Can, or should, a non force user, or someone with no master/holocron/etc, be allowed to take ranks in saber with their xp between session? I'm thinking no, that this particular skill should be more story driven than others, even if the non force sensitive player has a saber. Thoughts?

That depends. Perhaps a character who gets a lightsaber can justify ranks if they have one. Lightsaber forms are all based on sword fighting anyway, so with enough practice they can develop something that feels right.

Kind of? Even though it's not RAW, I try and justify all my skill raises somehow. Something that got used in the game, something I could pratice off screen between jobs, somehow otherwise building it into the story, even if its handwaved by my "Conan on the Beach" training montage.

(Basil Poledouris soundtrack completely optional)

Kind of? Even though it's not RAW, I try and justify my skill raises somehow. Something that got used in the game, something I could pratice off screen between jobs, somehow otherwise building it into the story, even if its handwaved by my "Conan on the Beach" training montage.

(Basil Poledouris soundtrack completely optional)

Lies. Deception. Untruth.

Basil Poledouris is not optional.

Kind of? Even though it's not RAW, I try and justify all my skill raises somehow. Something that got used in the game, something I could pratice off screen between jobs, somehow otherwise building it into the story, even if its handwaved by my "Conan on the Beach" training montage.

(Basil Poledouris soundtrack completely optional)

Same here. I try to justify the skills. And at start of the game I spent XP for skills, just because I thought my character might have learned those skills at some point.

I'd say that if you have a lightsaber to practice with you can certainly increase the skill. If you don't have one (and have never handled one), then no.

And it's going to be out of career for the character so more expensive. Definitely let them, if they actually have a Lightsaber (or ancient sword)

I leave it up to the player.

One thing that I like to consider is that, unlike the standard "XP shows my character learning" take there's also room for the "XP is just the story-skill progression mechanic, my character can already do all that stuff, he just chooses not to until the XP coincidentally allows it."

I see no reason the XP system can't just be the reason the players don't summon the megazord the second the first minion group of putties show up, instead of being some kind of weird origin story that no one really needs to hear. (Seriously Hollywood, we get it, Batman's parents are dead. Why does every flogging movie need to revisit it? That's precious time spent not Batmaning!)

Any Superhero Reboot Origins story is a flog.

Because having a master or a holocron is the ONLY way to train? Absolute poppycock! Just because that is the standardised way of training doesn't mean it should be the only way either.

Personally having a lightsaber or at least some passing knowledge on how a lightsaber behaves should act as a perfectly good basis for obtaining rank's which includes personally wielding one for a period of time. This might not necessarily be the person's most obvious skill (in particular, my character treated it as a curious fetish until he was forced to defend himself against an inquistor, and it was only during that battle that he first became aware of being force sensitive.) but given time one could find out how to wield it effectively; without the blah blah of master blah blah teaching temple temple. Much more exciting to have to undergo a journey of discovery without being an elite coven of Jedi, the one thing that the Force and Destiny book tries to rule out.

There's nothing specifically saying you can't, but where's the fun in learning lightsaber skills off camera?! I want to play that stuff up for awesomesauce if it's my character, or in my campaign for one of my players. Learning it off camera is....meh. And who wants a meh campaign?

I always play that there has to be some way to learn how to do something. So if they have a master/holocron/etc then I'd say they can't buy ranks in the skill. Then again the same would be true for a Force user. Granted Force users tend to have more ways to learn the skill being able to access holocrons and interact with Force spirits. But if they have no method for learning it then nope. Even if you have a lightsabre. You can use it, but you're gonna need to find someone or something to teach you lightsabre combat. Even Grievous had teachers.

Its also worth highlighting that neither teacher or student need to be Force Sensitive to train in use of the Lightsaber, perhaps an ancient fighting tradition taught to the nobles of an isolated or minor planet. Or a Pirate crew use swords as a signature weapon, studying the art of fighting multiple opponents. A pit fighting school, or a retired pit-fighter? A Dressellian, skilled in non-technological combat, Sword Master.

Of course actually taking one of the Specialisations represents a deeper study and greater mastery, and being Force Sensitive gives you extra resources to draw upon. That opens up the Force User Mentor, but again why do they need to be Jedi, or even know what The Force is. Perhaps some individuals in their society show giftedness for sword or staff use, they train with the ancient monks to defend their homes from the ravaging beasts of this unexplored planet.

I let them though like some others have said I tell my players they need in story justification for buying any skill or talent or even new spec with xp. Therefor if a non force user gets a hold of an ancient sword, lightsaber or even a holocron or old book reaching such skills then why not, it's going to cost them more for being out of class anyways and there's nothing that would make them incapable of not learning anyways it's just a lighter more awkward weapon that can slice you open easier if you mess with it that Jedi just happened to favor because their force senses and reflexes allowed them to be better at it than most (as represented by the out of class purchase meaning it will be, on average much more difficult than a force user).

I let them though like some others have said I tell my players they need in story justification for buying any skill or talent or even new spec with xp. Therefor if a non force user gets a hold of an ancient sword, lightsaber or even a holocron or old book reaching such skills then why not, it's going to cost them more for being out of class anyways and there's nothing that would make them incapable of not learning anyways it's just a lighter more awkward weapon that can slice you open easier if you mess with it that Jedi just happened to favor because their force senses and reflexes allowed them to be better at it than most (as represented by the out of class purchase meaning it will be, on average much more difficult than a force user).

My in-story reason would always be "it seemed like it'd be something interesting to know more about."

Why did I spend a year learning sign language or take a creative writing during college when I was a biology student? Why did I take a geology class when it wasn't required by the curriculum?

Sometimes people just learn things because they sound interesting and that's as far as the 'story' behind them goes.

I let them though like some others have said I tell my players they need in story justification for buying any skill or talent or even new spec with xp. Therefor if a non force user gets a hold of an ancient sword, lightsaber or even a holocron or old book reaching such skills then why not, it's going to cost them more for being out of class anyways and there's nothing that would make them incapable of not learning anyways it's just a lighter more awkward weapon that can slice you open easier if you mess with it that Jedi just happened to favor because their force senses and reflexes allowed them to be better at it than most (as represented by the out of class purchase meaning it will be, on average much more difficult than a force user).

My in-story reason would always be "it seemed like it'd be something interesting to know more about."

Why did I spend a year learning sign language or take a creative writing during college when I was a biology student? Why did I take a geology class when it wasn't required by the curriculum?

Sometimes people just learn things because they sound interesting and that's as far as the 'story' behind them goes.

If someone really wanted to do it, I'd allow it. I mean, the player doesn't really need to know his character was force sensitive the entire time. At least, not until it becomes important to the plot.

This is a great way to get a player emotionally invested into the game, especially a player who avoids playing force sensitives otherwise. Sometimes the force chooses you.

As a GM, I generally prefer my players to have a decent reason, or at least a reasonable explanation, for why their PC is picking up a rank in a skill they're currently untrained in.

So if a player came to me and asked if their character could start picking up ranks in Lightsaber, they'd need to provide a fairly compelling rationale, one that would undoubtedly include them having to actually train with a lightsaber much as we saw Luke do in ANH.

To draw from the films, I could see Finn picking up a rank in Lightsaber, since he's gotten practical hands-on combat experience with the weapon, even if both of those fights didn't end well in his favor. Han wouldn't, because about the only time he used a lightsaber in the films was as a cutting tool.

I let them though like some others have said I tell my players they need in story justification for buying any skill or talent or even new spec with xp. Therefor if a non force user gets a hold of an ancient sword, lightsaber or even a holocron or old book reaching such skills then why not, it's going to cost them more for being out of class anyways and there's nothing that would make them incapable of not learning anyways it's just a lighter more awkward weapon that can slice you open easier if you mess with it that Jedi just happened to favor because their force senses and reflexes allowed them to be better at it than most (as represented by the out of class purchase meaning it will be, on average much more difficult than a force user).

My in-story reason would always be "it seemed like it'd be something interesting to know more about."

Why did I spend a year learning sign language or take a creative writing during college when I was a biology student? Why did I take a geology class when it wasn't required by the curriculum?

Sometimes people just learn things because they sound interesting and that's as far as the 'story' behind them goes.

I think what he was going for was how you learned it. You can have any reason for why you want to learn it but the hows is always important. You can't just decide to know sign language. You have to find someone or something to teach it to you. You can't just know geology. You have to find someone or something to teach it to you. Whether it be a book or a person. There has to be a how bigger than "I have a lightsabre and I want to buy ranks in the skill". That's all well and good but if you don't have some method of learning then you can't know how to do it. You swing it around of course (that's what straight attribute rolls are for anyway) but if you actually want to be skilled you need to have an in game method for how you came into the knowledge of using a lightsabre. Something greater than I just want to learn.

No matter how interesting a subject is .... there is always a method to learning it.

This whole thing reminds me of the difference between the cartoon Dragon Ball and the later cartoon Dragon Ball Z.

In the earlier Dragon Ball, all the characters are younger and inexperienced. They spend the entire series attempting to hunt down the legendary wish granting Dragon Balls. And by the end of the series, they've managed to finally collect them all. They make their wish, and the Balls scatter themselves around the world again for someone else to go hunt down.

Then in Dragon Ball Z, when everyone is older and more experienced, they run into problems that can only be resolved by making another wish. Only this time they're so much more powerful that they basically say "We need the Dragon Balls!" then cut to commercials, and by the time they're back from commercials the characters go "So now that we got all the Dragon Balls again..." Essentially handwaving the effort of the entire first series in seconds.

Now back to Star Wars, or any RPG really. If it's a reasonably available skill, then there's no real issue with having someone train it during downtime. They walked out of one game session, and came back with some extra Medicine under their belt? Sure, that's easy enough to do. But Force related things, and Lightsabers in particular, are not commonly covered by the local community college. Nor is there a "Lightsabers for Dummies" they can order. You can't walk out of the game and come back with intimate practical knowledge of how to wield a weapon that nobody has seen in years. Especially if you don't actually have one to practice with. It's not like you can go to the Rec Center and ask around for someone who can teach you how to fight with a Lightsaber.

That's why the books suggest having Mentors or Holocrons available. Because there are some things you can't just muddle through in the hopes of getting it right. Making it up as they go, they're just going to develop some awkward amounts of Melee. Which they would realize has not actually prepared them for wielding a true Lightsaber, if and when they get their hands on the real thing.

That being said... the Rarity on a Training Saber isn't too outrageous. There is a chance that someone could get their hands on one. In which case, having the real thing (relatively speaking) makes it a lot easier to practice with.

And it's going to be out of career for the character so more expensive. Definitely let them, if they actually have a Lightsaber (or ancient sword)

Or a training stick from Nexus of Power.

Can, or should, a non force user, or someone with no master/holocron/etc, be allowed to take ranks in saber with their xp between session? I'm thinking no, that this particular skill should be more story driven than others, even if the non force sensitive player has a saber. Thoughts?

Isn't that what General Grievous did? Oh sure Count Dooku trained him at first, but didn't he spend XP's on his own later?

Can, or should, a non force user, or someone with no master/holocron/etc, be allowed to take ranks in saber with their xp between session? I'm thinking no, that this particular skill should be more story driven than others, even if the non force sensitive player has a saber. Thoughts?

Isn't that what General Grievous did? Oh sure Count Dooku trained him at first, but didn't he spend XP's on his own later?

I think the key point here is "off camera/between sessions". I wouldn't really like it, as I would think the training of someone without Force powers, in the signature weapon of the Jedi to be a pretty cool mini-arc, and would be worthy of in-game training. They technically did this in the cartoons, showing Dooku training Grievous. I think we only see it one time, but the implication was that the training had been ongoing for a while. That he had been trained for some time before the scene we see, and this was more advanced lessons from Dooku. And the scene was pretty cool actually. To see Grevious, a being that was played up for being quite terrifying (and he was), being utterly schooled by Dooku, helped to establish how powerful Dooku is.

I don't have any issue with someone learning the skill, in fact in this thread I came up with a non-Force group that specialized in saber fighting, even gave them a backstory and a cool/funny name. But I think, for a better game experience for the players, to have them learn it off camera, is a disservice to the story, and to the fun they could have.

As someone who has 30 years training in actual Chinese sword lineages and styles I would say that if the character can use the lightsabre in combat a couple of times he is going to be able to figure out at least basic ability (surviving battle is a good teacher), but without being able to draw on some deeper wisdom and experience it wouldn't really get any better for a long time. As a GM I would cap it at three green dice, even if he is brawnier, without a holocron or mentor.

Over the years I have met plenty of people who have practised years and years with sword who simply suck, and its because they are trying to do it with too little actual training. Even if they are dedicated it doesn't really matter. Sure, there are people who figure some stuff out, but without an outsider analysing your movement and connection you can only get so far. Coaching really counts.

Besides, mentoring is a key part of the overall canon.

As someone who has 30 years training in actual Chinese sword lineages and styles I would say that if the character can use the lightsabre in combat a couple of times he is going to be able to figure out at least basic ability (surviving battle is a good teacher), but without being able to draw on some deeper wisdom and experience it wouldn't really get any better for a long time. As a GM I would cap it at three green dice, even if he is brawnier, without a holocron or mentor.

Over the years I have met plenty of people who have practised years and years with sword who simply suck, and its because they are trying to do it with too little actual training. Even if they are dedicated it doesn't really matter. Sure, there are people who figure some stuff out, but without an outsider analysing your movement and connection you can only get so far. Coaching really counts.

Besides, mentoring is a key part of the overall canon.

This game doesn't have training requirements on any skills, including things like Medicine where natural ability realistically only goes so far. The Lightsaber skill isn't special in any way--the special highlights of lightsaber use are found in Talents, many of which require Force sensitivity, but none of which (under this system) require formal teaching.