Oh and try and convince me why Home One is so great when facing a rhymerball, cause you aint catching my ISD and Demolisher and if you do you will wish you didn't.

Edit: I realized this sounds flip, but the point im trying to make is that it is an extremely situational title for 7 points. Compare to Demolisher which always plays very effectively for 10 or Yavaris which is crucial to a bomber list and will be used in most games against most lists to good effect. Home one is 7 points and only affects OTHER ships of which you can bring less because of the cost of the MC80 to bring the title!

You can take 4 CR90 A's with TRC's and an Ackbar MC80 Homeone, that is 4 red dice per ship, on average dealing 4 damage with an accuracy, they could kill an full health full shield ISD in 6-corvette activations and 1 MC80 activtion, and we are about to get a load of super cheap ships in wave 3.

You talk like Homeone is a poor choice, it is that powerful, VSD's vanished from competitive play lists because of it.

Hastatior you cant complain about me arguing arbitary situations and pull out home one vs rhymer being the utmost question....

Thats exactly my point. anybody can come up with what if situations. The actual point I was making there is specifically the idea that Home One is exceedingly situational, i.e. a gimmick. It's easy to solve for even without a rhymerball and in fact is moot if you roll an accuracy anyway so there is a fairly decent chance you wont even want to activate it after paying for it! If your whole reason for taking an MC80 is the titles, cause clearly the stats aint it, then Home One is not the champion of said titles. I would argue that Defiance at 2 points cheaper would be one of the better ones especially for a list that goes second, but even then it isn't good enough to justify the brick of an MC80.

Red dice are prone to rolling blanks, knowing you can turn 1 to an accuracy, and 1 to a 2 damage face, significantly ups the power of a CR90 A side arc.

And I already said an MC80 can do things in one go that no AF can do in one go, the titles are just an extra bonus.

I noticed you completely ignored that an MC80 is the only other ship that can reliably live through a triple tap from Demolisher, but sure....it's all because it can take Homeone title.

Red dice are prone to rolling blanks, knowing you can turn 1 to an accuracy, and 1 to a 2 damage face, significantly ups the power of a CR90 A side arc.

And I already said an MC80 can do things in one go that no AF can do in one go, the titles are just an extra bonus.

I noticed you completely ignored that an MC80 is the only other ship that can reliably live through a triple tap from Demolisher, but sure....it's all because it can take Homeone title.

Yeah you can kill one with a demolisher pretty reliably or at least cripple it pretty well. Can't do that to 2 AF tho, Only get to hit one at a time!...also harder to keep demo out of 2 AF double arc than it is to keep it out of 1 MC80s double arc. Also 2 AF gives you more activations which is silly to underestimate, also an AF is really not that much less defended than an MC80 vs demolisher, it's literally the difference of a couple shield and hull points. Really, i'm tired of arguing this. I'll just keep on not using this POS ship and keep tabling the living crap out of almost every fleet I fight that brings them...just like I've already been doing!

Good luck with your pickle-brick tho! I really hope it works out for you!

Just to interject,

An mc80 cannot "reliably" in any fashion survive a demo attack.

proceed...

I also don't put a lot of stock into the "tactical considerations" argument. Sorry. All things being equal we are talking about a commander that is equally skilled at flying 2 whales as flying 1 MC80, you can come up with hypotheticals till you are blue in the face, but the only thing we can compare in a vacuum are numbers.

[snip...]

Sorry, but the math is strong in this one. Want to convince me the MC80 is great despite the numbers? Try explaining to me WHY its good rather than attacking why I think its bad. Numbers won't change because you don't think they are important!

I just wanted to point out that reducing the argument to a few simple numbers is as invalid as using anecdotal evidence. Yes, we can generate numbers - but have those numbers been shown to be relevant statistically accurate predictors of victory? i haven't seen that data yet.

Does that mean we can't have discussions about which ship is best or worst? Or course not.

But Hastiator, you're looking to reduce the argument to the numbers only, and you've essentially ruled out analyzing any of the "tactical variables" or "niche builds" that make up a good proportion of the game (exactly how much has been the subject of other threads). Because you limit your data set, your conclusion is predetermined. But it isn't going to be accurate necessarily, nor widely accepted. If it were, we might as well decide each game before we play it, based on the statistical efficiency of the fleets.

So where's that leave us? In the lack of huge resources to analyze our builds and outcomes, we are left with anecdotes.

So I say, bring more anecdotes on!

Just to interject,

An mc80 cannot "reliably" in any fashion survive a demo attack.

proceed...

Whilst this isn't actually true maybe 1 or no other ship can say the same?

Maybe we should run as many of those as possible and nothing else! /s

Just to interject,

An mc80 cannot "reliably" in any fashion survive a demo attack.

proceed...

I know you can't math, so you are excused, or are you talking about your Demolisher+friends making sure that MC80 can't survive a triple tap?

Because maths say unless Demo rolls max damage it doesn't get to triple tap the MC80, that means ridiculously high odds of rolling max damage exclude it from "reliably".

Carry on now

hahaha!

I know no one likes anecdotes, but in 8 tournaments (6 store champs) and a regional, I have played against 7 lists with an Mc80. I killed the mc80 (three in one list) in all but one game and that was due to not even targeting it.

Every demo shot ive taken at an mc80 (albeit to be fair, only one had AP) I have killed it. Only one of those games was I running a "friend bomber firespray" along for the ride.

I hold no sway over probabilistic nature. The maths must be right. A triple tap demo alone (with the build I run) reliably kills an mc80.

Demo+OE+APT+ET+IO+Vader = dead ship.

Lets start with the fact (almost guaranteed) of 6 straight up damage cards without even "taking" the damage. Three of those are faceup.

Then, add in 10 black and 2 red. With the use of only one brace.

All of that, just to get two more damage on the hull.

It both, not hard and so simple, that when I face one, I just line up straight at it and drive away. In last weeks Ohio regional last round, my opponent was clearly trying to do the "slash" maneuver as he set his mc80 to speed 2 and had engine techs primed. I had deployed my demo directly in front of it. He sped straight at me speed 3. I obliged and volleyed on turn one. Double tapped turn two and rammed twice. Killing it. The only reason I had to ram it twice was because of a horrendous broadside roll that only netted a crit hit.

Point being. The mc80 simply cannot survive a demo strike. I don't know really how else to explain it.

But, MATH AWAY!

Maybe the MC80 we have is just a centerpiece command style flagship...whilst later waves will add ships that will synergism with it more/enhance it?

Maybe, maybe. My take on it is that it's far from terrible but it is more difficult to get the most out of it than other ships. If you screw up with it its very unforgiving due to lack of manueverability and small front arc. Compared to the all rounder that is the assault frigate or the speedy corvette I think it's a tough sell.

Still, I've seen it used well and it can be a pain in your opponents backside.

Honestly every faction has that one ship that is hard to make work, but when it does...it's fantastic. For the rebels its the MC80.

Honestly every faction has that one ship that is hard to make work, but when it does...it's fantastic. For the rebels its the MC80.

Huh. I would have voted the Neb B has the hardest rebel ship to make work.

Honestly every faction has that one ship that is hard to make work, but when it does...it's fantastic. For the rebels its the MC80.

Huh. I would have voted the Neb B has the hardest rebel ship to make work.

Naw. Slap yavaris on it and -boom- functional ship.

hahaha!

I know no one likes anecdotes, but in 8 tournaments (6 store champs) and a regional, I have played against 7 lists with an Mc80. I killed the mc80 (three in one list) in all but one game and that was due to not even targeting it.

Every demo shot ive taken at an mc80 (albeit to be fair, only one had AP) I have killed it. Only one of those games was I running a "friend bomber firespray" along for the ride.

I hold no sway over probabilistic nature. The maths must be right. A triple tap demo alone (with the build I run) reliably kills an mc80.

Demo+OE+APT+ET+IO+Vader = dead ship.

Lets start with the fact (almost guaranteed) of 6 straight up damage cards without even "taking" the damage. Three of those are faceup.

Then, add in 10 black and 2 red. With the use of only one brace.

All of that, just to get two more damage on the hull.

It both, not hard and so simple, that when I face one, I just line up straight at it and drive away. In last weeks Ohio regional last round, my opponent was clearly trying to do the "slash" maneuver as he set his mc80 to speed 2 and had engine techs primed. I had deployed my demo directly in front of it. He sped straight at me speed 3. I obliged and volleyed on turn one. Double tapped turn two and rammed twice. Killing it. The only reason I had to ram it twice was because of a horrendous broadside roll that only netted a crit hit.

Point being. The mc80 simply cannot survive a demo strike. I don't know really how else to explain it.

But, MATH AWAY!

He flew his MC80 directly towards an unactivated Demolisher when he didn't have the initiative? and I am supposed to class that paragon of play as the reason you can claim "MC80's always die." I don't even....

An MC80 with AP and Lando on it, will live 9/10 in a competent players hands vrs a demolisher triple tap, the math supports it, not terrible players making terrible choices.

Honestly every faction has that one ship that is hard to make work, but when it does...it's fantastic. For the rebels its the MC80.

Huh. I would have voted the Neb B has the hardest rebel ship to make work.

Naw. Slap yavaris on it and -boom- functional ship.

But without titles? I'd vote for the Neb...and I love them.

Hahaha...

Ok..so now, we have to preclude "dumb play" as a mitigating factor?

I'm not sure how else I can explain it dude. Other than, "check yer maths?"

Honestly every faction has that one ship that is hard to make work, but when it does...it's fantastic. For the rebels its the MC80.

Huh. I would have voted the Neb B has the hardest rebel ship to make work.

Naw. Slap yavaris on it and -boom- functional ship.

But without titles? I'd vote for the Neb...and I love them.

Without titles they are still fantastic warships...you point them torwards your target and use them with xI7's to strip shields for the larger attacks.

You can also afford to lose them if it comes down to it, as they aren't the dedicated heavy hitter, and aren't a major chunk of your points. The MC80 is typically the anchor, when it goes down..you're typically boned.

He flew his MC80 directly towards an unactivated Demolisher when he didn't have the initiative? and I am supposed to class that paragon of play as the reason you can claim "MC80's always die." I don't even....

I'm not sure what alternative you would propose here. It's not like the MC80 can run away from Demolisher for any length of time. It doesn't make a huge difference whether it happens on turn 1 or turn 2...

Isn't it somewhat sad that Admiral Ackbar's flagship from endor can get duced by a pocket star destroyer what...a fourth of it's size?

I love my MC80 won 2 store champs with this list

Rebels Fleet (375 of 400 pts)
Commander: Garm Bel Iblis (25 pts)
Flagship: (141 pts)

• MC80 Command Cruiser(106 pts)
• Defiance (5 pts)
• Adar Tallon (10 pts)
• Boosted Comms (4 pts)
• Electronic Counter Measures (7 pts)
• XX-9 Turbolasers (5 pts)
• Leading Shots (4 pts)
  

Fleet Ship 1: (101 pts)

• Assault Frigate Mark II B(72 pts)
• Support Officer (4 pts)
• Gunnery Team (7 pts)
• Expanded Hangar Bay (5 pts)
• Electronic Counter Measures (7 pts)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6 pts)
  

Squadrons (133 of 134 pts):

• 4x Scurgg H-6 Bomber (64 pts)
• 1x Moldy Crow - Jan Ors (19 pts)
• 3x X-Wing Squadron (39 pts)
• 1x A-Wing Squadron (11 pts)
  

Objectives: Precision Strike , Fire Lanes , Superior Positions

use it the way it is meant to be used pushing bombers into the face of your opponent and make the squirm

Its telling how much of this thread revolves around demolisher....

He flew his MC80 directly towards an unactivated Demolisher when he didn't have the initiative? and I am supposed to class that paragon of play as the reason you can claim "MC80's always die." I don't even....

I'm not sure what alternative you would propose here. It's not like the MC80 can run away from Demolisher for any length of time. It doesn't make a huge difference whether it happens on turn 1 or turn 2...

See this is the thing - I think against a properly built MC80 supported by the other ships, I think if demo didn't get his run in turn 1 or 2 the rebels have a pretty good shot at nailing him at least by forcing him to commit and trade off something less important.

I tinkered with an MC 80 build this morning vs my 2ND place SC Imperial list.

Somebody mentioned using the corners of the board with the 80. I think I agree that is a valid tactic. If you hug the short end of the board, you can force a mistake such as running off the board while still firing away good broadsides. The trick I used was a blocker MC30 that softened up Demolisher and forced an offset approach making the ram-block difficult.

I don't think it's an easy or even great ship, but still usable. My issue now is using my 42 points of fighters in an effective way. I may need to add some named pilots to leverage my use of Rieekan.

42 Rieekan fighters could be Han and Tycho.... both great soloists.