournaments.

Froggies and Aaron are good counter-examples, but in a way I think they are exceptions that prove the rule. That is to say, that very accomplished players like them can do well with creative lists, partly because they are so **** good in the first place... but the same doesn't necessarily apply to a more average player. Other things are in play too; the lists they run are really quite good, and because their lists are unique and unknown they have the advantage of the element of surprise in a matchup. Very few people set up across from Aaron's three K-wings and 1: realized how dangerous they were, and 2: knew how the list was going to fly. That worked to Aaron's advantage and it's an advantage that 'oddball' lists have over standard lists in general. But Aaron brought a lot of X-wing experience and skill to the table, too. I'm just saying we can't expect everyone to be like Aaron, right? He's an awesome X-wing role model, but there's always going to be a metagame at the end of the day.

I just think that the metagame pushes list building in a particular direction. There are always top lists, and if I as a competitive tournament player decide to bring something different from the top lists, there is an inherent risk to that decision. Or, at the very least, there is the impression of risk. And that's what I think stifles a good amount of creativity.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not trying to demonize anyone, least of all high-caliber players (like yourself). It takes a lot of skill and (more importantly) hard work to be a top X-wing player; Paul Heaver has proved that two times now. I'm just saying that it may do the community a lot of good to make room for casual players who don't want to play the high-octane version of the game. There's a million ways to do it, but the first step is recognizing that the game has a lot of potential outside of tournament-style play.

I didn't get second in a Regional with the two Defenders, I lost in the semifinal round. I did lose to the eventual winner, however, maybe that's where the confusion stemmed from.

For the record, though, I did practice like hell with that list.

You're actually exactly who I was thinking of when I made that remark, haha.

At the risk of making an obnoxiously long post, I wanted to address this too -

This sounds like a great way to teach yourself how to be a competitive x-wing player. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your approach to learning the game; I might recommend it to new players, actually.

But only if their goal is to be a strong competitive player. Not everyone gets into X-wing because it has a good tournament dynamic. Plenty of people buy in just because it is a solid star wars game, and they may or may not be interested in the tournament scene. I think there is more to the game than the tournament scene, and players who want to play the game non-competitively, or who just aren't interested in tournaments shouldn't feel like the only way to play is to play at that competitive tournament level. And I think that it's easy to get the impression around here that tournament play is the only worthwhile way to play x-wing.

the whole casual vs competitive play is so easily solved. If you want your local game night to not be about competitive play then change the format, either change it from 100pts vs 100pts or make it so winning doesn't follow the same conditions as tournament play.

For instance.

Instead of a 100vs100 dog fight, have differing themes to run.

150pts large ships only

50 points no unique pilots

35pts one ship each

100 points no faction restrictions.

Just as a few quick examples. Just use the format X points, X Condition.

Instead of winning be determined by MoV and Scoring, make some objectives.

Treasure Hunting - Put a token on each asteroid/debris field a player places. These tokens are worth X points each. To collect a token you need to LAND on the obstacle or blow up a ship holding a token. Who ever has the most tokens at the end Wins. If you fly off the board with a token you keep it but lose the ship. You can even mix it up by having some tokens be duds.

Escort - Each Player gets a Lamda Shuttle, it's weapons are dissabled, but it gets sensor jammer and a captive (factionless rebel captive) Who ever destroys the other shuttle first wins.

Grand Melee - 40 points per player, 4 players per game (one on each side of the 3x3 mat) free for all. Survivor Wins.

Turrets are OP - All Ships treated as having a primary weapon turret

Junkyard Fight - Players Bid Squad points on ships with a highest bidder mentality. Limit the number of ships with a unlimited number of several basic ships (such as TIES, T-65 X wings, and Headhunters). No Faction restrictions. All ships are the lowest PS Generic that is offered. For instance if two players are bidding on the only Imperial firespray (base cost 33pts) in the pot one of them might have to pay 35, 36, or even 40 points for it depending on how badly they wanted it.

These are just examples i thought of while typing this out.

The point is if you do not want to play in a "Competitive Tournament Environment" then change that environment. Change the squad building, or the Victory Rules. Change the number of players, or the size of the mat. IF you are just playing for fun then don't play a 100vs100 dogfight, because that is the competitive tournament environment.

Can I steal this?

Of course =)

The reason I ask is this is the sort of thing we want for the aces league season 3.

I'll be looking forward to it. a friend and myself are working for league ideas for the Indianapolis area after regional season is over, and for general fun nights. 100v100 dogfights are great, i love them, but sometimes you don't want to worry about tournament rules, and just fire imaginary lasers with tiny plastic spaceships for ***** and giggles. We have a few set, a lot of rough ideas, and then some really crazy concepts such as a meta game with planetary control, and a overarching campaign. Though much of it is just in a brainstorming format until regionals are finished in the area.

If you need any help refining ideas, or coming up with alternative playsets for the Aces League, I would be more then happy to help. If not (too many chefs in the kitchen can ruin the meal) feel free to use what i posted =)

the whole casual vs competitive play is so easily solved. If you want your local game night to not be about competitive play then change the format, either change it from 100pts vs 100pts or make it so winning doesn't follow the same conditions as tournament play.

For instance.

...

Can I steal this?

Of course =)

The reason I ask is this is the sort of thing we want for the aces league season 3.

What kind of stuff are you looking for? There's a lot of stuff out there on Mission Control that was actually written for tournaments. And if there's no 100 point restriction, that opens things up considerably. I could definitely make some recommendations if you're looking for ideas.

I really liked the point that was made that ID's aren't the real problem, that the problem is a tournament structure that rewards non-play. It shouldn't make it in your best interest to ID, and then encourage you to play against your best interest.

Because before intentional draws were legalized, you could still intentionally draw by fortressing your ships or just choosing never to fire.

Also, fly casual is dead, well at least I hope that it is. Fly casual has created a bunch of assholes that EXPECT their missed triggers to be granted to them. If we simply would have never had it in the first place that expectation wouldn't be there. We'd have a bunch of players being respectful to each other as they're denied triggers or /take Intentional Draws/. There wouldn't be an expectation that you have to grant/should grant missed triggers.

I am a competitive Win at all costs player, perhaps even someone who, "flies militant". A competitive, cutthroat game is what I want. I'm the player I would like to face, and I'm generally polite (at least I hope I come across as polite) during games.

I may employ trickery to get you to think it's okay to miss all your action opportunities and then hold it against you once it benefits me, but I will not call you a douchebag or an ******* or throw a temper tantrum during a game. I try my best to be polite and I try my best to follow the rules and that's all that's needed.

So if fly casual is dead: Good riddance. *dances around in a circle around burning Fly Casual t-shirt and fires off Kalashnikov into the air*

Net decking does get old but the thing is it exists within every game, X-Wing isn't alone. I was whining to the guys the other day about how I can't hardly play a casual game on Vassal anymore cause everyone wants an ELO match. Then when you do play it's Palp Aces 2 out of every 3 games. Does get old but I accept that people are just bringing what they think is best. If someone can't accept that then maybe they just aren't a big competitor and they'd just be better off playing a more vanilla game.

Blair I think the problem is you are such a high level player that everyone wants to beat you and have evidence that they beat you (hence persistent ELO requests), and since you are one of the best in the world, they think they need to fly a proven top level list to even have a chance. You ever want to play against a non-uniform list, I have plenty.

As far as ELO goes on vassal, I get a bit irked when players ask me for a "casual" ELO game. Why can't we just play a regular game? Overall I think ELO should apply to competitive vassal tournaments if the TO wants it, but other than that, I'd prefer it not apply, including league games. Not that my rating is any good anyways, but I really like experimenting and running some new things in league games, so it comes as a bit of a bummer that my rating continues to plummet as I experiment and am paired up against proven meta lists time and time again. Not that I have a problem with that. When I experiment I like playing those lists because if it can't compete with them obviously it's not good enough. But I just have a problem that in a league format I am being penalized for experimenting. But that's kind of beside the point. Not sure why I decided to vent here ha.

Good call on the tequila. I'm liking the idea of a Tatooine Sunrise:

Combine two parts tequila with two part orange juice and a splash of grenadine. Add twin Suns (two cherries); serve in a warm glass rimmed with desert sands (brown sugar).