I tinkered with an MC 80 build this morning vs my 2ND place SC Imperial list.

Somebody mentioned using the corners of the board with the 80. I think I agree that is a valid tactic. If you hug the short end of the board, you can force a mistake such as running off the board while still firing away good broadsides. The trick I used was a blocker MC30 that softened up Demolisher and forced an offset approach making the ram-block difficult.

I don't think it's an easy or even great ship, but still usable. My issue now is using my 42 points of fighters in an effective way. I may need to add some named pilots to leverage my use of Rieekan.

See, when I'm building a list, especially a competitive list, I don't start with an approach like "hmm how can I make this sub-optimal ship work?" cause that is a great way to find out that it doesn't and you end up getting spanked.

I don't really play rebels, but I do play against them, and I've yet to see an MC80 application that either is effective or troublesome to deal with. It either can't survive me or can't catch me.

As for the list above with the MC80 and AF and bomber wing, I tabled a very similar list 10-0. And not first round to a noob but to final round top table and a guy who the tourney before had beat me 7-3 with a different list. If he had more AFs and Yavaris it would have been a much harder fight.

final round top table

So what your saying is the MC80 is a good enough ship to get you to the top table of a tournament?

Ultimately, I don't think it's the best ship to take for a tournament. But it's still not absolutely worthless. My biggest thing is that I'm tired of trying to run super high initiative bids, so I'm kind of swinging the other way for 400 Point lists.

Plus what makes me comfortable playing will not always be what makes you or anybody else comfortable playing. That's the beauty of this game. Sometimes things work out that you don't expect them to.

But, you're right. Typically it's not wise to pick something that is underwhelming and tried to run around it.

I tinkered with an MC 80 build this morning vs my 2ND place SC Imperial list.

Somebody mentioned using the corners of the board with the 80. I think I agree that is a valid tactic. If you hug the short end of the board, you can force a mistake such as running off the board while still firing away good broadsides. The trick I used was a blocker MC30 that softened up Demolisher and forced an offset approach making the ram-block difficult.

I don't think it's an easy or even great ship, but still usable. My issue now is using my 42 points of fighters in an effective way. I may need to add some named pilots to leverage my use of Rieekan.

See, when I'm building a list, especially a competitive list, I don't start with an approach like "hmm how can I make this sub-optimal ship work?" cause that is a great way to find out that it doesn't and you end up getting spanked.

I don't really play rebels, but I do play against them, and I've yet to see an MC80 application that either is effective or troublesome to deal with. It either can't survive me or can't catch me.

As for the list above with the MC80 and AF and bomber wing, I tabled a very similar list 10-0. And not first round to a noob but to final round top table and a guy who the tourney before had beat me 7-3 with a different list. If he had more AFs and Yavaris it would have been a much harder fight.

Now I'm sure this qualifies as a "niche build" in your eyes, but have you seen Truthiness run Independence + Yavaris? It's beauty in action....quite effective!

Honestly every faction has that one ship that is hard to make work, but when it does...it's fantastic. For the rebels its the MC80.

Huh. I would have voted the Neb B has the hardest rebel ship to make work.

Naw. Slap yavaris on it and -boom- functional ship.

But without titles? I'd vote for the Neb...and I love them.

Oh sure yeah. Very niche at best sans title.

See, when I'm building a list, especially a competitive list, I don't start with an approach like "hmm how can I make this sub-optimal ship work?" cause that is a great way to find out that it doesn't and you end up getting spanked.

So, while I agree that when I'm sitting down to build an actual tournament list the night before, I probably won't run something I haven't effectively used, I think the best players are the ones who do experiment with the lesser-used ships, with less popular builds, trying to find their strengths. That's the only way the state of the game moves forward is by people taking risks and running things that aren't globally recognized as being good. Do you experiment at tournaments? No, but you can't be afraid in any other games to try to find ways to make the redheaded step-ships work for you just because they're Bad®.

Hell, that's exactly what happened with the FOTM Demolisher Swarm of Doom: the community went from "the Raider is useless" to "is Clontroper invincible?" in the space of like a week. In fact there were a few days that both of those threads were at the top of the front page simultaneously. He got there by recognizing a strength of the Raider, experimenting with it, and then not being afraid to use it despite widespread revilement of the ship.

Hell, that's exactly what happened with the FOTM Demolisher Swarm of Doom: the community went from "the Raider is useless" to "is Clontroper invincible?" in the space of like a week. In fact there were a few days that both of those threads were at the top of the front page simultaneously. He got there by recognizing a strength of the Raider, experimenting with it, and then not being afraid to use it despite widespread revilement of the ship.

speak for yourself.

speak for yourself.

speak for yourself.

ummm, I was

Please Clontrooper, make a MC80 list, that you almost sweep the floor with, so we can stop this "pointless bickering"

speak for yourself.

ummm, I was

Please Clontrooper, make a MC80 list, that you almost sweep the floor with, so we can stop this "pointless bickering"

Truthiness already has. Clon only plays imps.

final round top table

So what your saying is the MC80 is a good enough ship to get you to the top table of a tournament?

Sure if one of your opponents is a new player that got 10-0'd every single game he played, I had also already played the actual second place guy so I couldn't play him again in the final table, so yeah, 10-0 a noob, squeak by a 6-4 against a list that wasn't great against bombers and then get trashed hard against real opposition...Its a real paragon that one. Frankly the guy that was running it is a pretty decent and experienced player who has taken MC80s before or he would have done way worse. never seen him do better than 3rd with an MC80 fleet even in shallow competition.

speak for yourself.

ummm, I was

Please Clontrooper, make a MC80 list, that you almost sweep the floor with, so we can stop this "pointless bickering"

Hmm, i've never played a Clonisher clone, but im pretty sure that since the fundamental theory behind it is solid I could take one for a spin and do alright. Doubt I could say the same for any MC80 list you could put together.

you've never played against a demo with the fixings!!!???!!! It's been a thing for almost a year

I'm not really sure there's anything to be gained from this thread any more now that it's devolved down to "Hastatior calls people names and assumes that impresses people."

You use MC80s? They're bad. They're so bad. I've seen people using MC80s for months now and even though they're worthless, this FFG administration keeps pushing them on regular folks. It's sad. If you use them, you're a sad man. A real low-energy loser. A chump!

I don't understand what this administration has against Assault Frigates! Assault Frigates are what made our country great. Assault Frigates are the best. They really are. We've got all these amazing Assault Frigate plans right now, you don't even know.

#MakeArmadaGreatAgain

I think this thread is a prime example of goalpost shifting and fallacious arguments.

* Here are some suggestions and results about making it win > But that is " In Your" meta (an implied inferior meta).

* Here is data showing wins > But what about losses?

There was always a response that changed the premise.

The best counter argument against "efficiency" was mostly not even addressed. If the rule about efficiency (efficiency is better) is true then VSD>ISD for play. Yet what do 99% of people suggest you take and what do most people take. The ISD.

Failing anything new I think that's all i can say.

Or, you know; play what you want?

WHATEVA WHATEVA I PLAY WHAT I WANT

WHATEVA WHATEVA I PLAY WHAT I WANT

I run with TEN MC80s!

I just saw this, so pardon me for the bump. But I have 3 store champ wins with the Ackbar MC80, and it's quite heavy loaded as well. In fact, I've been doing well with this space squid cigar since it came out.

Well done.

In fact for the benefit of those who don't read your blog, here's a glimpse of Hero's Squid Cigar - it's a real christmas tree of a flag ship but he's making it work.

"On another note, last week I had a Armada Store Tournament. I'm happy to say that I scored 28 out of 30 possible tournament points with a 9-1 win, 10-0 and 9-1 win with the following list..

ACKBAR1
Author: HERO
Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 390/400
Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Home One ( 7 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)

Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)

4 YT-2400s ( 64 points)

I played against Rebels in all 3 of my games because the meta was insane. In my first tournament this season, I saw a good mix of Imperials and Rebels, but in this last one it was 10/12 Rebel players. My first game was vs. an Ackbar Defiance MC80 with 2x TRC90s and a bunch of squadrons, my second game was vs. dual MC30c torps, MC80 with Dodonna and a MKII, and my last game was vs. this crazy 3x MKII (one was Galant Haven) build with Dodonna and 10x Ys with a HWK. That one was really tough, but I just got right up in the middle of the pack and Ackbar slashed with my MC80 Battleship. I was able to slash in every single one of my games thanks to Engine Techs and that was devastating for all my opponents.

Does my list look familiar? It's pretty much the list that I perfected over Wave 2 and the list I'm most familiar with. This marks the second 1st place showing this season for Armada with the same list, so I'm pretty happy. I was going to try for 3/3, but with BFG needing my full attention, I'm going to bail on this weekend's tournament.."

/quote.

Yey! more anecdotal arguments!

I've won store champs and tournaments and placed highly with a hybrid fireball list. This must mean something something something

I guess I'll just say it again! Run MC80s all you like, If they work in your meta, good for you! Keep running them! Doesn't change the numbers or make them any less of a lumbering pig of a point sink that won't have every decent rhymerball and DeMSU pusher licking their chops.

Yeah, VSDs have great efficiency, and thanks for making that point, because while they have better efficiency than the MC80, they suffer from a very similar lumbering pig syndrome. So in summary, VSDs are better than MC80s and they are still not good enough to take LMAO QED

On top of that the VSDs (which again, most people don't bother with anymore) cost significantly less points and are therefore much less attractive targets as the plod along while b wings pass them

The thing is Hastatior is actually making some decent points, although they're buried under derision. Let's translate from "Hastatior" into "someone not trying to antagonize you into punching him." Hold on, it's going to be a wild ride.

Yey! more anecdotal arguments!

"Without knowing much about your meta it can be difficult to ascertain which anecdotal stories about MC80s we see here are from players ahead of the curve or just a list that wins against mediocre opposition. You'll have to forgive my skepticism but any more data you can provide about your meta or those events would help."

I've won store champs and tournaments and placed highly with a hybrid fireball list. This must mean something something something

"I too have won events so therefore I'm not really convinced by that alone. Please forgive me for my mocking tone at the end, sometimes I get stock in Donald Trump mode."

I guess I'll just say it again! Run MC80s all you like, If they work in your meta, good for you! Keep running them!

"I am, however, interested in hearing more about what kind of configuration you use them in and how they work around the problems I've identified. I don't want to indicate that anyone should feel bad about using them, I just can't find a spot for them in a competitive list right now."

Doesn't change the numbers or make them any less of a lumbering pig of a point sink that won't have every decent rhymerball and DeMSU pusher licking their chops.

"I'm sorry, the Trump haze descended upon me again and I spoke in belittling hyperbole that doesn't really convince anyone or assist our dialogue and seems to primarily antagonize people. I get very caught up in arguing sometimes and forget that the point of a discussion from different positions is to convince people and be open to being convinced in turn rather than just belittling my opponents. Please accept my apologies, that was unnecessary."

Yeah, VSDs have great efficiency, and thanks for making that point, because while they have better efficiency than the MC80, they suffer from a very similar lumbering pig syndrome. So in summary, VSDs are better than MC80s and they are still not good enough to take LMAO QED

"You are correct that VSDs are very cost-effective for their points with the exception of their poor speed and maneuverability. You may notice few reported VSDs in top tier tournament lists right now and in my opinion it would seem to be for similar reasons. Good stats alone are difficult to leverage properly if they are on a chassis that has trouble bringing them to bear."

On top of that the VSDs (which again, most people don't bother with anymore) cost significantly less points and are therefore much less attractive targets as the plod along while b wings pass them

"My own opinion is that VSDs are actually better than MC80s because the VSD at least costs less points for an activation and if it finds itself out of position it comes with less opportunity cost than a similarly-disadvantaged MC80."

That right there wins my internet for the day...thank you very much..

In an attempt to provide data to discuss, I trawled Smitty's regionals data thread, and the linked AARs. Here's what I found:

Rebels constituted 38% of entrants, 22% of top 8, 12% of top 4, and 20% of winners.

MC80's were in 56% of rebel fleets. Not sure if that's 56% of fleets from tournaments with full rosters, but lets take it as such.

If fleets with MC80's are as good as other rebel ships, we should see MC80's represented in the bare majority of rebel winners & top scorers.

Top rebel scorers:

Winner (1) AFM x 2, Yavaris (san antonio)

Top 4:(2)

#1) AFmx2, Yav (Springfield?)

#2) 80, 30, AFM (Kansas City)

Top 8 ( that I was able to find, there should be more out there, but not everyone lists the full rosters of all lists)

#1) 80, AFM, CR x2 (san antonio)

#2) 80, 30 (Louisville)

#3) AFM, CR x2, Yav (louisville)

#4) 80, Yav, CR x2 (fargo, was 8 of 9)

I'm discounting top 8's if the tournament wasn't at least 16 players. (sorry, Kansas city & Fargo)

So, we see 2 of the 6 top scorers using MC80s. That suggests that they are somewhat underpowered, but the sample size is too small to make anything more than that. I don't think it supports "terri-bad" but "less effective" is probably supportable. "Difficult to use for beginners" is probably more supportable. AFM's are over-represented in rebel top spots (43% of entrants, 83% of top 8) did a limited compare of ISD appearances in Imperial lists to see if some of the low representation of 80's is due to simply being a big, expensive ship. ISD's are in 66% of lists, but 75% of the top 8 places that I was able to find data for. (Fargo, Springfield, San Antonio)

Where we may have a big enough sample size is on factions overall. Rebels as a whole are significantly under-represented in top-places. (38% entrants, 22% top 8, 12% top 4)

(edited to add ISD %, and soften "less effective" to "less effective or harder to use"