I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Or DtO

actually no, the reason my list is vulnerable to itself is in fact Brace tokens, of which DTO has 0...

Yet, I have yet to need a brace token. Odd that. All those demolisher's and brace has not been an issue.

Though by now Clon, you have a new iteration of your list. /sigh, Imperials have it so easy on the bids

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Or DtO

actually no, the reason my list is vulnerable to itself is in fact Brace tokens, of which DTO has 0...

Yet, I have yet to need a brace token. Odd that. All those demolisher's and brace has not been an issue.

This won't happen against you since 1 clonisher out deploys DTO by 1 and 2 your corvettes are not likely to survive the first strike and 3) are less likely to be able to kill my ships in a single activation

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Yes It's actually quite a good list as second player, lists of black dice ships make very good defensive pieces ( gladiators make lovely traps).

I'm happy to play a high activation demo list as second against most list. But my worry is playing second player against a proper bomber (130+ points) heavy list.. I can see it using its threat range to do nasty things to my key ships before the carriers get anywhere near a black dice.

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Yes It's actually quite a good list as second player, lists of black dice ships make very good defensive pieces ( gladiators make lovely traps).

I'm happy to play a high activation demo list as second against most list. But my worry is playing second player against a proper bomber (130+ points) heavy list.. I can see it using its threat range to do nasty things to my key ships before the carriers get anywhere near a black dice.

Wow, I'll be honest. I bid for second player, and to use my objectives. Idk. Just seems more powerful. The demo last first thing. I ignore. Or kill as quick as I can. Idk. Never been a prob for me.

You guys remember those time-lapse AAR videos that somebody was doing a couple months back? We need to make one of those of Clon dismantling somebody to post for every one of these "meh, I could take that, just kill it fast!" posts. Cause, I'll be honest, I thought the same thing when I first saw the list. Before I saw it in action.

I was the same until I thought "what the hell" I will prove its no better than any other list and took a five activation demo list to a tournament, it was the first time I've ever played imps ( played rebels since wave one came out). It was a bit of a blow to a die hard rebel player......it's just scary how good it is.

This now my go to comp list because:

1) it's scary how quickly you can end a game.

2) it's the most forgiving list (you won't kill demo before he's eaten your most important piece, you really won't)

3) activations, speed and firepower win games, this list is the only one that has all three by the bucket

4) it's the least tiring list I have played( thinking through a complex rebel list is tiring, if you are at it for 6+ hours you start to make errors, this list is not so tiring to play)

Will I play it as my friendly normal Sunday afternoon list ? no......it's boring, boring blow the ship up move to the next ship blow it up boring....sorry Clon but the meta you've championed is boring, very very good, but not so much fun.......

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Yes It's actually quite a good list as second player, lists of black dice ships make very good defensive pieces ( gladiators make lovely traps).

I'm happy to play a high activation demo list as second against most list. But my worry is playing second player against a proper bomber (130+ points) heavy list.. I can see it using its threat range to do nasty things to my key ships before the carriers get anywhere near a black dice.

yea against carriers you really need 1st player, fortunately carrier lists usually can't bid more then 10-12 points without major drop in effectivness

Yes I'm thinking a 19 point bid, there is nothing much else I need for those points and I think most bomber happy players would take a firespay or B wing over a 19 point bid....

Will I play it as my friendly normal Sunday afternoon list ? no......it's boring, boring blow the ship up move to the next ship blow it up boring....sorry Clon but the meta you've championed is boring, very very good, but not so much fun.......

Honestly I see a lot of talk about clontroper-style fleets here but rarely anywhere else. I don't see many of them in real life. I was expecting to see another one at the Adepticon tournament and the closest I got was my round two opponent who was running 2 Gladiators, 2 Raiders, 4 Firesprays, and a 7 point bid which was close-ish but not really the same thing.

Per clontroper (and my own earlier experience running a similar fleet prior to it becoming an internet-thing), the fleet's core concept was "how can I stomp all these boring Ackbar conga line fleets I see everywhere?" If I have to tolerate a meta where one of the strongest fleet archetypes requires a keen grasp of ranges, maneuvering, and activation order and is fairly unforgiving, that seems fine to me if it comes at the expense of "I'm going to line up these ships and red dice + upgrades + Gunnery Team you to death" Ackbar snoozefest fleets.

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Or DtO

actually no, the reason my list is vulnerable to itself is in fact Brace tokens, of which DTO has 0...

Yet, I have yet to need a brace token. Odd that. All those demolisher's and brace has not been an issue.

well the reason player 2 clonisher beats player 1 clonisher is that it gets the first kill. It does this by having the last activation and forcing player 1 to close. Normally in this situation player 1 clonisher jumps a corvette to kill it and regain activation advantage (as it would do against your list) but against raiders it will not be able to kill them without an acc which it is unlikely to get. Then allowing player 2 raider to kill demolisher if it has a double arc or allowing player 2 to Attack player 1s raider leaving them in a one on one exchange until they mutually destroy echother.

This won't happen against you since 1 clonisher out deploys DTO by 1 and 2 your corvettes are not likely to survive the first strike and 3) are less likely to be able to kill my ships in a single activation

While trhis seems like a reasonable situation i dont think this would actually end up like this. Oh it could EASILY happen but at the same time maybe not. hmmmm

Will I play it as my friendly normal Sunday afternoon list ? no......it's boring, boring blow the ship up move to the next ship blow it up boring....sorry Clon but the meta you've championed is boring, very very good, but not so much fun.......

Honestly I see a lot of talk about clontroper-style fleets here but rarely anywhere else. I don't see many of them in real life. I was expecting to see another one at the Adepticon tournament and the closest I got was my round two opponent who was running 2 Gladiators, 2 Raiders, 4 Firesprays, and a 7 point bid which was close-ish but not really the same thing.

Per clontroper (and my own earlier experience running a similar fleet prior to it becoming an internet-thing), the fleet's core concept was "how can I stomp all these boring Ackbar conga line fleets I see everywhere?" If I have to tolerate a meta where one of the strongest fleet archetypes requires a keen grasp of ranges, maneuvering, and activation order and is fairly unforgiving, that seems fine to me if it comes at the expense of "I'm going to line up these ships and red dice + upgrades + Gunnery Team you to death" Ackbar snoozefest fleets.

You need a lot of Raiders and not many people want to buy that many raiders. It is also a shock and awe list. After a time it will lose that factor and people with be able to tease out the idiosyncrasies of the list. It is the same reason I dont bring out DtO all the time. I have the ships but I want to save its style and use it where it is most effective.

The other strength of Clon, that a lot of people seem to be forgetting (or at least, I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread), is that it's pretty good at handling squadrons. 4 raiders are going to chop up squadrons pretty effectively, despite his measley 2 tie screen.

You can't do the same thing with rebels. 'Vets and Shrimps are never going to have an answer to squadrons. So Clon (and clones) can look at their list and say "where can I chop off points for a bigger bid?" and there's actually quite a few things he can take off to push his bid down. For rebels to get 5 activations, (that including some meat and power to them), and be able to deal with squadrons...there's just no way they can compete on bids with that.

TL;DR: to quote Lyr, Imps have it easy.

'Vets and Shrimps are never going to have an answer to squadrons.

Totally Agree.

But that's why its not a huge deal to include Neb-Bs.

'Vets and Shrimps are never going to have an answer to squadrons.

Totally Agree.

But that's why its not a huge deal to include Neb-Bs.

Part of the strength of clon is that by stacking 4 Raiders, in addition to all the other benefits it brings (punching power, speed, agility and activation advantage), you also have enough overlapping AS stuff as to make getting squadron rushed an intimidating proposition. A Neb B, even 2, doesn't really provide that (and they are a much bigger liability, in my opinion).

If the other person didn't bring intel, 1 YT-2400 and 1 YT-1300 make a really, really annoying speed bump, but otherwise I agree- it's hard to justify 114 points for 2 neb'b's if their primary role is flak.

I'd much rather take that many points in x-wings

Rieekan SW7 Corvette B's

Not sure the question anymore, but this is usually the answer.

'Vets and Shrimps are never going to have an answer to squadrons.

Totally Agree.

But that's why its not a huge deal to include Neb-Bs.

Wait. . . Are you sure? Have you seen my last Vassal game?

I deal with squadrons easily. Either I can overwhelm them with multiple arcs thus dropping them or I ignore them and get rid of their ships. You can tell me it should not work but about 5 players will tell you it does.

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

Yeah, I get a lot of arch eyebrows whee I plop down 8 CR90's against bomber lists, until I vigorously reminded my opponents what 4 or 5 overlapping arcs of 1-die AS with a CF dial can do to TIEs...

Yeah, I get a lot of arch eyebrows whee I plop down 8 CR90's against bomber lists, until I vigorously reminded my opponents what 4 or 5 overlapping arcs of 1-die AS with a CF dial can do to TIEs...

'Vets and Shrimps are never going to have an answer to squadrons.

Totally Agree.

But that's why its not a huge deal to include Neb-Bs.

Wait. . . Are you sure? Have you seen my last Vassal game?

I deal with squadrons easily. Either I can overwhelm them with multiple arcs thus dropping them or I ignore them and get rid of their ships. You can tell me it should not work but about 5 players will tell you it does.

I was led to believe you got amazingly lucky on your AS shots, Lyr. Did you face a Rhymer or Fireball? with that list? I have a hard time believing DtO easily oppresses Fresprays.

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

'Vets and Shrimps are never going to have an answer to squadrons.

Totally Agree.

But that's why its not a huge deal to include Neb-Bs.

Wait. . . Are you sure? Have you seen my last Vassal game?

I deal with squadrons easily. Either I can overwhelm them with multiple arcs thus dropping them or I ignore them and get rid of their ships. You can tell me it should not work but about 5 players will tell you it does.

I was led to believe you got amazingly lucky on your AS shots, Lyr. Did you face a Rhymer or Fireball? with that list? I have a hard time believing DtO easily oppresses Fresprays.

I had a good turn or tek of anti squadron fire but it was balanced out with all of my other rolls. So the averages are the same.

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.

Well, I agree. But I thought everyone was hating on me a few threads ago about Demolisher being out of balance/out of whack?

Look, I understand that my list has issues. I am fine with that. It makes it balanced. My issue is that there is a list out there that is nearly impossible to counter. I don't like what that does to the games balance. This will get worse with cheaper ships getting added.

What's the list, out of curiousity? Are we still talking about Clon, or something else?

Still about Clon. If the only way to beat it is to play Rieekan or the same list that is not balanced. Thankfully we don't see it often.

Well, I agree. But I thought everyone was hating on me a few threads ago about Demolisher being out of balance/out of whack?

I personally feel its less about demolisher and more about swarm fleets which both sides can field and are equally devastating and as has been stated before the flotillas are just going to make it worse. But everyone was crying that the sky was falling about Ackbar and these days he is not as terrifying as everyone thought. The community is smart and will find a way to combat just about any build.