Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.

Well, I agree. But I thought everyone was hating on me a few threads ago about Demolisher being out of balance/out of whack?

So two bid heavy, gladiator-centric fleets won at Louisville. Food for thought!

So.. Eating a little crow. But. Not much. Mad minor deployment error. But I made the list work for the win. I saw the...'wait you did what??' Look a few times. Lol

Great game tho.

So.. Eating a little crow. But. Not much. Mad minor deployment error. But I made the list work for the win. I saw the...'wait you did what??' Look a few times. Lol

Great game tho.

So two bid heavy, gladiator-centric fleets won at Louisville. Food for thought!

I took at 16 point bid to Regionals in LA. First round I took a Store Champ bye (didn't want to but there would have been an odd number, so used it) so I was only able to play 2 games (sad face).

I had the lowest bid that of which I was aware. I knew of one other 386 Demo RDRx3 Firespray x6(?) list.

And of course I played two fleets w/3 ships, ZERO squadrons, and 399 points. One win, One loss so I finished in the middle. Whatyagonnado?

You still gotta have balls to run 4 raiders.

In a SC I went with 5 Victory I and Screed.

Thats 391 points. And this was the lowest bid in all my matches.

At the Louisville Regionals yesterday;

1st place 20pt bid

2nd place 41pt bid

At the Louisville Regionals yesterday;

1st place 20pt bid

2nd place 41pt bid

Sweet Jesus. We all need to collectively get better at second player. There is no way first player is so much of an advantage that you should be able to play 10% down and still place second.

At the Louisville Regionals yesterday;

1st place 20pt bid

2nd place 41pt bid

Sweet Jesus. We all need to collectively get better at second player. There is no way first player is so much of an advantage that you should be able to play 10% down and still place second.

If I had the same number of activations I'd happily play second. Aced my last go second game against another high bid imperial list. So I think I will stick with my 19 point bid.

Playing second against a demo list with more activations than you is always going to be hard work, even when you know what it can do and have practiced, blocking and setting exit point traps. If you've not had play against it and practiced you're going to get you lovely models shovelled of the board by the bucket load ( it's a black adder goes forth moment )

At the Louisville Regionals yesterday;

1st place 20pt bid

2nd place 41pt bid

Sweet Jesus. We all need to collectively get better at second player. There is no way first player is so much of an advantage that you should be able to play 10% down and still place second.

Correction. We all need to get better at going 2nd vs. Demolisher. That IS what is driving these bids so high! Playing 2nd is usually managabe otherwise.

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.

You need neither Rieekan or a mirror list to beat a Clon fleet.

I posted the perfect counter fleet in the fleet building section, even Clon agreed it would be a bad thing to face.

It does seem like this is currently the style of list tp run - if you have practice with it...

There are lists that can beat it, but those seem to have more counters (or at least less likelihood of 9-1 or 10-0 wins). So if you don't draw one of those early, you've got a good chance of being in the top.

The process I use for determining bid in quite simple. I keep rough track of how many times an upgrade/ship is used/useful during games. If a card is only used in certain edge cases, it needs to go. Its a process that lots of upgrade heavy builds could benefit from. When I was running rebel lists and doing this, I found that there were cards that I was spending points on that I would be lucky to use once in the entire tournament.

(the following is written from imperial on perspective)

Imperial lists benefit from this concept greatly. Simply because for everything but the ISD2, there are NO defensive options whatsoever(excluding monty, who is kinda meh). This means that if it doesn't direct influence your maneuvering(which is both offensive power and your only defense) or your firepower, the card is useless. After removing all of the defensive options you are primarily left with command manipulation. For VSD lists(and maybe ISD, maybe), command manipulation is decent, all other lists get minimal/no gain from it.

Boiling this down gets to the sad truth that using all your upgrade slots may not be the best bet when fleet building. Obvious difference being that ISD's perform better naked than MC80s. Wow that lead to some horrible analogies and mental images, im going to stop now.

I am referring to the fact that I was(still am kind of) blasé about clonisher list. I said I'll kill it quick or ignore it. But it doesn't scare me enough to under bid.... Etc etc b

Since I said that I ended up going against a competent player with that build. I threw a few curve balls at him and made him work for it. But... He did win in the end and I was the most fun game I've had in a long long time ago in a gal.... I mean. Long time.

The list does not scare me enough to under bid by 20+ still. But. I will give it enough props that it will make me rethink 2-4 activations only.

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.

You need neither Rieekan or a mirror list to beat a Clon fleet.

I posted the perfect counter fleet in the fleet building section, even Clon agreed it would be a bad thing to face.

At the Louisville Regionals yesterday;

1st place 20pt bid

2nd place 41pt bid

Sweet Jesus. We all need to collectively get better at second player. There is no way first player is so much of an advantage that you should be able to play 10% down and still place second.

Correction. We all need to get better at going 2nd vs. Demolisher. That IS what is driving these bids so high! Playing 2nd is usually managabe otherwise.

It's hard for an MC30 fleet to go second. We can do it but it is far riskier and works less in our favor. However, a Demolisher list does not have this issue. It can still catch it's prey and attack. . . So either I need a new list or I have to restructure my entire way of thinking and planning. . .

41 points is freaking bananaballs

Boiling this down gets to the sad truth that using all your upgrade slots may not be the best bet when fleet building.

Take Demolisher out of the equation, and I suspect we'd not see such drastic bids. If locking down 1st player did not unleash Demolisher the way you want it to, I'd wager you would not be so cavalier about running without 41 pts other upgrades.

Demolisher is driving deep bids by players taking Demolisher or that are planning to face it. And you'd better be prepared to face it as we are seeing it so frequently in the top placers in the regionals to date. Or you can just be happy with a 1-9 in the last round like Altahara was when you face it. Surely winning isn't "everything" but if you want to place high in a tournament, you need to really think hard about that bid as you will see a Demolisher with a big bid for 1st somewhere on the ladder.

The process I use for determining bid in quite simple. I keep rough track of how many times an upgrade/ship is used/useful during games. If a card is only used in certain edge cases, it needs to go. Its a process that lots of upgrade heavy builds could benefit from. When I was running rebel lists and doing this, I found that there were cards that I was spending points on that I would be lucky to use once in the entire tournament.

(the following is written from imperial on perspective)

Imperial lists benefit from this concept greatly. Simply because for everything but the ISD2, there are NO defensive options whatsoever(excluding monty, who is kinda meh). This means that if it doesn't direct influence your maneuvering(which is both offensive power and your only defense) or your firepower, the card is useless. After removing all of the defensive options you are primarily left with command manipulation. For VSD lists(and maybe ISD, maybe), command manipulation is decent, all other lists get minimal/no gain from it.

Boiling this down gets to the sad truth that using all your upgrade slots may not be the best bet when fleet building. Obvious difference being that ISD's perform better naked than MC80s. Wow that lead to some horrible analogies and mental images, im going to stop now.

Demolished is one of the few ships that gives you increasing returns for using all the up grade slots. In fact it is the only ship that actually needs you to spend over 50% of its base value on upgrades to unlock it potential.

There is a whole new thread in that...what's the optional percentage of base cost for each type of ship (titles as a separate listing) mmmmm I will think on that.

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.

You need neither Rieekan or a mirror list to beat a Clon fleet.

I posted the perfect counter fleet in the fleet building section, even Clon agreed it would be a bad thing to face.

100% disagree. You make it sound like anyone who takes this build cant lose and that is just not true. Stop propagating this crap. Its the player and the build that win games not one or the other. *shakes head*

@overdawg, et al - I just ran a high activation, high deployment, high bid demo list for the Louisville regional and won. All my games were certainly hard fought and my opponents were great. All highly skilled and knew exactly what they were facing. The simple fact is...it didn't matter. Demo+BId+Activation is death. ITs broken death. It requires a VERY specific counter which is the definition of an over powered build/card.

I will not say that anyone taking this list will win....certainlynot the case. HOWEVER, given a pool of list archetypes, it is most assuredly the EASIEST to win with. Meaning, same skill. this list wins.

Kinda sucks... but, Ill kepp running it to make a point. Maybe FFG will throw an errata or nerf demo way soon. One can hope.

41 points is freaking bananaballs

So what you're telling me at this point, Clon, is you believe that only Like can defeat like, and that if anyone takes this, it is going to escalate cold-war-esque style until someone tries to fit a bunch of glads and raiders into 350 points?

41 points is freaking bananaballs

I want to point out this was Forseen...

So what you're telling me at this point, Clon, is you believe that only Like can defeat like, and that if anyone takes this, it is going to escalate cold-war-esque style until someone tries to fit a bunch of glads and raiders into 350 points?

DAMMIT...

I HATE it when I wind up being Prophetic...

@overdawg, et al - I just ran a high activation, high deployment, high bid demo list for the Louisville regional and won. All my games were certainly hard fought and my opponents were great. All highly skilled and knew exactly what they were facing. The simple fact is...it didn't matter. Demo+BId+Activation is death. ITs broken death. It requires a VERY specific counter which is the definition of an over powered build/card.

I will not say that anyone taking this list will win....certainlynot the case. HOWEVER, given a pool of list archetypes, it is most assuredly the EASIEST to win with. Meaning, same skill. this list wins.

Kinda sucks... but, Ill kepp running it to make a point. Maybe FFG will throw an errata or nerf demo way soon. One can hope.

For the record, I think it's telling when people win events with a clontroper-style list and they also note "hey, the Demolisher title probably needs errata."

I love running this style of fleet but for reals, Demolisher probably needs errata. At least as the game stands now.

@overdawg, et al - I just ran a high activation, high deployment, high bid demo list for the Louisville regional and won. All my games were certainly hard fought and my opponents were great. All highly skilled and knew exactly what they were facing. The simple fact is...it didn't matter. Demo+BId+Activation is death. ITs broken death. It requires a VERY specific counter which is the definition of an over powered build/card.

I will not say that anyone taking this list will win....certainlynot the case. HOWEVER, given a pool of list archetypes, it is most assuredly the EASIEST to win with. Meaning, same skill. this list wins.

Kinda sucks... but, Ill kepp running it to make a point. Maybe FFG will throw an errata or nerf demo way soon. One can hope.

I hear what you are saying but I guess I am just stubborn in my belief that no build is unstoppable.

Obviously you know what you are doing but not everyone is as experienced. My point is (and I am sticking to my guns) that no matter how good the build is if the person playing isnt an experienced player and comes up against another experienced player who has mastered their build its not a guaranteed win. Time after time people (and I am not pointing my finger at you) claim this build or that is unstoppable only to be proved wrong once the community finds a way to beat it. I guess in the end we just have to see how the season plays out.

In regards to FFG I dont see them doing anything to the demolisher the same way they didnt do anything about Ackbar and now he is off everyone's radar. They know these communities (and I include myself here) are reactionary to winning lists.

If they continue to win unopposed then hopefully FFG can find someway to mitigate it without errata to the Demolisher.