What area in the world specifically? (Sorry I don't stalk you hard enough yet Ardaedhel!) Hats off to someone leaving that many points behind and doing well, that's crazy.

Also, and I say this in complete ****-stirring Australian sarcasm, these forums have told me that anecdotes and tournament results are not proof of anything! WHERE'S YOUR REAL EVIDENCE MATE?

What area in the world specifically? (Sorry I don't stalk you hard enough yet Ardaedhel!) Hats off to someone leaving that many points behind and doing well, that's crazy.

Also, and I say this in complete ****-stirring Australian sarcasm, these forums have told me that anecdotes and tournament results are not proof of anything! WHERE'S YOUR REAL EVIDENCE MATE?

1) Gotta polish up them stalking skills, bro. San Antonio, TX, USA. Specifically, Regionals two weeks ago.

2) Anecdotes, tournament results, current popularity, mathematical analysis, extensive tactical analysis -- all useless! HOW CAN MIRRORS BE REAL IF OUR EYES AREN'T REAL??

1) What's the meta like in Texas? Genuinely curious, I would love a thorough description if you have the time. The impression I get from the forums, and from that example, is that the bid seems almost overwhelmingly important stateside at the moment (but its hard to know not being there).

2) I don't doubt it. Well I lie, I don't doubt the data, but it would be cool to dig deeper into why. My own opinion is that a well designed second player list can crush just as hard as any first player list.

Haha also as I said, general smart arsery on my part (the MC80 is terribad thread is leaking a little here I admit ).

So, if we are going to get mathematical about this:

• Your optimal bid is whatever amount is one point prior to the "for these points, I can take something that is better than going first" if you are playing Demo and relying on last/first activation.

So then we have to ask "what is that thing". It's definitely not an upgrade (you can't take two demolishers), and it's definitely not a squadron.

It might, however, be another activation, as facing 6 ships going second with 5 ships going first, for instance, is not as clear of an advantage.

To that end, the starting point for the correct optimal bid for the Demolisher list is probably 43 points (one point less than just adding another raider). It may, in fact, be even larger than that (55 points, one point less than a glad) if you think the additional raider is not good enough to give up going first.

Edit: This is also why I think flotillas will massively change the effectiveness of demo rush lists, as you can spam activations and cheap screeners in a way that list doesn't want, and out activate them.

Yeah... If the bid slope gets steeper (18-22 only needed now), I'd go as far as 50 bid and still be pretty confident of winning. That is the (unfortunate) power of demo.

1/8th of your fleet points as a bid?

I'll be honest:

Now I want to fight a 50 point demo bid and show people why that's a terrible amazing awesome super idea.

I built one all the way down to 348 that didn't lose much in the way of effectiveness.

GRRRR, APT and OE on everything, Screed on a Raider, Instigator on another, Demo decked out, and four TIEs.

Ridiculous.

You people have gotten way too crazy on the bids. Zero bid Rieekan is the way forward for me.

Mid-390's here. I ignore the Demo bidding wars in my bids now, instead building with a plan to address it as second player. Demo may still roll everything at 350 bids, but nobody else does, so I think the way forward is to ignore the Demo bids and let those lists duke it out while I get fat off of their race to the bottom.

Mid-390's here. I ignore the Demo bidding wars in my bids now, instead building with a plan to address it as second player. Demo may still roll everything at 350 bids, but nobody else does, so I think the way forward is to ignore the Demo bids and let those lists duke it out while I get fat off of their race to the bottom.

This seems wise to me.

Sooner or later I expect the crazy-high bid bubble to burst. One of three things will happen:

1. The Demolisher title gets errated somehow
2. Anti-clontroper-style fleets/builds/tech becomes more prevalent, and so the clontroper-style fleets will need to cut back on their bid to include more muscle. Rieekan is the prime candidate for this in wave 2.

3. Kind of a variant of point #2, but wave 3's resultant meta may include means to counter the Demolisher-style fleet more directly. The main difference here versus #2 is the wait time, really.

Which isn't to say people won't still want to bid for first. They will. They just won't 30 points want to bid for first. I bid 17 points with my fleet at Adepticon and at the time it was likely the highest bid of the tournament (I can't say this for certain). Even then I felt very uncertain about leaving so many points unspent. These stories of 20+ point bids just seem crazy to me.

1) What's the meta like in Texas? Genuinely curious, I would love a thorough description if you have the time. The impression I get from the forums, and from that example, is that the bid seems almost overwhelmingly important stateside at the moment (but its hard to know not being there).

2) I don't doubt it. Well I lie, I don't doubt the data, but it would be cool to dig deeper into why. My own opinion is that a well designed second player list can crush just as hard as any first player list.

Haha also as I said, general smart arsery on my part (the MC80 is terribad thread is leaking a little here I admit ).

Gotta run right now, but if you look a page or two back on the forums, you'll find the lists all posted on the thread for it (I think you can search for like "happening today regionals" and it'll pop up). Pretty diverse showing, I think.

Begun the Demo wars have...

I realize that Demo is good but it baffles me that so many people seemed so scared of it. I play my buddy who runs a viscous demo build every week and I beat him 80% of the time with various lists. Just like anything else if you play enough against a list you find ways to win. Super low Demo builds are silly imho.

I realize that Demo is good but it baffles me that so many people seemed so scared of it. I play my buddy who runs a viscous demo build every week and I beat him 80% of the time with various lists. Just like anything else if you play enough against a list you find ways to win. Super low Demo builds are silly imho.

His Demolisher may be more effective if placed in a less viscous medium so it can move faster .

Just featuring Demolisher isn't exactly what we're talking about, though. Does your friend run a clontroper-style list with 4+ activations and Raiders/Demolishers? That's where the major bid wars are happening right now. I've run a similar fleet and I can confirm that it really likes going first. Hence the bid wars as those styles of fleet do well overall and are concerned about being outbid by fleets built along similar lines.

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

I realize that Demo is good but it baffles me that so many people seemed so scared of it. I play my buddy who runs a viscous demo build every week and I beat him 80% of the time with various lists. Just like anything else if you play enough against a list you find ways to win. Super low Demo builds are silly imho.

His Demolisher may be more effective if placed in a less viscous medium so it can move faster .

Just featuring Demolisher isn't exactly what we're talking about, though. Does your friend run a clontroper-style list with 4+ activations and Raiders/Demolishers? That's where the major bid wars are happening right now. I've run a similar fleet and I can confirm that it really likes going first. Hence the bid wars as those styles of fleet do well overall and are concerned about being outbid by fleets built along similar lines.

Haha good catch...

No he runs a different build but it doesnt fall apart when his Demo dies which Raider/Glad/Demo builds do from my experience. I dont doubt it likes going first but the reason it does is because if you stop that Demo the list loses its punch and falls apart. All I have had to do it kill that Demo fast and I can mop up the rest of the fleet. Just like any list great players can make good lists dominate and the Radier/Demo is a good list but its tough to fly right and not too forgiving to mistakes against smart players.

Wow, I'll be honest. I bid for second player, and to use my objectives. Idk. Just seems more powerful. The demo last first thing. I ignore. Or kill as quick as I can. Idk. Never been a prob for me.

Wow, I'll be honest. I bid for second player, and to use my objectives. Idk. Just seems more powerful. The demo last first thing. I ignore. Or kill as quick as I can. Idk. Never been a prob for me.

You guys remember those time-lapse AAR videos that somebody was doing a couple months back? We need to make one of those of Clon dismantling somebody to post for every one of these "meh, I could take that, just kill it fast!" posts. Cause, I'll be honest, I thought the same thing when I first saw the list. Before I saw it in action.

Wow, I'll be honest. I bid for second player, and to use my objectives. Idk. Just seems more powerful. The demo last first thing. I ignore. Or kill as quick as I can. Idk. Never been a prob for me.

You guys remember those time-lapse AAR videos that somebody was doing a couple months back? We need to make one of those of Clon dismantling somebody to post for every one of these "meh, I could take that, just kill it fast!" posts.

That would be cool to see but again just because one person does well with a list doesnt mean everyone will. For the record I never said I could kill it fast but I know I can beat it most of the time. I just get annoyed when people post builds and claim they are unstoppable (not that you are saying that). It was the same thing with the Gencon Special and I dont think I have ever lost it. This game is 30% builds and 70% skill which is my main point and the fact that once the community sees a build do well they assume its a winning list when its the player not the list that wins.

Wow, I'll be honest. I bid for second player, and to use my objectives. Idk. Just seems more powerful. The demo last first thing. I ignore. Or kill as quick as I can. Idk. Never been a prob for me.

You guys remember those time-lapse AAR videos that somebody was doing a couple months back? We need to make one of those of Clon dismantling somebody to post for every one of these "meh, I could take that, just kill it fast!" posts. Cause, I'll be honest, I thought the same thing when I first saw the list. Before I saw it in action.

I said this , not as a I'm cocky doesn't concern me to think about it.

I was saying it as, I've gone against it and it's not worried me.. Nor have I really lost against the last first etc.

I view it as a, plan for it. Deploy and move accordingly. And you can deny or mitigate it. My two cents. Either way I always do take a bid of at least 10. If I run against a 5+ activation with demo I might go first. Just in case. But I won't lose 40+ points to worry about it.

Wow, I'll be honest. I bid for second player, and to use my objectives. Idk. Just seems more powerful. The demo last first thing. I ignore. Or kill as quick as I can. Idk. Never been a prob for me.

You guys remember those time-lapse AAR videos that somebody was doing a couple months back? We need to make one of those of Clon dismantling somebody to post for every one of these "meh, I could take that, just kill it fast!" posts. Cause, I'll be honest, I thought the same thing when I first saw the list. Before I saw it in action.

Also there is 3 things my list is weak to, Higher bids, Higher activations, and Reeikan and the first time you saw the list you had your 383 pt 8 cr90 reeikan list that hits all 3 of those weaknesses

You guys remember those time-lapse AAR videos that somebody was doing a couple months back? We need to make one of those of Clon dismantling somebody to post for every one of these "meh, I could take that, just kill it fast!" posts. Cause, I'll be honest, I thought the same thing when I first saw the list. Before I saw it in action.

Yeah the casual dismissal generally amuses me. It's absolutely brutal when it's being used by someone who is well-versed with it. Particularly so when used AGAINST someone who is also not well-versed in it. It doesn't mean it's invincible, just I think people underestimating it only strengthens it. The good news is it's very hard to netlist insomuch as you can't just roll into a tournament with a clontroper-style fleet with no practice and do well. You will get destroyed.

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Or DtO

I personally wouldn't worry to much about the super bids as those players will discover that demo list with equal or more activations are perfectly equipped to beat them as 2nd player.

Basically my list is rather vulnerable to itself

Or DtO