Personally, I use the ships I like: Soontir and Omega leader (lucky that I like strong ships)

and then fill the rest of the list with whatever I want

I think It might be easier to make this game thematic if it is balanced since you can use thematic lists to fight competitive lists and still have a chance.

I don't really do themes so much as try and come up with whacky shenanigans.
Some lists end up being really powerful, others end up being complete jokes.
To me list building is one of my favorite parts of the game.

Personally, I use the ships I like: Soontir and Omega leader (lucky that I like strong ships)

and then fill the rest of the list with whatever I want

I think It might be easier to make this game thematic if it is balanced since you can use thematic lists to fight competitive lists and still have a chance.

Hmmm; I could definitely see someone feeling an attachment to Soontir Fel based on the old EU comics and books, but why do you like Omega Leader, if not for his ability? I'm pretty sure we know nothing about him or her.

Are you saying that you like strong ships because they're strong, or you like Omega Leader and Soontir Fel and it's lucky that for you that they're strong ships? *begin sarcasm* BECAUSE ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS OK AND THE OTHER IS NOT OK *end sarcasm*

I play quite a few tournaments, and in most cases I do spectacularly badly. Not because I'm just really bad at the game, but because I like to try things that appeal to me. That and the fact that I'm not a collector.

If I buy it, I'll fly it. Even if it's not the best ship out there.

Cheers

Baaa

Personally, I use the ships I like: Soontir and Omega leader (lucky that I like strong ships)

and then fill the rest of the list with whatever I want

I think It might be easier to make this game thematic if it is balanced since you can use thematic lists to fight competitive lists and still have a chance.

, but why do you like Omega Leader, if not for his ability? I'm pretty sure we know nothing about him or her.

Episode 8 Spoiler Alert:

Omega Leader is Supreme Leader Snoke

Personally, I use the ships I like: Soontir and Omega leader (lucky that I like strong ships)

and then fill the rest of the list with whatever I want

I think It might be easier to make this game thematic if it is balanced since you can use thematic lists to fight competitive lists and still have a chance.

Hmmm; I could definitely see someone feeling an attachment to Soontir Fel based on the old EU comics and books, but why do you like Omega Leader, if not for his ability? I'm pretty sure we know nothing about him or her.

Are you saying that you like strong ships because they're strong, or you like Omega Leader and Soontir Fel and it's lucky that for you that they're strong ships? *begin sarcasm* BECAUSE ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS OK AND THE OTHER IS NOT OK *end sarcasm*

I don't know much about soontir fel and omega leader but I like their play style (soontir does sound interesting from the small amount I've read about him though...)

I guess I mean that I'm lucky that my play style matches the playstyle of strong ships

Personally, I use the ships I like: Soontir and Omega leader (lucky that I like strong ships)

and then fill the rest of the list with whatever I want

I think It might be easier to make this game thematic if it is balanced since you can use thematic lists to fight competitive lists and still have a chance.

, but why do you like Omega Leader, if not for his ability? I'm pretty sure we know nothing about him or her.

Episode 8 Spoiler Alert:

Omega Leader is Supreme Leader Snoke

YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It actually could make sense...

Whoever Snoke chooses to kill is unable to focus because they are so scared...

Some theme is important, and so is aesthetics. I don't like flying TIE/ln with TIE/fo, or t-70s with t-65s for example.

I reckon I fly better with lists I can visualise in a movie.

i like lists that look cool when they fly out in formation andm ake me want to make woosh and laser noises

like 3 of any ship in a V, or big swarms

I dunno if this has a place here, but thematically, I can't bring myself to fly ships that have no hyperdrive with ships I can imagine operating without a carrier.

For example: I know it makes sense to fly my Decimator with a few ties as back up, but if I've got ties, why isn't my Star Destroyer their backup? A ship's fluff capabilities sorta dictate what I fly them with.

I dunno if this has a place here, but thematically, I can't bring myself to fly ships that have no hyperdrive with ships I can imagine operating without a carrier.

For example: I know it makes sense to fly my Decimator with a few ties as back up, but if I've got ties, why isn't my Star Destroyer their backup? A ship's fluff capabilities sorta dictate what I fly them with.

That is actually why I want to play 3 Gozanti's in an epic themed match...to carry a full squadron of 12 TIE fighters..keeps the organization of the novels and rpg books. With it being 12.

Story over math bory...

I brought Wedge and Chewie to a tournament recently. I don't care AT ALL if my list wins, I just really like Chewbacca and Wedge.

I'm here for the Star Wars of it all, as opposed to the tactical minis of it all.

...and I got my C-3P0 card, so I felt like I came out a winner anyway.

Personally, I've always enjoyed a themed list that is effective. Trying to find that balance and still winning is what always brought me joy. Especially if it's non-"meta". I've changed, though, as I've just not been interested in tournaments lately. I find I want themed more than anything these days. I find I want to play anything other than tournament style games. I've had a lot more fun lately with the game, too. I want to say that "competitive" isn't really a good description. If I'm limiting my ship types to go with a style, I am still playing to win. I'm still playing competitively. I'm just not playing tournament level.

I have found that when you ditch the overall tournament style lists, then a lot of things turn out to be not bad ships. T-65's are not really so bad if you aren't dealing with a ton of ace arc dodgers. I found it really refreshing to play themed lists and had a lot of fun with ships I haven't seen on the table in a long time.

I really think Cinematic style or Missions is where it's at. I want to play with lists that make a cool story and play a game that makes a cool story. I find flying X-wings and Tie Fighters against each other more satisfying than winning games at a tournament.

Just to throw it out there, but Babaganoosh and I have recorded our first episode of our Casual X-wing podcast and it's being edited now. It should be up soon. Might take a little bit to get things sorted (like RSS feeds), but hopefully not too long. We want to go into things like "B-list" pilots, missions, and all sorts of casual games of X-wing. Looking forward to recording some more episodes and seeing what people think.

So, from the beginning the forums have been crammed with topics about how to fix different ships, the T-65 being the current topic of choice. But last night I got thinking about how for me, the Thematics of the game are (in general) more important than how balanced or competitive any one ship is. For example, I'm ok with the idea that over time the T-65 has become less effective, simply because that's how things developed in the Star Wars universe. In other words, if the T-65 never became obsolete, what would be the point of developing the T-75? I like that the game reflects the technological progression of the story. But that's just me, and though I do play at my local store, I'm not a hard-core tournament player. What are your thoughts? Which is more important, the thematic flavor of the game, or that every ship be competitive?

Well........

I got into this game because it was a Star Wars Universe game with highly detailed prepainted miniature. So I got into Star Wars: X-Wing because of theme. I have plenty of game and several miniature game. With this I wanted to play Star Wars on a table at home.

The important things are that the game is fun; the mechanics have a flow that you can follow; it is not overly complex in prep or play; neither side feels abused or seriously disadvantaged; a universe/theme (Star Wars in this case) that you can relate to and for the course of the game immerse yourself into.

Does it need this level of balance; no not really. Plenty of games have units that are similar or close in abilities and players are not throwing out units because of a fraction of a point difference in efficiencies. Some players even enjoy a slight disadvantage and say the victories just feel better. That doesn't meant you can't have both theme and balance. But still, the micro balance and constant call for fixes for even on the most popular ships I think are driven by tournament mentality and not enjoyable, for me at least, in the long term.

Does it need this level of balance; no not really. Plenty of games have units that are similar or close in abilities and players are not throwing out units because of a fraction of a point difference in efficiencies. Some players even enjoy a slight disadvantage and say the victories just feel better. That doesn't meant you can't have both theme and balance. But still, the micro balance and constant call for fixes for even on the most popular ships I think are driven by tournament mentality and not enjoyable, for me at least, in the long term.

I don't know; I think if the game were perfectly balanced, in an ideal world where we all rode flying unicorns and eating ice cream for breakfast wouldn't make me fat, then people would fly much more thematic lists.

If you give me a choice between two lists, I'll tend to pick the more effective list. But if both lists are equally effective, I'll make my choice based more on aesthetics or thematic factors. For example, if you give me a choice between a list with Biggs and Poe Dameron, and a list with Biggs and Garven, where both lists are effectively the same fighting effectiveness, I'll choose Biggs and Garven every day because that makes sense in the Star Wars universe.

It's just like the saying goes: Whats good for the goose is good for thematic X-wing play!

A personal obsessive emphasis on maximizing the effectiveness of your builds is never going to favor thematic play, because the game balance is never going to be perfect. But the closer the balance is to perfect, the lower the penalty for making your decisions based on theme over maximum efficiency. The pressure on the developers to balance all ships, which stems from the tournament scene where people put in the time and effort to qualitatively and quantitatively assess each ship and upgrade, serves to make thematic play more possible and enjoyable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's complicated. Tournament-caliber play drives the game developers to make the game more balanced, and balance is good for enabling thematic play. But at the same time, knowing the efficiencies of ships drives players to use particular ships and lists, and away from flying thematic lists.

Probably the best solution is to consciously separate tournament and casual play. If you're playing a pickup game with a stranger, take a second to talk to them about what kind of game they expect - are they practicing for a tournament or playing with a 'fun' list? Both styles of play have plenty of merit, but if a player brings a fun list to a hardcore match, there's a good chance that neither player has fun.

Does it need this level of balance; no not really. Plenty of games have units that are similar or close in abilities and players are not throwing out units because of a fraction of a point difference in efficiencies. Some players even enjoy a slight disadvantage and say the victories just feel better. That doesn't meant you can't have both theme and balance. But still, the micro balance and constant call for fixes for even on the most popular ships I think are driven by tournament mentality and not enjoyable, for me at least, in the long term.

I don't know; I think if the game were perfectly balanced, in an ideal world where we all rode flying unicorns and eating ice cream for breakfast wouldn't make me fat, then people would fly much more thematic lists.

[...]

I suppose it depends on how one defines it.

We have bombers and freighters that are compared and balanced to superiority fighters. To me, no matter now perfectly balanced we are at riding unicorns, this is very unthematic. We have giving up a lot of distention for that elusive perfect balance. Of course we are getting better ordnance carriers. But only in a tournament world should a bomber be as good as fighters point for point. They should fill completely different rolls and their points should be measure at how well them preform those roles. The HWK-290 needs a fix and should have had more attack has been the call since its release. Not because a better freighter needs them but because the freighter is competing against TIE Interceptors and fighters and needs to be on par.

The need is to balance for tournament has little or nothing to do with theme. You may fly more thematic squads but you won't fly bombers that can easily get picked off by fighters on a bombing run. We just won't allow bombers to be point for point weaker than fighters no matter how well they preform as bombers against capital ships. Interceptors aren't really interceptors in a 3' x 3' board either. They are arc dodgers. Thematically speaking shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the Interceptors be fast but not as nimble and the main line fighters be somewhat slower but more maneuverable because of their required combat maneuvering. Freighters too; even the generics are just as have and have the same attack (one notable exception) as the more well know pilots that heavily modified their craft. No actual freighters, just bigger fighters and sometimes with a maneuver dial as good as some fighters. How is that thematic?

Circling back.... perhaps it depends on how you define thematic? Using any squad that resembles something found in Star Wars or being able field lowly freighters which are prone to getting blown up being attacked by bombers who are susceptible to interceptors yet being protected by fighters. That is thematic, and this isn't what we have nor is it something we even strive for. Rather we strive for tournament level micro-balance management and efficiencies.

I think ordnance was fixed because ordnance wasn't good enough no matter what version you were playing. To me, having something balanced means it has to be worth it's points in either a mission or a tournament game. In that case, I see no reason before some of the recent fixes to ever have a T-65 loaded out with a Proton Torpedo. The lack of ability to modify the dice meant that the Torpedo wasn't worth taking, even when you were wanting to blast at a big capital ship. It would be more effective to fire your main guns and modify the dice. With the new changes to ordnance, like Guidance Chip, it's a better option to go loaded with Proton Torpedoes and Guidance Chip when flying a mission vs. enemy capital ships.

Balance and points balance work with missions, too. You have to decide what to spend your points on to make it work in the mission.

I agree that the level of balance that would need to happen to make everything be balanced for high level tournament play is a little much, but I think a level of balance is good when flying fluffy missions is important, too.

So, from the beginning the forums have been crammed with topics about how to fix different ships, the T-65 being the current topic of choice. But last night I got thinking about how for me, the Thematics of the game are (in general) more important than how balanced or competitive any one ship is. For example, I'm ok with the idea that over time the T-65 has become less effective, simply because that's how things developed in the Star Wars universe. In other words, if the T-65 never became obsolete, what would be the point of developing the T-75? I like that the game reflects the technological progression of the story. But that's just me, and though I do play at my local store, I'm not a hard-core tournament player. What are your thoughts? Which is more important, the thematic flavor of the game, or that every ship be competitive?

I think you're talking about two different things here.

First and foremost, every ship MUST be competitive. If not, why even have them in production? Why produce a ship that's simply bad and obsolete? Who is going to want to include that in their squad?

But secondly, I think STAR WARS is the most important part of X Wing. Building TLT spam or Toilet Seat spam simply because it's the most powerful build at the moment is a more shallow, less satisfying way to play IMO. At that point you've reduced the game to a purely mechanical, abstract competition and without STAR WARS, X Wing becomes a boring dice rolling exercise.

I actually think it's a real problem that we have ships from two different eras in the same game. There should be some kind of timeline system where new ships only play against new ships, and old ships only play against old ships. It's like seeing WWII aircraft in active service today.

It's like seeing WWII aircraft in active service today.

Well, depending on the country, aircraft go back a ways. Maybe not World War II, but there's certainly some old stuff still flying. Tanzania flies Mig-17s (1952), Russia is still using Tupolev Tu-95s (1956)... Heck, even the USA still uses B-52s (1952) and doesn't plan to phase them out until the 2040s.

So those old Y-Wings might not be the flashiest ships in the fleet, but having some still be in service isn't completely implausible.

The thematic elements of the game should always be secondary to balance. It’s more important to the game that you have a basically fair structure, so that people can have fun playing the game. If the ships are balanced ‘thematically’ or ‘realistically’, then right off the bat you eliminate a large portion of ships not only from tournament play, but make it harder to have fun with those ships in a normal game. It’s not a fun game if I put a TIE Defender on the table and I can stomp about 10 Z-95s with it reliably; not under the current pricing scheme anyway.

Keep in mind that the points costs of ships aren’t necessarily the price of ships in-universe (how many imperial credits is one squad point worth, I wonder?). If you’re thinking about the game very thematically, then perhaps you should be ignoring the points cost of ships altogether and substituting your own system.

If a thematic game is what you’re after, you should really look into playing scenarios, or playing with some basic list-building restrictions. You can have a game that is both competitive and thematic, but the best foundation for that kind of game is a strong game balance that makes sure ships are of similar cost-effectiveness, or that are 'balanced'.

If the game was entirely of FFG's own invention, then I'd agree. The thing is, this is a game that's about Star Wars. So, while the basic gameplay mechanics should be (and are) solid, the main design consideration should be how well can they match the "reality" of the setting?. Otherwise, what's the point?

OK, I know the point - sticking a Star Wars logo on the box shifts more units and gets you more exposure. But for me? If I buy this game and the ships simply don't behave like they do onscreen, then I'm out, regardless of how good an abstract competitive exercise it is.

On the other hand, if the game is horrible, then I won't be playing it - but I might still be buying the ships regardless; I have a huge collection of the WotC Sar Wars Starship Battles miniatures. I never played that game, but they came in very handy for Full Thrust.

tl;dr: It's the theme that pulls me in, and keeps me buying. The gameplay has to be there to keep me in, though.

What's the point? A fun game that's worth your time

The label just moves units, theres gotta be something actually substantial to keep us invested

Gameplay is always the highest priority

First and foremost, every ship MUST be competitive. If not, why even have them in production? Why produce a ship that's simply bad and obsolete? Who is going to want to include that in their squad?

But secondly, I think STAR WARS is the most important part of X Wing. Building TLT spam or Toilet Seat spam simply because it's the most powerful build at the moment is a more shallow, less satisfying way to play IMO. At that point you've reduced the game to a purely mechanical, abstract competition and without STAR WARS, X Wing becomes a boring dice rolling exercise.

OK...I agree that every ship needs to be competitive, but.....not all in the same way. For example, the OP says that perhaps a Proton Torpedo loaded Y-wing should be competitive in the 100 pt tournament type game as something of the same points value. It should be worth it in a mission or epic where a Y-wing on a torpedo run will be devastating. Another example was when B-wings came out. They just nudged generic X-wings out of the game at the time. B-wings were better knife fighters for a small furball and had more shields for about the same points. If you take the same ships and put them in a mission or epic where mobility is important, you would probably want the X-wing instead of the B-wing. The speed and maneuverability is well worth it for the X-wing in those types of situations.

I think it's a matter of competitive in their preferred arena. A Torpedo full Y-wing needs to be competitive in a game where torpedo runs is a thing. If it's not, then it's not worth it. It doesn't need to be worth it in all types of games.

OK...I agree that every ship needs to be competitive, but.....not all in the same way. For example, the OP says that perhaps a Proton Torpedo loaded Y-wing should be competitive in the 100 pt tournament type game as something of the same points value. It should be worth it in a mission or epic where a Y-wing on a torpedo run will be devastating. Another example was when B-wings came out. They just nudged generic X-wings out of the game at the time. B-wings were better knife fighters for a small furball and had more shields for about the same points. If you take the same ships and put them in a mission or epic where mobility is important, you would probably want the X-wing instead of the B-wing. The speed and maneuverability is well worth it for the X-wing in those types of situations.

I think it's a matter of competitive in their preferred arena. A Torpedo full Y-wing needs to be competitive in a game where torpedo runs is a thing. If it's not, then it's not worth it. It doesn't need to be worth it in all types of games.

[Emphasis mine]

Yes!!!

I've thought this since before I got into this game. But I think you said it better.

Which do You Prefer: Theme or Competitiveness?

There is a scene I like from the original Last Avatar series (episode: The cave of Two Lovers):

Chong (The traveling Musician): There's an old story about a secret pass right through the mountains.

Katara: Is this real or a legend?

Chong: Oh, it's a real legend.

In the same vein, I prefer thematic competition.