And rankings like this which only look at volume of appearances rather than anything more nuanced only exacerbate the problem of the feedback loop.

There's no evidence to confirm or deny that but I can't see it helping, no.

A ranking that said "these are powerful and played a lot, these are powerful but not played because X & Y and if that changed then they might get used more, these are actually less powerful but see play sometimes because of Z" is quite constructive.

A ranking that says "these are powerful because they're played. These are rubbish because they're not played" only reinforces the hivemind, inadvertently sucking more players into it.

Sadly I had this happen locally. A person that just started was putting together lists so I asked what made him do it, he was relatively new at the time, "Saw this post on jousting so I used those numbers to put this list together." I then destroyed him with "inefficient jousters" and he was flabbergasted. I then explained to him that those numbers were only 1/4 the story. Needless to say, he is a much better pilot now and uses these types of posts just to see what might be in an out of town meta.

Just saying, dear OP, i did read the opener to this tier list.

It does not mention over how many months you take tournaments into account and if and how new expansions affect your lists. You have a link towards list juggler but you should at least also explain in your text what you use over what period of time.

I appreciate the effort behind what you try to do, but i hope you will consider the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

I mean if people ask why Soontir is not in rank SS this is a very legitimate question and furtheremore if even he is not in this rank, who else would be? This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

i hope you will considerate the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

While considerate isn't a real word, I agree with your sentiment!

Another suggestion i have is to NOT base yourself on statistics for your tier list.

I mean in a lot of other (computer but also tabletop) games there are tier lists purely based on a subjective perception of a group of people that know the game! This is not representative, but they get a lot less negative discussion than your method. And its easier to update every month...

I mean i don't want to convince you here, but there you could just justify your choices by saying: That was my gut feeling!

i hope you will considerate the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

While considerate isn't a real word, I agree with your sentiment!

Also: edited!

i hope you will considerate the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

While considerate isn't a real word, I agree with your sentiment!

i hope you will considerate the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

While considerate isn't a real word, I agree with your sentiment!

Thanks, i am not a native english speaker so i don't take this too harsh xd

Also: edited!

Considerate is a real word, I don't know what Leader's talking about; It's just that you meant consider, the verb, rather than considerate, the adjective.

Edit: Goddamn blue ninjas!

i hope you will considerate the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

While considerate isn't a real word, I agree with your sentiment!

Thanks, i am not a native english speaker so i don't take this too harsh xd

Also: edited!

Considerate is a real word, I don't know what Leader's talking about; It's just that you meant consider, the verb, rather than considerate, the adjective.

Edit: Goddamn blue ninjas!

Ok, but it's not a verb.

i hope you will considerate the input that people try to give you with a little more patience.

This is constructive criticism after all and i suggest you take it into account.

While considerate isn't a real word, I agree with your sentiment!

Thanks, i am not a native english speaker so i don't take this too harsh xd

Also: edited!

Don't worry, I was only ribbing you! :-)

The usage WAS supposed to be just a starting point, with my own judgement and community comments moving them around.

But as I got more and more unhelpful and downright rude comments like,

I'll continue to get a genuine laugh from each rank post you do, so I mean at least I get something out of the exchange.

It started to frankly piss me off, enough to make me WANT to dive deeper into the side that people were arguing against.

I think part of it was the guy who started doing Rebel ships without asking - he's much more dogmatic about usage=rankings, and defending him cemented my position in a bad fashion.

Another part of it is definitely the notion I had for somehow linking the rankings to usage stats so the tiers changed as the game did with little to no interference from me - just updating entries when new archetypes appeared.

Blue Five, I DID change several rankings in early threads thanks to your comments, but all you gave me in later threads is, "Oh, you're so wrong," which is useless and annoying. Apparently you never noticed and thought I was ignoring you?

Another suggestion i have is to NOT base yourself on statistics for your tier list.

I mean in a lot of other (computer but also tabletop) games there are tier lists purely based on a subjective perception of a group of people that know the game! This is not representative, but they get a lot less negative discussion than your method. And its easier to update every month...

I mean i don't want to convince you here, but there you could just justify your choices by saying: That was my gut feeling!

Blue Five, I DID change several rankings in early threads thanks to your comments, but all you gave me in later threads is, "Oh, you're so wrong," which is useless and annoying. Apparently you never noticed and thought I was ignoring you?

I did notice the justifications change, but it's still based on the same fundamentally flawed premise that List Juggler popularity correlates directly to power.

You'd be much better off with a pure gut based approach branded as your own opinion rather than trying to create an official netlisting guide.

You'd also be better off not making a new thread for every ship, partly because it's a little spammy and partly because your original works get buried.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the responses you have received has been based on your attitude? You outright dismiss anything that isn't put into ListJuggler, even though the majority of premiere events is using Tome. Hell, your attitude seems to be, if you aren't using ListJuggler, you are not being a good part of the community.

Honest question - if Fel isn't SS, then no ship in the game is. Given that, why have the category at all? Another way of saying it is, if you want 'SS' in your classification, why not also have the following? ...

'OMG - Ships in this category have accepted Ronald Reagen as their lord and saviour, and follow a strict code that allows them to only eat candle wax.'

BTW, I too try and make Sabers work all the time, but they do have trouble. Here's my latest attempt, it's been decidedly meh:

==================

Captain Oicunn (48)

VT-49 Decimator (42), Predator (3), Fleet Officer (3)

Saber Squadron Pilot (26) x 2

TIE Interceptor (21), Push the Limit (3), Autothrusters (2)

48 points decimator = Parol Leader, Gunner, Vader

Try it, its good. It kills aces. At least prior to the U-Boot menace

And maybe it buys the Sabers enough time to do something.

Or even Oicunn + Captive + Vader

I thing I am going to try this one.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, that the responses you have received has been based on your attitude? You outright dismiss anything that isn't put into ListJuggler, even though the majority of premiere events is using Tome. Hell, your attitude seems to be, if you aren't using ListJuggler, you are not being a good part of the community.

You know, this is the first time anyone's even mentioned Tome to me as an alternate source. That's the kind of helpful comment I could have used back with that first TIE/LN article.

So is it still in beta? How can I get access to it, since ten minutes of looking for a simple download link has left me quite frustrated about its actual existence?

Blue Five, I DID change several rankings in early threads thanks to your comments, but all you gave me in later threads is, "Oh, you're so wrong," which is useless and annoying. Apparently you never noticed and thought I was ignoring you?

I did notice the justifications change, but it's still based on the same fundamentally flawed premise that List Juggler popularity correlates directly to power.

You'd be much better off with a pure gut based approach branded as your own opinion rather than trying to create an official netlisting guide.

You'd also be better off not making a new thread for every ship, partly because it's a little spammy and partly because your original works get buried.

Really? Do the entire tier list for a faction in one thread, and sit and watch everyone talk about how their pet pilot they used in a tournament a year ago and got top 8 with somehow didn't end up in S-Rank?

My plan was to compile 'em, but I guess I can just do it in one go, compiling it all together - especially if I can find a bloody download link for this Tome software.

I believe Tome is only available through their retailer site. And I am pretty certain they don't have a results upload portion, since I believe the stores have to send in the results information themselves.

Sorry I did not realize someone who would start something like this would not realize that Cyrodex isn't the official software from FFG.

I've tried to be helpful when I could but I wasn't entirely sure what you were going for here so it wasn't always easy.

I believe Tome is only available through their retailer site. And I am pretty certain they don't have a results upload portion, since I believe the stores have to send in the results information themselves.

Sorry I did not realize someone who would start something like this would not realize that Cyrodex isn't the official software from FFG.

Hmmm, match insulting tone, or just answer the question?

Answer the question.

yes, I knew that it was not the official recording, and that in fact there did exist an FFG-owned piece of software that did track tournaments. However, I wasn't able to find any access to that information, and was hoping that you might have something useful, such as a link.

You? Useful? Unlikely, but I had hoped - oh, there's that tone again.

The real question: Is Cryodex/List Juggler a representative sample - that it might not be all of the results, but enough to serve as an image of the greater game?

Well, it's had 170,000 points put into it per month on average over the last three months. That's 1700 lists, which is a fair few. For "the cut" results it's had over 33,000 results entered into it - 330 lists. Also consider that it definitely includes the regionals and bigger store championships, and I'd be willing to use it as positive source material.

Unless you or someone else have seen results from TOME that would cast using List Juggler into question, at least from "the cut" results? And if not, why are you so quick to question it?

I've tried to be helpful when I could but I wasn't entirely sure what you were going for here so it wasn't always easy.

At first, I thought, "Well, a tier list would show beginning players which ships are strongest (easiest to use, give consistent results, and are powerful), allow experienced players to see which ships have moved up and down in the rankings (Fat Han for example isn't seen in hardly the same numbers he used to command), and give the devs an idea of not only what's being used (which they knew already), but why."

Last one might not be all that necessary, and I thought it would be a fun project to have on my hands while I wait for allergy season to die down so I can move from this semi-upright position that allows for maximum oxygen intake. But it's been less fun than I thought, what with an unfortunate amount of hostility right from the start (about Obsidian Squadron Pilot, the worst TIE pilot around!)

So I'm going to sit and consider the approach for a day or two - but I'm not stopping, if only to spite sithborg.

I can't give you the **** link to something I don't have. Also, Tome is the official tournament software, similar to Cyrodex. FFG does not have a ListJuggler equivalent. Unlike Cyrodex, you can't just upload tournament data from Tome to ListJuggler. Which is why some tournaments won't be in there.

This has got to be the best quote I have read in a while. Im going to take this to my Corporate Audit meeting tomorrow and throw it out when people try and claim they are compliant to policies, but have no evidence to back it up.

If you want to ignore outliers, sure. But, outliers is where the game gets really interesting...

Hey iamfanboy, i will say it again: I do appreciate your commitment and effort to make these tier lists.

Sadly as it seems, any criticism immediately makes you go into defensive mode. Well it is your baby. Do with it what you want. Just if it is reportedly not that useful to the people it aims for, then why make the effort at all?

Even if you base yourself on list juggler and if your work is 100% correct and then multiple players here tell you that they think something must be wrong, then maybe it's just the wrong method you are using.

To me, as they are, these tier lists just have some pilots that are a bit off of what they do represent, list juggler or not! Which is no big deal because i know the meta quite well.

But for the people really looking for these lists, namely the new players, i think this can be quite misleading at some points, and that is where the real problem lies.

Just to clarify this, you were not rude to me and i have no quarrel with you. I just want to discuss the underlying problems i see here!

I can't give you the **** link to something I don't have. Also, Tome is the official tournament software, similar to Cyrodex. FFG does not have a ListJuggler equivalent. Unlike Cyrodex, you can't just upload tournament data from Tome to ListJuggler. Which is why some tournaments won't be in there.

I have some good news and some bad news then some slightly good news then some bad news again...

Good news: Uploading tournaments run on Tome to ListJuggler is possible!

Bad news: You have to translate their save file into something ListJuggler readable.

Good news: I could totally make a converter to go from their format to ListJuggler's format.

Bad news: Their format is still beta and always changing, I'm lazy, and you guys don't pay me.