100% disagree. You make it sound like anyone who takes this build cant lose and that is just not true. Stop propagating this crap. Its the player and the build that win games not one or the other. *shakes head*Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.
What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?
You need neither Rieekan or a mirror list to beat a Clon fleet.
I posted the perfect counter fleet in the fleet building section, even Clon agreed it would be a bad thing to face.
Bids bids...... I'm in a spin.....
Sure, if you and I played and I had a Clon style, I would likely win. The only chance you would likely have is if you had a similar list OR Rieekan. That's it. That is what you are pretty much forced to build for if you want to win.
100% disagree. You make it sound like anyone who takes this build cant lose and that is just not true. Stop propagating this crap. Its the player and the build that win games not one or the other. *shakes head*
Exactly my point...I never said it wasnt brutal just that it can be beat if the other player is a better player with a good build. I am also not convinced that a Rieekan or similar build is the only way to win but I guess only time will tell.
That screams imbalance to me.
Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.
Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.
What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?
You need neither Rieekan or a mirror list to beat a Clon fleet.
I posted the perfect counter fleet in the fleet building section, even Clon agreed it would be a bad thing to face.
At the Louisville Regionals yesterday;
1st place 20pt bid
2nd place 41pt bid
Sweet Jesus. We all need to collectively get better at second player. There is no way first player is so much of an advantage that you should be able to play 10% down and still place second.
Correction. We all need to get better at going 2nd vs. Demolisher. That IS what is driving these bids so high! Playing 2nd is usually managabe otherwise.
It's hard for an MC30 fleet to go second. We can do it but it is far riskier and works less in our favor. However, a Demolisher list does not have this issue. It can still catch it's prey and attack. . . So either I need a new list or I have to restructure my entire way of thinking and planning. . .
I said neither Rieekan or a mirror, IE do not need to play one or the other.
I posted a Mon Mothma build that would crucify a Clon fleet.
It would do just fine against pretty much anything else as well, so it is not a one trick pony build.
heheh.... "crucify"
It has a lower initiative bid, it has more ship activations.
The MC30s can reliably kill Demo with average damage rolls, and a frontarc/sidearc shot, they can theoretically with their broadside dice pool kill a Raider if one ends up with one either side of it, you could with a hmm lets see 6 damage from 2 blue, 3 black kill both Raiders (but this would mean 1 damage from blue, and 5 damage from the 3 black dice, possible but not an average roll.) but if they fire a front/side arc at a Raider, even a poor roll will kill it.
The ships are as fast, they are maneuverable enough to do what you need them to.
I don't see how you could stop the MC30 doing to Demolisher, what Demolisher so aptly does to others.
It has a lower initiative bid, it has more ship activations.
The MC30s can reliably kill Demo with average damage rolls, and a frontarc/sidearc shot, they can theoretically with their broadside dice pool kill a Raider if one ends up with one either side of it, you could with a hmm lets see 6 damage from 2 blue, 3 black kill both Raiders (but this would mean 1 damage from blue, and 5 damage from the 3 black dice, possible but not an average roll.) but if they fire a front/side arc at a Raider, even a poor roll will kill it.
The ships are as fast, they are maneuverable enough to do what you need them to.
I don't see how you could stop the MC30 doing to Demolisher, what Demolisher so aptly does to others.
So basically, underbid it and out activate to win. Nothing really novel there. Almost any list can beat demolisher if it doesn't get last/first...
Sorry, what is the list. How may ships? How many deployments? What's the bid?
Sorry, what is the list. How may ships? How many deployments? What's the bid?
EasternKing's list is 379 points, 6 activations.
It's a list that itself needs to go first...I don't think there's much room in the build to top a 41 point bid...you could but you degrade your effectiveness against other builds.
I'm going to try a bare bones/max bid Rebel list and see how it works. Rieekan may be more effective though...
EasternKing's list is 379 points, 6 activations.
It's a list that itself needs to go first...I don't think there's much room in the build to top a 41 point bid...you could but you degrade your effectiveness against other builds.
I'm going to try a bare bones/max bid Rebel list and see how it works. Rieekan may be more effective though...
EasternKing's list is 379 points, 6 activations.
It's a list that itself needs to go first...I don't think there's much room in the build to top a 41 point bid...you could but you degrade your effectiveness against other builds.
I'm going to try a bare bones/max bid Rebel list and see how it works. Rieekan may be more effective though...
I can tell you from experience of running a similar list (minus one CR90, diff upgrades on the shrimps) that running MC30s with Rieekan just made me miss Mon Mothma, especially without titles. You definitely need Mon Mothma for that list. Of course, playtest for yourself, but that has been my experience.
In regards to FFG I dont see them doing anything to the demolisher the same way they didnt do anything about Ackbar and now he is off everyone's radar. They know these communities (and I include myself here) are reactionary to winning lists.
The difference is that there was always a pretty sizable contingent of people who always knew how to counter Ackbar, and it wasn't through obscure niche builds like 50-point bid swarms. It was a tactical counter that a wide number of fleets could implement.
"Outbid a 40-point bid or have more than 5 very hard-hitting ships or dramatically out-play your opponent"
is very different from
"take squadrons or out-deploy him or have something fast to drop in his front arc."
In regards to FFG I dont see them doing anything to the demolisher the same way they didnt do anything about Ackbar and now he is off everyone's radar. They know these communities (and I include myself here) are reactionary to winning lists.
The difference is that there was always a pretty sizable contingent of people who always knew how to counter Ackbar, and it wasn't through obscure niche builds like 50-point bid swarms. It was a tactical counter that a wide number of fleets could implement.
"Outbid a 40-point bid or have more than 5 very hard-hitting ships or dramatically out-play your opponent"
is very different from
"take squadrons or out-deploy him or have something fast to drop in his front arc."
Yep, playing against Ackbar vs. playing against Clon aren't even in the same realm.
That's because I AM THE TRAP!
Go home Trappy, you're Drunk.
That's because I AM THE TRAP!
Theres a rebel 5 ship dual mc30 list that comes in at less than 330.... time to start rethinking Clon.
(Although I see you already have a new list ready to break the game, I suspect it will)
Go home Trappy, you're Drunk.
That's because I AM THE TRAP!
Theres a rebel 5 ship dual mc30 list that comes in at less than 330.... time to start rethinking Clon.
(Although I see you already have a new list ready to break the game, I suspect it will)
That's because I AM THE TRAP!
Theres a rebel 5 ship dual mc30 list that comes in at less than 330.... time to start rethinking Clon.
(Although I see you already have a new list ready to break the game, I suspect it will)
MC30's can't deal with fighters the way that Raiders can, though. And for the way Clon plays it, you need to understand the maneuverability power the Raider has. Being able to turn 90 degrees every round with 4 of your ships is also a part of their success.
That's because I AM THE TRAP!
Theres a rebel 5 ship dual mc30 list that comes in at less than 330.... time to start rethinking Clon.
(Although I see you already have a new list ready to break the game, I suspect it will)
MC30's can't deal with fighters the way that Raiders can, though. And for the way Clon plays it, you need to understand the maneuverability power the Raider has. Being able to turn 90 degrees every round with 4 of your ships is also a part of their success.
That's because I AM THE TRAP!
Theres a rebel 5 ship dual mc30 list that comes in at less than 330.... time to start rethinking Clon.
(Although I see you already have a new list ready to break the game, I suspect it will)
Sure. . . You can have a list like that. . . But it will be too varied I think.
+++ The test list (322pts) +++
CR90 Corvette A (74pts) [•General Rieekan]
CR90 Corvette A (44pts)
CR90 Corvette B (39pts)
CR90 Corvette B (39pts)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63pts)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63pts)
A list like this won't work. It can't combat many threats.
Mc30c Torpedo Frigate
Lando
Ordnance Experts
Rapid Reload
X17 Turbolasers
Mc30c Torpedo Frigate
Raymus
Ordnance Experts
Rapid Reload
X17 Turbolasers
Admonition
Cr90B
General Dodonna
Sw7
Cr90B
Sw7
Cr90B
Sw7
333pts
I never said it was a good list....
Mc30c Torpedo Frigate
Lando
Ordnance Experts
Rapid Reload
X17 Turbolasers
Mc30c Torpedo Frigate
Raymus
Ordnance Experts
Rapid Reload
X17 Turbolasers
Admonition
Cr90B
General Dodonna
Sw7
Cr90B
Sw7
Cr90B
Sw7
333pts
I never said it was a good list....
Mc30c Torpedo Frigate
Lando
Ordnance Experts
Rapid Reload
X17 Turbolasers
Mc30c Torpedo Frigate
Raymus
Ordnance Experts
Rapid Reload
X17 Turbolasers
Admonition
Cr90B
General Dodonna
Sw7
Cr90B
Sw7
Cr90B
Sw7
333pts
I never said it was a good list....
I'm not sure RR is the right upgrade for Shrimps. With 5 dice, there is already plenty of reason for your opponent to stay out of your side. This is just further incentive. Clonisher builds already have a good solution to staying out of your side arc (ie, maneuverability). Playing Dodonna, you only need 1 crit to trigger what you want, and with OE you should have enough black die to get that. I think you want APTs in general, and especially with Dodonna, to make sure you always push that crit though and not even shields can't get in the way.
Its a framework not a final list. It would be in fleet lists if I was looking for feedback.
Good luck keeping out of the side arc of an mc30 with six dice activating 5th and the first....