I love echo, the sheer options available makes her the best arc dodger in the game. Vulnerable to turrets though.

Overly defensive much?

Anyway, aside from the tone of your post I broadly agree. At the moment of seems only 3 ships regularly get 9+ PS (Vader, Fel, Whisper) but there's a lot more sitting at 8. I think you can run Echo if you bid to ensure shooting first, or have a high PS teammate to chase the other aces.

Whisper is already back, and I think Echo is waiting just outside the door.

So far I've done five of these, and the guy doing the Rebels has done two, and in every single one of the threads I've had to repeat the fact that this is intended to move with usage stats and change, much as the game does.

It's not defensiveness so much as being bored of repeating myself. Though somehow the paragraph disappeared which stated that it is intended to move with usage stats and change every month or so (once it's compiled), so that needs to go back in.

For the Echo fans: there are people using Echo (he consistently gets 1.5% of Imperial usage from entered players), but a lower amount of people getting cuts with him (actually about 1.1%) - which does make sense to me, because if you're confident enough to bring Echo to the table, then you're good enough to at least place with him.

However, despite the fact that Whisper represents only 7% of what people bring to tournaments, she consistently nets 8.5% of what makes it into a final cut. That's a solid gain, represents that she's a good ship, and ugh, should probably be represented in the numbers somehow - what ships are brought by fewer people but make more cuts, and what ships are brought by more people but make LESS cuts. I may have to go back and revise data.

If you're making the cut with Echo in tournaments, have you entered the data into list juggler? The larger the sample size, the more accurate the data from it, and the better these lists are. I like the idea of rec spec on Echo and that would be what I'd reach for first, but not a single list in list juggler had Echo with that - it's all reb captive.

So because you say it;s going to move over time we're not allowed to discuss if we agree with it or not?

I was trying to begin a discussion about whether there was going to be a change and you jumped down my throat. I think you need to back the **** off and let people discuss things without feeling you're being attacked. Like, literally, your posts in this thread are:

"Here are some rankings"

*some people agree with the rankings*

"Well I don't see anybody disagreeing with the rankings so I was right"

*some people say they might disagree with the rankings for future use*

"I SAID THEY MIGHT CHANGE, ALRIGHT!!! STOP PICKING ON ME!!! I HATE YOU, YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD ANYWAY SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!"

I get it. The rating might change. So I guess I'm not allowed to say if I think it might or not. I should just sit here in silent awe of your original post? I'll go back and delete all my previous posts as I've clearly misunderstood what the forums were for

Thankyou for your effort in bringing this data. I look forward to silently admiring your next post as well.

Cheers.

I think rank C is a little too harsh on Echo. B would be appropriate. But I do agree that she is not for competitive play.

I think rank C is a little too harsh on Echo. B would be appropriate. But I do agree that she is not for competitive play.

I've primarily flown Echo for almost 2 years now. During this past SC season, I played in 3, winning once, and getting top 4 in the other 2. I also used Echo during last years Regional season, playing in 2, placing 2nd and top 8 in the other.

In all of these tournaments, I have managed to beat aces at PS 9+. The notion that VI is a requirement on Echo is a farce, as it is completely useless in at least half of your games. There are actually options for Echo's EPT (Lone Wolf, Outmaneuver, Decoy), but she needs to be flown flawlessly. That is why the percentages are low for Echo getting into the top cut - since it's easy to be good with Whisper, players expect to be good with Echo without putting in the practice. Whisper is good even if you joust with her, hence the large percentage of Whisper players making the cut.

Also, to the OP saying that there is no reason to use Sigma's!?! Have you ever flown a phantom not named Whisper?

I appreciate that you're using list juggler data to begin a conversation about the pilots from each ship, but if your analysis stops at this data, you're not telling the whole story. You're assuming that the community has everything figured out already, which is never the case.

Any thoughts? This does seem pretty clear-cut to me with little controversy. Whisper's top-tier, everything else is taken only if you want a challenge.

You would have thought pilot skill was less necessary since they changed the decloak window.

What changed about the phantom wasn't its power (it's still a 4 dice primary). It was that it went from the most forgiving ship in the game to one of the least almost overnight.

Echo is still very powerful and Sigma/Shadow share the same firepower. They're just brutally unforgiving, which means they're not as popular as Whisper.

It is easy power that makes a meta ship, not ease nor power alone.

A better way to consider any tier list is that it goes from easiest to use effectively to hardest, as a meta naturally gravitates towards what is easiest. Akuma was one of the easiest characters in SF:A to use, and Dan Hibiki was one of the hardest; that's why they were Rank S and Rank C respectively. Didn't stop me from playing Dan back in the day.

Would you argue against the fact that Echo is one of the hardest ships to use in the entire game, and Whisper's the easiest Phantom?

Hmm. Time to change the opener again, if I have to keep repeating this too. The Ranking list is not necessarily best - worst, but easiest - hardest.

As for myself, I rarely fly Phantoms except when helping a friend test against a list. I'm not bad at them (though I do keep Intelligence Agent on them to ease prediction), and recently I made an acquaintance VERY thoughtful about triple-JMs when I beat him twice in a row with RAC/Whisper. I prefer 4-5 ship builds so it has more resistance to a spike of bad dice, and it's kinda hard to do that with either Echo or Whisper.

Would you argue against the fact that Echo is one of the hardest ships to use in the entire game, and Whisper's the easiest Phantom?

Hell no! Whisper is indeed easymode-phantom, and actually, I think it's partly her excellence that's the reason Echo doesn't see much gametime - same with e.g. Carnor. He's a superb pilot, but overshadowed by the top dog - after all, if you're spending a big chunk on an ace, you want them to be the top ace, right?

All this Echo-talk is making me want to take her to a store tournament this weekend! ...

Sienar Test Pilot (20) x 3 TIE Advanced Prototype (16), Proton Rockets (3), TIE/v1 (1), Guidance Chips (0)

“Echo” (40) TIE Phantom (30), Sensor Jammer (4), Lone Wolf (2), Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

I have been experimenting on an Echo with PTL, RecSpec, ACD, and FCS. I was playing an untimed game against another player, and barrel rolling into range 3 or out of arc, cloaking and getting a TL in the shooting phase each turn. Sure it limited me to green maneuvers the next turn, but he was having a hard time pinning me down. I've also been swapping PTL out with Outmaneuver, which is lots of fun. I had 3 ships in my last game, Echo, Vader, and Backstabber. Vader stripped shields very well, and Backstabber died hard, but got in a good hit or two, but the ace of the game was Echo. The game was a draw overall, I took down the hounds tooth, and did a lot of damage to an aggressor, and almost killed his third ship which type I don't remember. I lost Vader and Backstabber. By points I probably lost, but we ran out of time, and my opponent had to bail, he was sure in the next couple of turns I would have killed the lesser ship, and maybe done more to the aggressor. I think I will replace Vader with a couple of Interceptors the next time and see how it goes.

Also, and this is important: In my headcanon Echo looks just like Simone Simons.

Would you argue against the fact that Echo is one of the hardest ships to use in the entire game, and Whisper's the easiest Phantom?

Hell no! Whisper is indeed easymode-phantom, and actually, I think it's partly her excellence that's the reason Echo doesn't see much gametime - same with e.g. Carnor. He's a superb pilot, but overshadowed by the top dog - after all, if you're spending a big chunk on an ace, you want them to be the top ace, right?

All this Echo-talk is making me want to take her to a store tournament this weekend! ...

Sienar Test Pilot (20) x 3 TIE Advanced Prototype (16), Proton Rockets (3), TIE/v1 (1), Guidance Chips (0)

“Echo” (40) TIE Phantom (30), Sensor Jammer (4), Lone Wolf (2), Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

You'll be happy to know that Carnor Jax is actually seeing a lot of play lately; he's not gonna overtake Soontir Fel but his unique ability is proving very useful as a toolbox pilot.

And it was these rankings that made me want to take an Imperial Bubba Feets with Concussions, GC, Navigator, and VI to my next tournament. I've been testing him out and in a game all about maneuver... he does a pretty **** good job. Pick a bank, and if it doesn't look like a good spot to be in, rotate it with Bubba's ability and then rotate it again with Navigator's ability.

Speaking of which... time to tackle the TIE/Interceptor.

It's probably a bad idea, but I'm going to try the generic Phantoms out on Friday. The generic Punisher crashed and burned last time, but I still haven't given up on them.

Echo is crazy, but xe can't be the only one having fun.

2 Sigmas with FCS, Gunner, and Stygium leaves me 32 points to horse around with.

Cutlass Squadron Pilot with FCS, Extra Munitions, Plasma Torpedoes, Seismic Charges, Seismic Charges, Guidance Chips fits the bill.

Why do I do this to myself?!

You'll be happy to know that Carnor Jax is actually seeing a lot of play lately; he's not gonna overtake Soontir Fel but his unique ability is proving very useful as a toolbox pilot.

The initial Wave 8 results seem to show that the PS war is abating. Being PS8 is no longer the death sentence it used to be.

In place of Imperial lists with Vader & Soontir, Rebels with VI Poe and Corran or even the old Fat Han we're seeing that only half the Imp Aces lists are running Soontir OR Vader but pretty much never both, with Carnor Jax, Omega Leader and Inquisitor arriving frequently at PS8, while the Jumpmasters seem to have pushed the regen rebels out entirely.

The meta is reforming around PS 4. That's above the Jumpmasters and it's breathing new life into the Crack Swarms of TIEs and A-Wings, while also opening up a lot of the mid-range PS pilots who can now prey on those PS4s.

We're in a position where the upside of a strong ability like Carnor/Echo/Janson is more important than missing out on a couple of points of PS.

And the only thing that works even half-well against a Phantom's counters is Whisper herself, because she can be cloaked with multiple Focus tokens to hide behind - RecSpec is another crew I've seen in the lists that makes sense to me, stacking up multiple Focuses.

I'm perfectly fine with having Whisper female, I like having more gender equality in my games. And it leaves things open for hawt HowlrunnerxWhisper rule 34...

*ahem*

AANYWAY, I'm not seeing much disagreement with the rankings, and with the downfall of TLTs I see why Sensor Jammer has fully fallen out of favor with the reported lists - but it does deserve to be mentioned in Whisper's entry. Or should I move the discussion about what upgrades are common to the general entry?

Is this about what is common or what is effective because those aren't always the same.

Well, it can be about what's effective against certain solutions, which is why I DID put Sensor Jammer in there.

That's not really a clear answer. Is the point if this just to show percentage if use or are you actually trying to quantify the effectiveness of ships? Because it seems like you are using the former as a end all be all for the later and that is a fallacy because players are prone to jumping on fads and over looking new possibilities for older ships unless lead to them by the nose.

The time the Phantoms came out Echo had no chance to survive because Fat Han was omnipresent.

At the current meta, there could be a place for her.

But then Whisper still is so much easier to play with - and she is fine only with VI and ACD,

while Echo needs some more help.

If you manage to play with only VI + ACD, at 35 points she might also be a fair choice to be one of the 'Aces':

Inquisitor - 30 points

Soontir - 35 points

Echo - 35 points

100 points.

Maybe worth to start training now.

The time the Phantoms came out Echo had no chance to survive because Fat Han was omnipresent.

At the current meta, there could be a place for her.

But then Whisper still is so much easier to play with - and she is fine only with VI and ACD,

while Echo needs some more help.

If you manage to play with only VI + ACD, at 35 points she might also be a fair choice to be one of the 'Aces':

Inquisitor - 30 points

Soontir - 35 points

Echo - 35 points

100 points.

Maybe worth to start training now.

I think if you roll Echo it's important to init bid because there's too much bad news waiting at PS8 if you don't.

The time the Phantoms came out Echo had no chance to survive because Fat Han was omnipresent.

At the current meta, there could be a place for her.

But then Whisper still is so much easier to play with - and she is fine only with VI and ACD,

while Echo needs some more help.

If you manage to play with only VI + ACD, at 35 points she might also be a fair choice to be one of the 'Aces':

Inquisitor - 30 points

Soontir - 35 points

Echo - 35 points

100 points.

Maybe worth to start training now.

I think if you roll Echo it's important to init bid because there's too much bad news waiting at PS8 if you don't.

You could drop Soontir to 34 points for iniative bid.