If I put an agent into play in the first encounter of the Shadowfall Mountain (Heirs of Blood), and the agent is still on the map when the encounter ends. Can I then port the agent on to the second encounter (as per setup rules) without paying the threat again?

I´m pretty sure I can do that, the text is pretty clear to me, but I thought I´d had it confirmed by the community to avoid unnecessary arguments later on

Thanks.

EDIT: No open groups in that quest. So no agent Thanks to Charmy and Zaltyre.

I'm saying this without reading the quest guide or using agents often, but no, I don't think so. Agents get placed as a result of exhausting a card during encounter setup (the card refreshes as normal). Even if a group were to carry over from one enc to the next, I'd think it would revert back to the normal group.

To explain further, even in a quest like Ritual of Shadows where the monsters are transplanted directly from encounter 1 to encounter 2 (they don't even move,) I'd think the thing to do is replace the agent with whatever monster figures he removed from the quest.

Encounter 1:

"Set aside [...] and each monster on the map. Each monster keeps all damage..."

Encounter 2 (setup):

"Then, place each monster that was set aside in Encounter 1 in the Ford."

Am I really extrapolating this?

I agree, that sounds pretty clear- it just also sounds like a huge departure from how agents usually work.

The way I'm thinking about it, as far as setup rules are concerned, the agent is the monsters he replaced. It makes sense to me, then, that when it's time for the agent to leave (the end of the encounter) the monsters he is replacing would substitute for him in the same way.

Let's turn the situation around for perspective. What would you do if you didn't use the agent in encounter 1, but wanted to use him in encounter 2? You'd take the monsters you had set aside, and instead place the agent where they would have been placed.

In other words, the agent's involvement in one encounter does not affect the other- they are seperate events. Can you use the agent in both encointers in the same.group? Of course- but I really don't think you get to do it for free. On the upside, resummoning the agent means he will have full health.

I guess there is also a possible (even likely) situation where only one Zombie survived from encounter 1, and I want to summon my agent on the Zombie group in encounter 2. I could swap the Zombie sitting at 1 life with Gargan Mirklace Since if I cannot find enough monsters to replace, the agent replaces the whole group.

But for me it comes to the "set the figure and its damage aside" formulation. Encounter 2 doesn't say that I should place the monster group up to how many monsters survived in the previous round. It specifically says "set aside the figure & place directly on the Pond". Practically speaking, you move your minis to the side and place them directly on the tile. No considerations about group size or where the agent comes from. He/she was legally summoned during encounter 1 and gets another chance due to a twisted setup rules point in the second encounter.

I guess that's another question to FFG?

In other words, the agent's involvement in one encounter does not affect the other- they are seperate events. Can you use the agent in both encointers in the same.group? Of course- but I really don't think you get to do it for free. On the upside, resummoning the agent means he will have full health.

I have asked FFG for guidance here.

In the eventuality that I´m right about getting the agent out again for free (although keeping all damage from previous encounter), I suppose I wouldn't be allowed to summon that agent again in that encounter.

My head hurts right now

I agree that asking FFG is a good plan. I can see justification for either conclusion.

One thing to note either way- the agent replaces against the group limits, not against the monsters on the map. So if an agent replaces a master and minion in the zombie group, it turns 4/1 into 3/0- it doesn't replace the whole group just bwcause the master wasn't placed at setup.

Hmm, I played this quest recently, and if I recall there are no open groups available in either Encounter 1 or Encounter 2.. Given this, how are you able to summon your Agent in the first place?

Agents can be summoned into Open Groups only.

This is a heavily hero favoured map due to no Open Group + no Lieutenants.

Do you mean that in the example I took (only one Zombie figure ported to encounter 2) I could summon Kyndrithul (1 master, 2 minions) and still have the zombie? Summoning Kyndrityul makes the Zombie monster group from a 4/1 to a 2/0, thus allowing me to place both the agent and the Zombie.

Does the zombie represent the totality of its monster group?

Hmm, I played this quest recently, and if I recall there are no open groups available in either Encounter 1 or Encounter 2.. Given this, how are you able to summon your Agent in the first place?

Agents can be summoned into Open Groups only.

This is a heavily hero favoured map due to no Open Group + no Lieutenants.

Open group. Yep, that's it, thanks. Awkward

Edit: Encounter 2 doesn't seem impossible for the OL. How was your experience with it? I mean, smashing the correct gate will take time for the heroes and you get a master Shadow Dragon with a huge boost to defense (+4 shields as long as the lair hasn't been exposed). Granted it's a challenge to chew through each hero, and they could just kite the dragon I suppose.

Edit: Encounter 2 doesn't seem impossible for the OL. How was your experience with it? I mean, smashing the correct gate will take time for the heroes and you get a master Shadow Dragon with a huge boost to defense (+4 shields as long as the lair hasn't been exposed). Granted it's a challenge to chew through each hero, and they could just kite the dragon I suppose.

Well, this late in the campaign, most parties will be well geared/armored with mostly Act II or high quality Act I weapons. The lone monster groups trickling in during Encounter 1 are easily dispatched, barring bad rolls, and their opening attacks can be tanked by a hero with Stone Armor or Rune Plate or whatever.

When we played it, the heroes managed to kill every single monster on the map in Encounter 1 *and* escaped off the map before the fire reached them. Cave Spiders, Flesh Moulders, Barghests and Zombies filing in one group at a time just aren't going to stop competent heroes without some serious luck.

Going into the 2nd encounter they were able to remove one lair right off the bat, and had no monsters to deal with on the Ford. The three 'champions' you get suck. I am not a fan of Merriods or Elementals, as they are very squishy for large monsters in my view. Ettins are cool, but its not enough. With no small monsters available, they just can't put enough pain on the heroes and it was easy for them to clear them out.

The Overlord's only real hope is to get Kadlasar to land on a poorly positioned hero group and nail some huge fire breath attacks. However, a skilled hero party will stay well spread out so that the fire breath will never be able to hit more than two of them at a time. The Overlord also couldn't roll a single surge for the life of him. If the heroes have defensive abilities like Shadow Bracers or Cloud of Mist, its even less likely a fire breath is happening. Our group also had a Marshal, which 'By the Book'-ed any good combinations, such as Critical Blow and Dark Might.

Its even worse that the Overlord needs to knock out every single hero, not just the weak links. I am not a fan of that win condition. If any hero has, say, the Stone Armor, its just not likely to happen. The Overlord really needed open groups in this one, so that they could adapt to the hero composition and pick counters (e.g. High pierce monsters, monsters with reposition abilities, monsters that can lower hero attributes, etc.). As is.. its kinda gong show without a lot of luck on your side

In my run, the heroes found Kadlasar's lair as the very last one on the map, so that was the best outcome for the Overlord, and he still got totally creamed. They ignored Kadlasar till the lair went down, then wiped him out in two turns. One minion reinforcement at a time doesn't help.

Well, that is an interesting loophole. Although, as to my humble opinion, I will solve it as follow:

As a lawyer, I see only two conflicts here, the Quest Rules vs the Trigger Mechanic from the Overlord Plot Card.

1) The Quest rules says:

Encounter 1:

"Set aside [...] and each monster on the map. Each monster keeps all damage..."

Encounter 2 (setup):

"Then, place each monster that was set aside in Encounter 1 in the Ford."

2) Then, what Zaltyre pointed out is also important. The summoning agent effect is tied to a trigger caused by exhausting the Plot Card. Then, if this card refreshes, the effect is no longer applied, resulting in the agent to be remove from the game.

My solution

However, due to the text in the last errata saying:

“ The quest rules listed in the Quest Guides takes precedence over cards, abilities, and the rulebook ”.

Although, it refers to the core rulebook, I should extend that term (rulebook) to any other rulebooks (the rule of summoning an agent comes from Lt Packs book, as it is the one that explains the summoning effect , the one that has the effect in conflict).

Therefore, I will solve the problem as Indalecio’s first approach “the agent will spawn in the map in encounter two”, as the Quest Rules overriding the summon mechanic from the Lt Pack rulebook .

I hope I explain it clear hehehe as English is not my native language, terms are difficult sometimes for me. Nevertheless, that’s how I see, and how I would solve the problem.

@Volkren: The premises were all wrong, as you cannot possibly summon an agent on an encounter with no open group. Thanks anyway for your view mate

@Charmy. I have to say that I really like reading you.

Anyway, my situation is not better than your OL's. I am also facing Marshal with "By the Book" but above all "I am the Law", which means Kadlasar can expect a counterstrike at any attempt to take the warrior down. Firebreath would have to target another hero and rely on poor heroes placement, which is not going to happen bar a lucky Web Trap or an Immobilizing Merriod/Elemental. Both of which have other things to do (or do they? wouldn't I just let the heroes destroy the doors and try to focus on getting some damage through?). But yeah, at this point of the campaign, you can rarely afford giving away free attacks on your already (very) few monsters. What's even more obnoxious (yes, that's possible apparently) is that they have a Bard with Rehearsal. God I hate this card. A free Dark Fortune for each hero every round. Granted it eats up a song token, so that's one off some of the fatigue buffs, but negating the chance for the heroes to roll a most welcomed X on the dice or re-roll the black dice on an attribute test is such a game changer.

As you may have concluded, I am yet to play the quest. I´m not even sure we will play it, as we´re just waiting for Prison of Khinn to reach its conclusion. One other possible quest after this one is the Rite of the Red Dawn, which looks like a "normal" quest compared to Shadowfall Mountain. Maybe I should let the heroes win Prison of Khinn so we can play Rite instead of Mountain

I completely agree with you about the wincon being rotten. At this point of the campaign, killing anything else than the mage or the scout (which is all but trivial) is a luxury. I´m exagerating a bit, as you can certainly manage a kill or two if you spend a non-trivial amount of resources into doing it, but taking down buffed heroes with counterstrikes is a different story.

Given all that, and if you don't count on getting any monster from encounter 1, I think the best shot at the quest is to get all the "champions" to attack, with the dragon trying to land a final blow. The Merriod can Flail, and the Elemental can both shoot and Water for fatigue if brought into range. I´m not even counting on Earth to ground the heroes (this say I have web traps) because they all have ranged weapons anyway.

You mentioned about the trinkets negating surges. My heroes have this ring (bloodscript?) which grants Terrify condition on surge. Now luckily the dragon gets rid of it when he vanishes, but the other monsters can't possibly do that, as you have to lose LoS to the heroes and their familiars. So technically they could just land Terrify on the Ettin and the Merriod and ignore them. The Elemental still needs killing. I'm not buying Dark Remedy for that nonsense.

One thing to note either way- the agent replaces against the group limits, not against the monsters on the map. So if an agent replaces a master and minion in the zombie group, it turns 4/1 into 3/0- it doesn't replace the whole group just bwcause the master wasn't placed at setup.

Is there a new ruling for that? My plot rules sheet says: " Plot cards that that allow the OL to summon an agent often require him to replace master and minion monsters of an open group after setup of an encounter. If the OL cannot meet the replacement requirements, he replaces the entire open group. "

According to this text, if the requirements after setup aren't met, the whole group is replaced. So if a master Zombie is missing, the whole group would be replaced. Or a whole Kobold group would be replaced for any agent that requires a minion.

That is, unless this text has been errata'd, which I don't know about.

In the specific case of Shadowfall Mountain, remaining monsters from the 1st encounter could not be replaced by an agent in the second because they are not defined as an open group in this 2nd encounter: they are just "All monsters set aside in Encounter 1". (This is just a silly repeat of what you all already noticed.)

There was an FFG rules response which said if the agent replaces 1 master and on minion and your group is kobolds, you remove 1 master, and then you simply have one fewer minion you can spawn (it drops the group limit).

I'll see if I can find it. I believe it was posted here.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192272-summoning-agent-in-group-without-minions/?hl=%2Bagent+%2Bkobold

That is the thread where the answer is reported.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/192272-summoning-agent-in-group-without-minions/?hl=%2Bagent+%2Bkobold

That is the thread where the answer is reported.

Thank you for the quote.

This is a very surprising rules answer however. It not only contradicts the plot rules text (which is clear enough), it also doesn't even get the math right: Valyndra replaces 1 master and 2 minions, not 3, so I don't see by which logic the group should be reduced from 3/9 to 2/6, because 9 - 2 = 7, not 6.

It is hard to believe they answered in a way that both contradicts their printed rules (without pointing out that what is written is a mistake), is mathematically wrong and is gamebreaking: sure, I will replace my tiny 7 health, brown-diced master Kobold with a giant firebreathing black-grey-brown-diced wall with 22 health behind which my 2 remaining master Kobolds will happily be able to spawn forever.

It's actually disheartening to see such weird rulings pop up.

The math is in my opinion simply a mistake, not an intentional part of the ruling. The ruling does not disagree with the plot card rules. It says that the agent replaces figures from the monster group after setup.

That DOES NOT mean that the monsters replaced must only be monsters that are put on the map. (that is, if you're called to replace a master and a minion kobold, you do not need to replace the entire group).

That DOES mean that you cannot substitute the agent, then place monsters for setup. (that is, if you're instructed to place "up to 3 zombies on the map" you cannot replace a master and a minion, then place the agent and 2 minions.)

The math is in my opinion simply a mistake, not an intentional part of the ruling. The ruling does not disagree with the plot card rules. It says that the agent replaces figures from the monster group after setup.

That DOES NOT mean that the monsters replaced must only be monsters that are put on the map. (that is, if you're called to replace a master and a minion kobold, you do not need to replace the entire group).

Ah, that's where my mistake lies. I interpreted "replace master and minion monsters after setup" as replacing the monsters that had been placed on the map during setup. I hadn't realized one could replace what's not there. It's so obvious, I wonder why I missed it.

Silly me.