so the tokens have created a paradox? They are unusable unless you modify them to fit the template, but if you modify them to fit the template you render them unusable.

so the tokens have created a paradox? They are unusable unless you modify them to fit the template, but if you modify them to fit the template you render them unusable.

Seems that you nailed the head with a pin.

Hypothetical

Got to love auto correct

ok....... thought so, just covering both bases.

The one thing I will say is I think FFG needs to "Man up" and either give the owners of said templates good ones or just make a decision one way or another....

I can understand some variance with acrylics and products such as base chit printed arcs and cardboard tokens..... but this is unnaceptable variance.

I'm really fed up with ffg as of late.

I mean this is a prize from a very important event

Seems pretty reckless

And I mean come on

First its their poorly written articles.

Then how many people were pissed at the kwing article where they misrepresented how dropping bombs work and numerous people ran out and bought multiple only to be told later ops that was an error on our part

Then they said that the old dmg deck would obsolete, only to then again change their minds and say both are allowed.

Then at a high caliber event one of the prizes (which isn't even a very good one imo) they got the size and guides wrong.

Then the whole I.d fiasco.

Seriously?

Who is running this place?

Monkeys? Lol

I'm afraid to see what will be next

I'm sorry I just feel bad for those who recieve the new (crappy) bomb tokens, and I feel that if they want to use them, I say go ahead.

Cluster mines are not that **** hot anyway.

I think the larger size is better

(maybe that's what they intended? Idk)

Even though they are slightly larger, do you think it's those that'll cost you a game?

Chances are the game was lost before it got to that point

Seriously?

Who is running this place?

Monkeys? Lol

Humans.

And you are behaving like a talking, walking douchebag. Yes, they screwed up plenty of times, but it is not like they do this not for ever already. FFG is unable to write a decent paragraph if their life would depend on it, but at the same time they seem to design great games.

Would be nice if they would hire a few guys to fix their problems sure, but it not like this is something new for them even when the current streak seems **** unlucky and embarrassing.

Seriously?Who is running this place?Monkeys? Lol

Humans.And you are behaving like a talking, walking douchebag. Yes, they screwed up plenty of times, but it is not like they do this not for ever already. FFG is unable to write a decent paragraph if their life would depend on it, but at the same time they seem to design great games.Would be nice if they would hire a few guys to fix their problems sure, but it not like this is something new for them even when the current streak seems **** unlucky and embarrassing.

Welcome to the Internet

I am not a TO because of just this sort of thing but a big factor for me in ye olden days was that one side should not receive a mechanical advantage. A differently shaped template is definitely on that list and I would feel terrible for banning it, but I would and really that is best for both players. Knowing what I know now, that such a template exists, I would make every effort to bring the official cardboard ones, or have some acrylic ones cut that were the correct size and shape, but letting one player use a variant tool that gives them even a small advantage That is how you end up with fights and hurt feelings at the end of a game. Every player who lost to the bad templates is going to feel a little cheated. A few will feel a lot cheated, especially if the damage was by a narrow margin. That is exactly why TOs are given discretion.

That said, if someone shaved the template down to be the same size and shape I would absolutely allow it. But seriously, write FF and ask for working tokens.

I don't have these tokens nor have I ever seen it, but I for sure won't use it given the chance. Careful positioning can land all three tokens on small base ships. Making it bigger increases the chance of blocking certain flight paths at the cost of immediate 3 token hits upon dropping them.

im more against the acrylic mines/debris/asteroids because certain colors (like the OP's black mines) blend into the mat and tend to vanish. Ive ran into **** near invisible gak so many times its frustrating. They have no color like the cardboard stuff do so they just vanish.

I wouldn't play with anyone who tried to argue that their clearly misprinted cluster mines were legal. That is the same type of person who I expect to nudge ships in favorable directions, and engage in other unfair play of similar nature.

What the heck? How is this even a discussion??

I wouldn't play with anyone who tried to argue that their clearly misprinted cluster mines were legal. That is the same type of person who I expect to nudge ships in favorable directions, and engage in other unfair play of similar nature.

What the heck? How is this even a discussion??

I wouldn't play with anyone who tried to argue that their clearly misprinted cluster mines were legal. That is the same type of person who I expect to nudge ships in favorable directions, and engage in other unfair play of similar nature.

What the heck? How is this even a discussion??

Holy cow.

IMO these tokens are fine..I'd probably allow my opponents to use it just for fun.

If it's the bomb tokens that's getting bigger though...

I wouldn't play with anyone who tried to argue that their clearly misprinted cluster mines were legal. That is the same type of person who I expect to nudge ships in favorable directions, and engage in other unfair play of similar nature.

What the heck? How is this even a discussion??

Holy cow.

Dude, holy cow...

If that's the case, my apologies.

(it's late here), and if it was intended towards me, well you know where I stand

Am I okay with someone using these? If everyone uses the same size cluster mines then yes

I wouldn't play with anyone who tried to argue that their clearly misprinted cluster mines were legal. That is the same type of person who I expect to nudge ships in favorable directions, and engage in other unfair play of similar nature.

What the heck? How is this even a discussion??

Holy cow.

Dude, holy cow...

Deleted my post because upon consideration I realized maybe you weren't directing your comment towards me personally

If that's the case, my apologies.

(it's late here), and if it was intended towards me, well you know where I stand

Apology accepted, thank you. No residual feelings at all.

No, I wasn't singling you out. I made a point not to take mental notes of who was on what side when reading through the thread, actually.

Just in case anyone else feels like I am going after them personally, I'll expand on what I've initially said:

I am not calling any one a cheater. I'm saying that, as a community, I don't believe for a second that we are expecting this issue to go ignored by FFG. It was a screw up, but it happens. FFG's customer service has always gone above and beyond when it comes to replacing mistakes. Without even questioning whether you broke your peg off, or if it came that way, they will just send you a new model. They'll fix this mistake also, one way or another.

So, if it is unanimously agreed upon that this was a mistake, then what I don't understand is how anyone can argue that it is ok to use them unless they are trying to gain an unfair advantage on me. That is the red flag for me, and is what would cause me to expect other forms of foul play from that player.

Here is what I propose: everyone take it upon themselves to just put their mine tokens to the side, stack them on top of each another to make a totem, then channel all their anger into them(instead of at FFG or anyone else) until an official statement is released. I'm sure that what they decide to do about it will be to the best of all our interests.

Until then, no, don't allow them in your tournaments. They can't be deployed properly, and even if everyone using cluster mines has the acrylic tokens, there are still people who most likely did not have the super tokens as an option when they were building their list. We're lucky that this happened on a lesser-used token set, but we need to handle it as if it was something more powerful. If we accept this as OK, then we are saying that we are alright with FFG including cards and tokens with additional benefits to tournament packs in the future. Want +3 Super Veteran Instincts? Sure, just come rank highly in tournaments.

You know, at least half the field uses aftermarket range and movement templates. I guarantee these don't all match up evenly to the cardboard right-out-of-the-box sets, yet nobody calls a judge over. If one freaking millimeter on deploying a template nobody even uses is going to make you call foul in a game where ships get accidentally bumped countless times during a game, you might be taking the game a tad bit too seriously.

You know, at least half the field uses aftermarket range and movement templates. I guarantee these don't all match up evenly to the cardboard right-out-of-the-box sets, yet nobody calls a judge over. If one freaking millimeter on deploying a template nobody even uses is going to make you call foul in a game where ships get accidentally bumped countless times during a game, you might be taking the game a tad bit too seriously.

It's pretty well documented that even FFG agrees that the acrylics probably have less variance than the cardboard out of the box. The template measurements are pretty easy to get right, which is exactly why FFG allows third party stuff. They didn't used to, but outcry from the community changed that.

You know, at least half the field uses aftermarket range and movement templates. I guarantee these don't all match up evenly to the cardboard right-out-of-the-box sets, yet nobody calls a judge over. If one freaking millimeter on deploying a template nobody even uses is going to make you call foul in a game where ships get accidentally bumped countless times during a game, you might be taking the game a tad bit too seriously.

The issue isn't a variance of just 1 mm. It is a decently large variance in the template overall as well as the fact that these templates are sub-par compared to anything else available or that has been given as prize support and should be considered a misprint.

Regardless of how often they're used, they are not something I'd allow at one of my tournaments.

I wouldn't play with anyone who tried to argue that their clearly misprinted cluster mines were legal. That is the same type of person who I expect to nudge ships in favorable directions, and engage in other unfair play of similar nature.

What the heck? How is this even a discussion??

Holy cow.

Dude, holy cow...

Deleted my post because upon consideration I realized maybe you weren't directing your comment towards me personally

If that's the case, my apologies.

(it's late here), and if it was intended towards me, well you know where I stand

Apology accepted, thank you. No residual feelings at all.

No, I wasn't singling you out. I made a point not to take mental notes of who was on what side when reading through the thread, actually.

Just in case anyone else feels like I am going after them personally, I'll expand on what I've initially said:

I am not calling any one a cheater. I'm saying that, as a community, I don't believe for a second that we are expecting this issue to go ignored by FFG. It was a screw up, but it happens. FFG's customer service has always gone above and beyond when it comes to replacing mistakes. Without even questioning whether you broke your peg off, or if it came that way, they will just send you a new model. They'll fix this mistake also, one way or another.

So, if it is unanimously agreed upon that this was a mistake, then what I don't understand is how anyone can argue that it is ok to use them unless they are trying to gain an unfair advantage on me. That is the red flag for me, and is what would cause me to expect other forms of foul play from that player.

Here is what I propose: everyone take it upon themselves to just put their mine tokens to the side, stack them on top of each another to make a totem, then channel all their anger into them(instead of at FFG or anyone else) until an official statement is released. I'm sure that what they decide to do about it will be to the best of all our interests.

Until then, no, don't allow them in your tournaments. They can't be deployed properly, and even if everyone using cluster mines has the acrylic tokens, there are still people who most likely did not have the super tokens as an option when they were building their list. We're lucky that this happened on a lesser-used token set, but we need to handle it as if it was something more powerful. If we accept this as OK, then we are saying that we are alright with FFG including cards and tokens with additional benefits to tournament packs in the future. Want +3 Super Veteran Instincts? Sure, just come rank highly in tournaments.

It was late when I read your post

For whatever reason, I thought it was directed at me, and I'm glad it wasn't,

Just a misunderstanding, and we all good

Your right ffg customer support is the best I've seen

I think if anything chances are they'll allow you to send them in for a replacement.

However what a nuisance. You still have to take the time etc, and for some be a bigger pain than for others

If that was the case in may just keep mine I I get a set, just due to them becoming rare lol

You know, at least half the field uses aftermarket range and movement templates. I guarantee these don't all match up evenly to the cardboard right-out-of-the-box sets, yet nobody calls a judge over. If one freaking millimeter on deploying a template nobody even uses is going to make you call foul in a game where ships get accidentally bumped countless times during a game, you might be taking the game a tad bit too seriously.

It's pretty well documented that even FFG agrees that the acrylics probably have less variance than the cardboard out of the box. The template measurements are pretty easy to get right, which is exactly why FFG allows third party stuff. They didn't used to, but outcry from the community changed that.

It's obvious that Krynn is a troll. No logical person would continue to defend such a nonsensical position.

You're just giving the troll the attention they want.

The ones I got off ETSEY

Are nice and actually fit the template. Just saying.lol

PAY2WIN, you now have to upgrade your cardboard tokens to acrylic tokens if you want to be competitive.

Hey man, thanks for understanding

It was late when I read your post

For whatever reason, I thought it was directed at me, and I'm glad it wasn't,

Just a misunderstanding, and we all good

Your right ffg customer support is the best I've seen

I think if anything chances are they'll allow you to send them in for a replacement.

However what a nuisance. You still have to take the time etc, and for some be a bigger pain than for others

If that was the case in may just keep mine I I get a set, just due to them becoming rare lol

Having to pay for shipping to have them replaced would indeed be quite annoying, but I'm not sure if they'd require you to do so. I'll toss you a torch and pitchfork if it comes to that, though.

You know, at least half the field uses aftermarket range and movement templates. I guarantee these don't all match up evenly to the cardboard right-out-of-the-box sets, yet nobody calls a judge over. If one freaking millimeter on deploying a template nobody even uses is going to make you call foul in a game where ships get accidentally bumped countless times during a game, you might be taking the game a tad bit too seriously.

It's pretty well documented that even FFG agrees that the acrylics probably have less variance than the cardboard out of the box. The template measurements are pretty easy to get right, which is exactly why FFG allows third party stuff. They didn't used to, but outcry from the community changed that.

Also unless it was changed I believe they stated that if a player had an issue with another using 3rd party templates, then they could both use the one set

That's my understanding as well.

I've actually never played with or against anyone with acrylic rulers. If I ever did, I'd request for us both to play with the same set. I'm not taking the game too seriously-- just making it a fair game. No amount of a care-free attitude can change the fact that playing Tackle Football against "Timmy Two-Ton" isn't fun for very long, after all.

At the Chicago regional, the TO actually got replacement acrylic cluster mines from FFG that are the correct size. Said he was instructed to throw away the old ones.