Can, or should, a non force user, or someone with no master/holocron/etc, be allowed to take ranks in saber with their xp between session? I'm thinking no, that this particular skill should be more story driven than others, even if the non force sensitive player has a saber. Thoughts?

Let me just stop you right there. This whole prejudiced attitude against non-force users and their ability to wield a lightsaber really needs to stop. You've got a great question on your hands, why muddy it up with this nonsense? We now have multiple examples in the canon of characters who fight using a lightsaber despite not having the force (or having any understanding of the Force even if they do have it). Han, Leia, Finn, Vizla, Grievous... even Cassie Cryar were all were able to fight with a lightsaber. At the end of the day, the ones with natural aptitude and training fared the best; same as any other weapon.

It depends. Just because we have "styles" broadly speaking doesn't mean that that a teacher or a holocron is the only way to start down that path; some will learn more generally from the school of hard knocks, others will learn as a matter of survival or from a style of fighting familiar to their culture; otherwise will use the lightsaber as nothing more then a impromptu blowtorch. My character personally learnt his from raw experience and the soft whispers from a sith artefact, resulting in a largely mobile style that use's the unpredictability of a guard strito to deliver blows. Yeah, being trained as an assassin for a disembodied spirit has certain perks. XD

One point of the OT was that the Jedi were all but gone and it took a new bright light, a different perspective to all those that had come before to create a new order. They might have taught him but old textbooks and disillusioned Jedi Knights can only teach so much as the rest of it is self taught at this point.

It's also worth noting that force senstives don't have to pick up a lightsaber. There are other cool ways methods of being a force user.

There's nothing stopping it mechanics-wise, but a gm may not allow training until they find some sort of resource or person that can show them the ropes, the same way you might restrict a Bounty Hunter from being able to buy Restricted weaponry at any old flea market. Fun and engaging adventuring should trump munchkin crafting.

There's limited benefit for non-force users using a Lightsaber over a strong Vibro weapon.

It will be a non career skill, and the Specializations, Marauder for example, have talents like Feral Strength that only effect attacks using the Brawl or Melee skill, not the Lightsaber skill. There is also the cost of the crystal, or the quest needed to acquire one to consider.

But allowing a mundane PC a chance to get a hold of a lightsaber may be a catalyst in them picking up a Force tree like Force-Sensitive Emergent or Exile. If that's the way the player wants to grow their character I wouldn't discourage it.

With all that said, in my current Edge of the Empire Campaign, we have 3 Force and Destiny characters in the group, we are 120-140 experience deep, having finished a short bonus adventure, and none of us has constructed a lightsaber yet.

We've got crystals, but so far have not had the requisite 3 days needed to construct them. It will also be daunting difficulty since we don't know how.

My Nautolan Armorer went Axe to Axe against a hut, using his 8 soak to absorb blows that would have killed any other character. A lightsaber would have come in handy, my 5 Brawn combined with the vibroaxe was about the only thing we had that could do damage through the hut's 10 soak.

There's nothing stopping it mechanics-wise, but a gm may not allow training until they find some sort of resource or person that can show them the ropes, the same way you might restrict a Bounty Hunter from being able to buy Restricted weaponry at any old flea market. Fun and engaging adventuring should trump munchkin crafting.

There's limited benefit for non-force users using a Lightsaber over a strong Vibro weapon.

It will be a non career skill, and the Specializations, Marauder for example, have talents like Feral Strength that only effect attacks using the Brawl or Melee skill, not the Lightsaber skill. There is also the cost of the crystal, or the quest needed to acquire one to consider.

Shii-Cho Knight can be picked up by non-Force sensitives and used to great effect. It will grant you Lightsaber as a career skill. Note that, despite the name, there's no reason to assume that the character is schooled in actual Shii-Cho techniques of the Jedi just as not every character with the Assassin specialization is actually an assassin. I've used Shii-Cho Knight to build a Morgukai (Nikto warrior cultist) and it was very effective.

Let me just stop you right there. This whole prejudiced attitude against non-force users and their ability to wield a lightsaber really needs to stop.

Yeah! Stop with the bigotry against non-Forcies! Attaca!! Attaca!! Seriously? Might want to dial back your rhetoric, it's just a game about space wizards with laser swords.

You've got a great question on your hands, why muddy it up with this nonsense?

....because that is at the root of his question. He can't remove the question about non-Force users using a traditionally Force user weapon...and have it be the same question. You're basically asking him to not talk about cars...in a question specifically about cars.

There's nothing stopping it mechanics-wise, but a gm may not allow training until they find some sort of resource or person that can show them the ropes, the same way you might restrict a Bounty Hunter from being able to buy Restricted weaponry at any old flea market. Fun and engaging adventuring should trump munchkin crafting.

There's limited benefit for non-force users using a Lightsaber over a strong Vibro weapon.

It will be a non career skill, and the Specializations, Marauder for example, have talents like Feral Strength that only effect attacks using the Brawl or Melee skill, not the Lightsaber skill. There is also the cost of the crystal, or the quest needed to acquire one to consider.

Shii-Cho Knight can be picked up by non-Force sensitives and used to great effect. It will grant you Lightsaber as a career skill. Note that, despite the name, there's no reason to assume that the character is schooled in actual Shii-Cho techniques of the Jedi just as not every character with the Assassin specialization is actually an assassin. I've used Shii-Cho Knight to build a Morgukai (Nikto warrior cultist) and it was very effective.

And the Shii-Cho Knight can for the most part do just fine with just a regular Melee weapon, such as a vibro-ax, as only two of the spec's talents requires a Lightsaber to use, and both of them can be easily bypassed without losing very much.

My Nautolan Armorer went Axe to Axe against a hut, using his 8 soak to absorb blows that would have killed any other character. A lightsaber would have come in handy, my 5 Brawn combined with the vibroaxe was about the only thing we had that could do damage through the hut's 10 soak.

Lightsabers are clearly awesome, but blasters with pierce or vehicle weapon or thermal detonators, or a ton of other heavy weapons would have done the job as well. Just saying that high soak wills are not an exclusive job for lightsabers. Having a highly restricted weapon is not a good choice when cheaper and a little less restricted weapons will do a better job.

Thermal Detonators are ®!

And we've got 3 Jedi-guys in our group, so lightsabers are absolutely what we need for all the force talents that work with them. Not a lot of ranks of Feral Strength in any of the Force User trees.

Thermal Detonators are ®!

And we've got 3 Jedi-guys in our group, so lightsabers are absolutely what we need for all the force talents that work with them. Not a lot of ranks of Feral Strength in any of the Force User trees.

Thermal Detonators are ®!

And we've got 3 Jedi-guys in our group, so lightsabers are absolutely what we need for all the force talents that work with them. Not a lot of ranks of Feral Strength in any of the Force User trees.

Lightsabers are ® as well, but as I said, sabers are awesome, so more power to your group if they manage to get some.

Thermal Detonators are ®!

And we've got 3 Jedi-guys in our group, so lightsabers are absolutely what we need for all the force talents that work with them. Not a lot of ranks of Feral Strength in any of the Force User trees.

Not just that, but you're also hard pressed to find Lethal Blows, Point Blank, Barrage,or Deadly Accuracy in the FaD trees.

Well, lack of Deadly Accuracy makes sense, as the designers probably didn't want to make it too easy for a PC to jack their lightsaber damage too high too quickly, or at least not without paying some significant cost (such as having to buy a non-career spec that doesn't include a Force Rating talent). Same with Lethal Blows given most 'saber crystals can be modded to have a crit rating of 1.

Let's face it, a PC with a Ilum, Mephite, or Krayt Dragon Pearl crystal in their lightsaber that's fully modded for damage combined with Deadly Accuracy and a few ranks of Lethal Blows would make things horrifically difficult for a GM looking to create an encounter that can challenge such a PC without it running the dangers of being too lethal or daunting for other PCs.

I may begin running a post-RotJ campaign in December (or January of next year). I intend to give out only Kimber stones.

I may begin running a post-RotJ campaign in December (or January of next year). I intend to give out only Kimber stones.

I ran my group through the gm kit adventure where they find crystals in the caverns of the Imperial controlled planet.

I let them know the force was pulling them all in different directions, then ran them through the personalized mini challenges to recover their own crystal. I wrote a different one for each of them, with some minor morality lessons and a spiritual experience to make it special for em, in case they wanted some immersion. Half the time they just want to roll dice and kill stuff.

Recently a new player joined the group, so I had him come in as a rebel rescuer. Gave me an excuse to have them all captured and tortured by an Inquisitor. Wrote notes for a little one-session adventure.

I find creating my own adventures all I need is a general outline and I can wing the rest. Since I'm a big star wars nut and know the universe.

As far as a lightsaber crystal that's not too powerful, the FaD Beta had what I would generally deem to be "starter crystals" in that the began with Damage 6, Crit 3, Breach 1, and Sunder, with two +1 Damage Mods, a single -1 to crit rating mod, and a single +1 rank of Vicious mod. Cost was 8000 credits (I think, could be wrong), and in the Beta game I ran they worked pretty well to let the PCs have lightsabers that didn't run the risk of becoming too powerful too quickly, since at best they'd be Damage 8, Crit 2, Breach 1, Sunder, Vicious 1.

I largely based the notion of lower-grade Adegan crystal that I posted up on my blog a while back off of the FaD Beta crystal, in that it was a way to let a PC have a lightsaber fairly early on (conclusion of first or second adventure) but that it wouldn't too drastically alter or upset the balance of power given that it couldn't be as extensively modified as the majority of the other 'saber crystals.

I seem to recall Baron Tagge was vaguely competent with a Lightsaber. As noted, it's illegal, and exotic, but so are disintegrator pistols. Ultimately, you can use a saber even if not force sensitive - you just need to be good, and dedicated to practice.

Training droids equipped with sabers exist too - Vader went through the **** things by the gross - and more expensive versions (like PROXY) would be quite capable of 'proper' instruction.

I seem to recall Baron Tagge was vaguely competent with a Lightsaber. As noted, it's illegal, and exotic, but so are disintegrator pistols. Ultimately, you can use a saber even if not force sensitive - you just need to be good, and dedicated to practice.

Training droids equipped with sabers exist too - Vader went through the **** things by the gross - and more expensive versions (like PROXY) would be quite capable of 'proper' instruction.

You've also got the Tapani Saber Rakes from the WEG supplement Lords of the Expanse, who were quite skilled in their usage of lightfoils, which were effectively knock-off lightsabers (could still cut and maim pretty well, but were prone to shorting out at inopportune moments. And the initial crowd of Saber Rakes had nobody to instruct them, and became quite proficient with the weapon.

A lightfoil was still deemed to be just as illegal and restricted by the Empire, though most of the ruling powers in the Expanse didn't make quite as much of a fuss over it, and "ornamental" lightfoil hilts (that only ignited if the well-hidden activation button was pressed) were quite the rage amongst the younger nobles.

The Lightsabre skill is unavailable in either AoR or EotE, so, by RAW, it cannot be a choice without the GM's approval for any Career in those game lines.

So it is my opinion that unless the GM approves otherwise, the only way a PC from one of those lines can take the skill without requiring GM approval, is to acquire a F&D Specialization that makes the Skill available. Those Specializations also give Talent that can be used, often with weapons other than Lightsabres, but it's important to keep in mind many of those Talents require a Force Rating.

I think it's all been said but just in case, the RAW is only that the PC must take a Specialization that makes the Skill available. Those Specializations also give Talent that can be used, often with weapons other than Lightsabres, but it's important to keep in mind many of those Talents require a Force Rating.

So any other answer that restricts a PC from acquiring the Lightsabre skill is a person one and should be discussed within each group.

I think it's all been said but just in case, the RAW is only that the PC must take a Specialization that makes the Skill available. Those Specializations also give Talent that can be used, often with weapons other than Lightsabres, but it's important to keep in mind many of those Talents require a Force Rating.

So any other answer that restricts a PC from acquiring the Lightsabre skill is a person one and should be discussed within each group.

That's not the RAW. By the RAW, anybody can learn Lightsaber without those Specializations. They most likely have to pay a little more for a non-career skill, but they may have picked it up as a career skill through Well Rounded. Note too that Humans can use one of their species skill picks on Lightsaber (unless they start in a Specialization that has it as a career skill).

You are correct I was thinking of it a a Career skill. In any case the skill is unavailable in either AoR or EotE, so, by RAW, it cannot be a choice without the GM's approval for any Career in those game lines.

I'll update my post.

I think it's all been said but just in case, the RAW is only that the PC must take a Specialization that makes the Skill available. Those Specializations also give Talent that can be used, often with weapons other than Lightsabres, but it's important to keep in mind many of those Talents require a Force Rating.

So any other answer that restricts a PC from acquiring the Lightsabre skill is a person one and should be discussed within each group.

That's not the RAW. By the RAW, anybody can learn Lightsaber without those Specializations. They most likely have to pay a little more for a non-career skill, but they may have picked it up as a career skill through Well Rounded. Note too that Humans can use one of their species skill picks on Lightsaber (unless they start in a Specialization that has it as a career skill).

You are correct I was thinking of it a a Career skill. In any case the skill is unavailable in either AoR or EotE, so, by RAW, it cannot be a choice without the GM's approval for any Career in those game lines.

I'll update my post.

Though lightsaber themselves can used with agi and brawn in those lines if you want to limit raw to those. If not than it is just brawn, but the skill itself can easily picked up as a non-career skill. And btw, Humans directly starting with lightsaber is even fitting, as mentioned there is a whole planet were ligthsaber duelling is still "hip" even when they have no shred of force ability. Well, at least most of them, a force sensitive could easily hide in all those crazy saber rakes in the tapani sector.

I think it's all been said but just in case, the RAW is only that the PC must take a Specialization that makes the Skill available. Those Specializations also give Talent that can be used, often with weapons other than Lightsabres, but it's important to keep in mind many of those Talents require a Force Rating.

So any other answer that restricts a PC from acquiring the Lightsabre skill is a person one and should be discussed within each group.

That's not the RAW. By the RAW, anybody can learn Lightsaber without those Specializations. They most likely have to pay a little more for a non-career skill, but they may have picked it up as a career skill through Well Rounded. Note too that Humans can use one of their species skill picks on Lightsaber (unless they start in a Specialization that has it as a career skill).

You are correct I was thinking of it a a Career skill. In any case the skill is unavailable in either AoR or EotE, so, by RAW, it cannot be a choice without the GM's approval for any Career in those game lines.

I'll update my post.

I'm not sure I'd say the Lightsaber skill is unavailable, after all NPCs in those lines still have it. Would you similarly not allow EotE or FaD to take ranks in Knowledge (Warfare)?

Though lightsaber themselves can used with agi and brawn in those lines if you want to limit raw to those. If not than it is just brawn, but the skill itself can easily picked up as a non-career skill. And btw, Humans directly starting with lightsaber is even fitting, as mentioned there is a whole planet were ligthsaber duelling is still "hip" even when they have no shred of force ability. Well, at least most of them, a force sensitive could easily hide in all those crazy saber rakes in the tapani sector.

Yes they can use either Agility or Brawn but unskilled unless the GM agrees to give them the Skill. Since we now have F&D the Player can now use any Attribute depending on the Specialization they choose to take.

I'm not sure I'd say the Lightsaber skill is unavailable, after all NPCs in those lines still have it. Would you similarly not allow EotE or FaD to take ranks in Knowledge (Warfare)?

But Lightsabre isn't listed as a Skill except for NPCs, and any mention of it is a suggestion that the GM can allow a PC to have if they choose to.

Unlike the other Knowledges, Knowledge Warfare is very specific (too specific in my opinion as half the description is basically covered by Knowledge Education already). The half that is Education is easy get by reading histories and tactical theory so it's not especially useful as an independent skill anyway. The other part that deals with actual Skill and implementation of current ground and space tactics is more something you're likely only going to get if you have military training. So yes, I would limit it to the Military Careers in AoR unless a PC has a reason to know it, like being ex-military. Basically it's the same as the Lightsabre Skill for those that don't really have a good reason to have it in their background.

It comes down to whats already recommend in the AoR and EotE RAW, if the GM thinks it's appropriate, the Player has a good enough reason or some other in game thing, then give them the skill. For me I'd play it as I've described earlier because it makes sense to me.

There's nothing specifically saying you can't, but where's the fun in learning lightsaber skills off camera?! I want to play that stuff up for awesomesauce if it's my character, or in my campaign for one of my players. Learning it off camera is....meh. And who wants a meh campaign?

Exactly. The most memorable scenes in ESB are Luke's training sessions with Yoda -- they reveal a lot about the protagonist. I think I've had "on camera" training sessions with every Jedi PC I've ever ran -- I want to see the character's character!

There's nothing specifically saying you can't, but where's the fun in learning lightsaber skills off camera?! I want to play that stuff up for awesomesauce if it's my character, or in my campaign for one of my players. Learning it off camera is....meh. And who wants a meh campaign?

Exactly. The most memorable scenes in ESB are Luke's training sessions with Yoda -- they reveal a lot about the protagonist. I think I've had "on camera" training sessions with every Jedi PC I've ever ran -- I want to see the character's character!

In games, I despise on-screen training. It just doesn't entertain me at all.

In games, I despise on-screen training. It just doesn't entertain me at all.

All you need is... a montage!