Sit down with Kelvan, Antigrapist, Sozin, Sable Gryphon, BlairBunke and special guest Paul Heaver as they cover the latest in the world of X-Wing, including the contentious topic of the week.

http://teamcovenant.com/star-wars-x-wing/scum-and-villainy-episode-30-whats-all-the-fuss-over-inertial-dampeners#comments

direct link:

http://media.blubrry.com/teamcovenant/p/scumvillainy.podbean.com/mf/web/gecuu8/episode30_IDs_final.mp3

Cliffs?

What is up with inertial dampeners? I'm just sitting here, stressed out, wondering about it

Cliffs?

What is up with inertial dampeners? I'm just sitting here, stressed out, wondering about it

A+ Game Reference Pun.

You don't need to see his inertial dampeners.

I'm just finishing this podcast. I'm near the end and hearing you guys talk about the ID, Fly Casual, and all the discussion about tournaments. Listening to Sable Griffon talk about how the latest rulings will keep casual players out.....I have to say that it's already happened. I've known so many people that just won't go to tournaments for X-wing because they just aren't fun. The type of lists you need to bring to tournaments just aren't fun to many people. It's not that people aren't nice, but they just get sick of either having to fly a specific type of list, always face the same lists again and again, or just get tired of losing for taking what they consider a fun list. I think the level of competition at tournaments is high enough that there are numerous people that don't have fun there. I think the casual gamer is already excluded from the event. A new player must edge up to play a certain type of a game if they want to go to tournaments. New players just need to either change to become tournament players or eventually give up for not having fun.

If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game. Weekly game night turns into people practicing for tournaments and casual gamers get edged out. I think about 1/3 of all the people that I know that have gotten into X-wing feel this way.

I do totally agree with the Fly Casual mentality deals with you as a player and you should totally be a nice guy when it comes to tournament play. It is a much better environment than other game systems (i.e. Warhammer).

I haven't listened yet. I'm anticipating that Kelvan really upped his "GALACTIC HOLONET!!!" game after the April Fools Switcheroo. I hope I am not disappointed.

Should a competitive tournament be engineered to make casual players have fun with bad lists?

I really don't think it should. If people want fun, casual play then there are plenty of ways to do that.

I haven't listened yet. I'm anticipating that Kelvan really upped his "GALACTIC HOLONET!!!" game after the April Fools Switcheroo. I hope I am not disappointed.

100% True. Was not adequate before. I want to be like the guys on Epic Rap Battles and it just gets harder and harder to figure out what i'm saying.

I'm just finishing this podcast. I'm near the end and hearing you guys talk about the ID, Fly Casual, and all the discussion about tournaments. Listening to Sable Griffon talk about how the latest rulings will keep casual players out.....I have to say that it's already happened. I've known so many people that just won't go to tournaments for X-wing because they just aren't fun. The type of lists you need to bring to tournaments just aren't fun to many people. It's not that people aren't nice, but they just get sick of either having to fly a specific type of list, always face the same lists again and again, or just get tired of losing for taking what they consider a fun list. I think the level of competition at tournaments is high enough that there are numerous people that don't have fun there. I think the casual gamer is already excluded from the event. A new player must edge up to play a certain type of a game if they want to go to tournaments. New players just need to either change to become tournament players or eventually give up for not having fun.

If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game. Weekly game night turns into people practicing for tournaments and casual gamers get edged out. I think about 1/3 of all the people that I know that have gotten into X-wing feel this way.

I do totally agree with the Fly Casual mentality deals with you as a player and you should totally be a nice guy when it comes to tournament play. It is a much better environment than other game systems (i.e. Warhammer).

So, I look at it this way. If you want to have fun at a Store Championship or higher form or tournament, you're gonna see competitive lists. That's what those tournaments are for and are advertised as such. However you can still get 5-6 games of xwing in with whatever list you want to play, probably playing some cool people.

"If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game."

You have to admit that's a small sample size comparative to the fact that the tournament scene is growing in general.

I'm just finishing this podcast. I'm near the end and hearing you guys talk about the ID, Fly Casual, and all the discussion about tournaments. Listening to Sable Griffon talk about how the latest rulings will keep casual players out.....I have to say that it's already happened. I've known so many people that just won't go to tournaments for X-wing because they just aren't fun. The type of lists you need to bring to tournaments just aren't fun to many people. It's not that people aren't nice, but they just get sick of either having to fly a specific type of list, always face the same lists again and again, or just get tired of losing for taking what they consider a fun list. I think the level of competition at tournaments is high enough that there are numerous people that don't have fun there. I think the casual gamer is already excluded from the event. A new player must edge up to play a certain type of a game if they want to go to tournaments. New players just need to either change to become tournament players or eventually give up for not having fun.

If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game. Weekly game night turns into people practicing for tournaments and casual gamers get edged out. I think about 1/3 of all the people that I know that have gotten into X-wing feel this way.

I do totally agree with the Fly Casual mentality deals with you as a player and you should totally be a nice guy when it comes to tournament play. It is a much better environment than other game systems (i.e. Warhammer).

Should a competitive tournament be engineered to make casual players have fun with bad lists?

I really don't think it should. If people want fun, casual play then there are plenty of ways to do that.

I think this is going to be a tricky question that needs to be addressed by each local player base. Regionals are not the place to bring your Triple HWK list and expect to win games. Weekly game nights shouldn't be nothing but Palp Aces Seal Clubbing the new players.

Don't like the extreme min-maxing of top-level play? Design and run some game styles that reward or force some kind of funky twist on list building. I would love to try some sort of King-of-the-Hill mechanic where one player keeps playing the same list until someone beats them. You get a point for each successful defense. Good way to start learning how to counter certain lists and play styles.

I think one can be competitive at SC/Regional level events with a non-meta squad, but it takes some work, and you probably can't just decide your list at the last minute. You've got to figure out how your list will have a shot at each of the powerhouses. There's a huge array of squads that can take shots from outside the spotlight.

I'm just finishing this podcast. I'm near the end and hearing you guys talk about the ID, Fly Casual, and all the discussion about tournaments. Listening to Sable Griffon talk about how the latest rulings will keep casual players out.....I have to say that it's already happened. I've known so many people that just won't go to tournaments for X-wing because they just aren't fun. The type of lists you need to bring to tournaments just aren't fun to many people. It's not that people aren't nice, but they just get sick of either having to fly a specific type of list, always face the same lists again and again, or just get tired of losing for taking what they consider a fun list. I think the level of competition at tournaments is high enough that there are numerous people that don't have fun there. I think the casual gamer is already excluded from the event. A new player must edge up to play a certain type of a game if they want to go to tournaments. New players just need to either change to become tournament players or eventually give up for not having fun.

If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game. Weekly game night turns into people practicing for tournaments and casual gamers get edged out. I think about 1/3 of all the people that I know that have gotten into X-wing feel this way.

I do totally agree with the Fly Casual mentality deals with you as a player and you should totally be a nice guy when it comes to tournament play. It is a much better environment than other game systems (i.e. Warhammer).

Should a competitive tournament be engineered to make casual players have fun with bad lists?

I really don't think it should. If people want fun, casual play then there are plenty of ways to do that.

I think this is going to be a tricky question that needs to be addressed by each local player base. Regionals are not the place to bring your Triple HWK list and expect to win games. Weekly game nights shouldn't be nothing but Palp Aces Seal Clubbing the new players.

Don't like the extreme min-maxing of top-level play? Design and run some game styles that reward or force some kind of funky twist on list building. I would love to try some sort of King-of-the-Hill mechanic where one player keeps playing the same list until someone beats them. You get a point for each successful defense. Good way to start learning how to counter certain lists and play styles.

We're working on the Aces League to something like this now that the big VASSAL league is a thing.

Going to be honest. If this isn't an in-depth conversation about Illicts then I'm not going to be impressed.

Should a competitive tournament be engineered to make casual players have fun with bad lists?

I really don't think it should. If people want fun, casual play then there are plenty of ways to do that.

So, I look at it this way. If you want to have fun at a Store Championship or higher form or tournament, you're gonna see competitive lists. That's what those tournaments are for and are advertised as such. However you can still get 5-6 games of xwing in with whatever list you want to play, probably playing some cool people.

"If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game."

You have to admit that's a small sample size comparative to the fact that the tournament scene is growing in general.

I absolutely agree with these mentalities. I don't think tournaments should be changed or not for high level play. I also don't think they should be considered for the casual player. I was more thinking contrary to what Sable Griffon was saying about how these rulings will shun away casual players. Personally, I think casual players are already shunned away...unless they are in the process of trying to become serious tournament players. Personally, I'm totally for Intentional Draws because that's hard core tournament play. It's kind of making it obvious what's really happened to the tournament scene. It isn't about having fun and playing games. It's about winning....but still having fun when you try. I'm not saying it isn't about fun. It's really about winning. If you can all take ID's and win, then go for it.

I do disagree with the idea that 1/3 of all people who take up the game are turned away due to the competitive nature of tournament players transforming weekly game night into basically tournament play. I think that's a pretty high percentage.

I think what I dislike is that too many people (at least in my area) get caught up in trying to practice or play at the same tournament level for all their games of X-wing when you can also play a more casual version. There are times when weekly game night is pretty much just like going to a tournament in atmosphere. That's what turns people away and frustrates me.

Good episode in general, I thought. There were certainly good points raised in the big ol' ID discussion (Paul's comment on how his first thought is for the guy opposite the table from him was a very good and pertinent one in particular).

Although it does get to be a bit weird listening to all these podcasts talk on it though; the game-theory culture of 'you can't blame a guy who's being forced by The System' is clearly so entrenched over there they seem to take as some kind of universal truth, which is kinda painful to listen to when mixed with some kind of discussion on ethics. Still, that minor point aside, it was a good listen.

I'm just finishing this podcast. I'm near the end and hearing you guys talk about the ID, Fly Casual, and all the discussion about tournaments. Listening to Sable Griffon talk about how the latest rulings will keep casual players out.....I have to say that it's already happened. I've known so many people that just won't go to tournaments for X-wing because they just aren't fun. The type of lists you need to bring to tournaments just aren't fun to many people. It's not that people aren't nice, but they just get sick of either having to fly a specific type of list, always face the same lists again and again, or just get tired of losing for taking what they consider a fun list. I think the level of competition at tournaments is high enough that there are numerous people that don't have fun there. I think the casual gamer is already excluded from the event. A new player must edge up to play a certain type of a game if they want to go to tournaments. New players just need to either change to become tournament players or eventually give up for not having fun.

If people think that these people are a small minority, I'll say that they are wrong. I've known a lot of people that have dropped out of X-wing due to the tournament level game. Weekly game night turns into people practicing for tournaments and casual gamers get edged out. I think about 1/3 of all the people that I know that have gotten into X-wing feel this way.

I do totally agree with the Fly Casual mentality deals with you as a player and you should totally be a nice guy when it comes to tournament play. It is a much better environment than other game systems (i.e. Warhammer).

This is why I got out of Warhammer Conquest LCG. The game was fun, but there were too many stupid broken effects in it that ignored aspects of the game that made it fun. The whole point of the game was to battle over planets, so as soon as you built up a large number of units they'd get swept by Exterminatus.

Another aspect of the game was holding planets for resources. So your opponent would plop down 3 buildings that allowed you to redeploy a unit. Combo this with a unit that could retreat at will meant they could with one unit, claim the resources of 3-4 planets.

Or you'd build a deck based around Ranged units. Ranged units attack before non ranged. You'd do this and your opponent would just wipe you with start of the round effects. Well what's the point of having ranged units if **** can damage me before my ranged units can fire?!

You'd put down a 6 resource cost giant mech only for it to have an equal amount of attack power as some stupid ork unit your opponent could spam for 2 cost each that did more damage as it got damaged more itself.

So the entire game was filled with stupid loopholes that ignored what made the game fun right out of the core set.

When I meet up with a buddy to play some X-wing, I tend to bring three lists. A timmy, jonny, and a spike. Without letting them see the actual list, I'll ask my opponent what kind of list he wants to play against. Usually end up with a round of experimental, funky lists and then a round of tournament quality lists. The fun part is finding what works from your jonny lists and incorporating them into your tourney squads. Timmy can be fun though too.

When I meet up with a buddy to play some X-wing, I tend to bring three lists. A timmy, jonny, and a spike. Without letting them see the actual list, I'll ask my opponent what kind of list he wants to play against. Usually end up with a round of experimental, funky lists and then a round of tournament quality lists. The fun part is finding what works from your jonny lists and incorporating them into your tourney squads. Timmy can be fun though too.

I completely agree that finding the right opponent is half the battle. That's what has disappointed me, I think. It's taken me a while to come around to my viewpoint, but I've seen the tournament mentality win out on game night. The general attitude is that this is X-wing and if you don't want to play with all the hot toys and the tough lists, then it's not the game for you. I don't think there are enough people that want to try things other than tournament level play on a semi-regular basis.

Game nights are where we prep for competitive tournaments, typically. Expecting other people who enjoy competitive play and rely on game nights for tournament prep to just randomly show up with Trench Run or something similar is a bit much, I think. If you want a night for flying non-competitive lists I think you have to make that happen for yourself.

Game nights are where we prep for competitive tournaments, typically. Expecting other people who enjoy competitive play and rely on game nights for tournament prep to just randomly show up with Trench Run or something similar is a bit much, I think. If you want a night for flying non-competitive lists I think you have to make that happen for yourself.

That's the thing, though. I started X-wing night at the local store. It always was about causal play. I started with a lot of crazy stuff and drew people in. Slowly....over time....many people have turned it into competitive night. Not everyone plays like this, but enough that I've seen people that I got into the game to quit playing as they aren't into tournament mode.

Really ran the full spectrum of opinions, from "Intentional Draws aren't completely terrible, and don't blame the players for the choices they made" all the way to "Intentional Draws are bad, but don't blame me for the choice I made."

All the depth, resonance, and balance of a Shawn Cassidy 45.

Really, really bad show for Theorist to miss.

I've been playing since Super Bowl weekend here in Las Vegas. Most of my games have been monthly tournaments, a couple store champs and the Cancer Tourney. I place in the bottom every time as I haven't played against as many lists and I'm still trying to find a list I love. Every experience has been great, I love the game and the community out here at least is fantastic. People are patient, fun and the lists are diverse. During the cancer tourney I didn't play the same list twice. Casual vs Competitive depends solely on the player. Me I'm casual every time do I want to play well absolutely, but not at the expense of the experience. X-wing is a game period. Games are meant to be played for fun. If you're not having fun then perhaps a different game. The swag is fun but at the end of the day doesn't change that its just a game. every match I fly against whatever the person has chosen to fly and and against the level they play. If I win, cool, if not thanks for the match it was fun. Be the player you want to play with and against and watch the impact it can have in a positive way on your area.

Game nights are where we prep for competitive tournaments, typically. Expecting other people who enjoy competitive play and rely on game nights for tournament prep to just randomly show up with Trench Run or something similar is a bit much, I think. If you want a night for flying non-competitive lists I think you have to make that happen for yourself.

That's the thing, though. I started X-wing night at the local store. It always was about causal play. I started with a lot of crazy stuff and drew people in. Slowly....over time....many people have turned it into competitive night. Not everyone plays like this, but enough that I've seen people that I got into the game to quit playing as they aren't into tournament mode.

Game nights are where we prep for competitive tournaments, typically. Expecting other people who enjoy competitive play and rely on game nights for tournament prep to just randomly show up with Trench Run or something similar is a bit much, I think. If you want a night for flying non-competitive lists I think you have to make that happen for yourself.

That's the thing, though. I started X-wing night at the local store. It always was about causal play. I started with a lot of crazy stuff and drew people in. Slowly....over time....many people have turned it into competitive night. Not everyone plays like this, but enough that I've seen people that I got into the game to quit playing as they aren't into tournament mode.

Sounds like you did well for the community and now need some specialization.

In our area, we ha e 1 casual game day and 2-3 $5 entry, 3 round tournaments. One of the stores sometimes switches it up with Escalation or the double list format.

Me and others have tried to suggest, "hey what about if instead of a tournament we just played one big epic game". The one time it actually happened 3 people showed up and had somewhere to be after like 2 hours and 40 minutes.

So we'eve tried. It's just that 100 point dogfight tournaments are what people here like the most. I don't see the need to cater to someone who wants to plop down Trench Run with Marksmanship. Those players can typically make at least one competitive list with their meager collection, and if I'm going to suggest that they run Crackbots and next event they show up with accuracy corrector, Autoblaster Cannon, and Flechette Cannon I don't know what to do.

Games are meant to be played for fun. If you're not having fun then perhaps a different game.

OK....it's this type attitude that I don't like. The attitude that if tournament level play isn't your thing, then find a different game.

I feel that there are many different ways to play X-wing that go beyond the 100 pt death match. There are missions, campaigns, epic, cinematic, and even just variations on 100 pt death match. What I continually see is the idea that if you don't like tournament level 100 pt death match that maybe this game isn't for you.