This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

or the Isd could, well, Destroy said object that decided to park in front of it

Not completely true here. Going to have to go colloquial here.

I took on Swags dual ISD list. In that match my mc80 parked itself on the satellite and rammed both isd's. Spamming commands. Guess which ship made it out. The mc80 after downing both isds.

If you dont have x17s then mc80s just laugh at you.

There is some info that is missing on your anecdotal evidence that might help it, but there is no way (other than fickle dice gods) that a MC80 rammed into the front arc of a previously undamaged ISD is going out on top..

Why is the ISD Undamaged?

So offer your adaptation instead of just throwing peanuts from the gallery. I got you pegged as a chump player anyway. Blowhard who takes a good game, but sucks. My bets is Mattshadow lord and most people on here would wipe the floor with you. You can also tell the chumps on here.

Just so you know.... I'm stealing this.

I can't take credit for it. There is a whole album of them at http://imgur.com/a/QDbyt#0each for a different logical penalty.

So offer your adaptation instead of just throwing peanuts from the gallery. I got you pegged as a chump player anyway. Blowhard who takes a good game, but sucks. My bets is Mattshadow lord and most people on here would wipe the floor with you. You can also tell the chumps on here.

Just so you know.... I'm stealing this.

I can't take credit for it. There is a whole album of them at http://imgur.com/a/QDbyt#0each for a different logical penalty.

Oh....... you have no idea of what you have unleashed by showing me this

This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

or the Isd could, well, Destroy said object that decided to park in front of it

Not completely true here. Going to have to go colloquial here.

I took on Swags dual ISD list. In that match my mc80 parked itself on the satellite and rammed both isd's. Spamming commands. Guess which ship made it out. The mc80 after downing both isds.

If you dont have x17s then mc80s just laugh at you.

There is some info that is missing on your anecdotal evidence that might help it, but there is no way (other than fickle dice gods) that a MC80 rammed into the front arc of a previously undamaged ISD is going out on top..

Why is the ISD Undamaged?

Because it is commanded by an utter genius of cause..

I was just questioning Ginkapos statement that a MC80 could park in the front arc of an ISD, blocking it, and assuming both could not leave this blocking/ramming situation, would get out on top. Assuming that both ships are roughly equally damaged or not damaged I doubt that this is the usual course it would take..

Its why I hate these anecdotal comparisons...

If you want to approach it meaningfully, then you need to approach it scientifically - and in doing so, define your variables.

Only approach a comparison in a vacuum by stating that you are approaching your comparison in a vacuum...

This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

or the Isd could, well, Destroy said object that decided to park in front of it

Not completely true here. Going to have to go colloquial here.

I took on Swags dual ISD list. In that match my mc80 parked itself on the satellite and rammed both isd's. Spamming commands. Guess which ship made it out. The mc80 after downing both isds.

If you dont have x17s then mc80s just laugh at you.

There is some info that is missing on your anecdotal evidence that might help it, but there is no way (other than fickle dice gods) that a MC80 rammed into the front arc of a previously undamaged ISD is going out on top..

Are you you saying you rammed both ISDs each turn? If so, that's impossible. Only the closest ship gets rammed.

Outside of very unlucky die rolls on your opponent's sake, I don't see any scenario where an MC80 lives more than a turn or two inside the front arc of two ISDs.

Youre missing something else. BOTH ISDs.

I did neglect to mention Lando, defiance title and supporting Taintive IV. These were not the main difference. Playing to the mc80s strength I spammed engineering, they were using nav commands. This was the key.

Youre missing something else. BOTH ISDs.

I did neglect to mention Lando, defiance title and supporting Taintive IV. These were not the main difference. Playing to the mc80s strength I spammed engineering, they were using nav commands. This was the key.

Your first sentence is really confusing me. The skepticism is that you were able to tank two ISD front arcs for long enough to burn them both down (assumption that they were both at fullish health). I'm not sure how clarifying there were two ISDs eases that skepticism.

I mean, I guess it could be believed if there were just really bad dice rolls going on. Lando helps a little too. But I definitely wouldn't walk away from an experience like that with anything other than "Holy cow, am I lucky or what."

Well that was my point. I am not saying its normal, just that the mc80 isnt as flimsy as portrayed.

Lucky placement so they had to attack different arcs.

One was damaged badly having suffered on its approach.

Lando did wonderwork.

Space station under the mc80.

Multiple factors that made it favorable. I am not denying it wasnt lucky. My ship did tank two isd front arcs. Deal with it.

Yeah, well my Neb B's side arc can tank 2 ISD front arcs indefinitely if they are rolling straight whiffs.

Yeah, well my Neb B's side arc can tank 2 ISD front arcs indefinitely if they are rolling straight whiffs.

I want your Neb B's, then. Because mine can't stand up to a stiff breeze.

Well that was my point. I am not saying its normal, just that the mc80 isnt as flimsy as portrayed.

Lucky placement so they had to attack different arcs.

One was damaged badly having suffered on its approach.

Lando did wonderwork.

Space station under the mc80.

Multiple factors that made it favorable. I am not denying it wasnt lucky. My ship did tank two isd front arcs. Deal with it.

Pretty much the definition of anecdotal. I have a bunch of anecdotal stuff where I have pulverized MC80s with bombers, with a single demolisher, with a pair of expanded launcher raiders, with a pair of MC30s....etc....etc....

Yeah, well my Neb B's side arc can tank 2 ISD front arcs indefinitely if they are rolling straight whiffs.

I want your Neb B's, then. Because mine can't stand up to a stiff breeze.

Something something skill. Something something store championship winner get gud.

Going to have to go colloquial here.

I am sorry you are upset. I did caveat my post for a reason.

Going to have to go colloquial here.

I am sorry you are upset. I did caveat my post for a reason.

"Well that was my point. I am not saying its normal, just that the mc80 isnt as flimsy as portrayed."

I'm fine giving you a break, dude. I mean, you're sharing a cool experience and that seriously is a cool thing to have occurred. It's just you presented it as some sort of data in the MC80s favor and it's anything but that. That's all we're hassling you about.

That and this is the internet and we're jerks here.

When discussing the merits of a ship, I don't feel anecdotal evidence is as valuable as theory behind it.

I mean, sure, I have rolled a total of 2 damage out of the front arc of an ISD, I have rolled 5 total damage out of a demolisher DOUBLE ARC. This says absolutely nothing about the statistical properties of these ships other than "rolling is random"

If you are trying to make the point that the MC80 is a more survivable ship than people make it out to be because if you sit it on a station and happen to have it kitted out and supported a certain way and happen to have support ships in range and happen to have spammed engineering commands, I'm sorry, but you aren't really making a point about an MC80s properties you are making a point about coincidences.

Except that none of that just happened, in the same way demolisher doesnt just happen to have ordnance upgrades, intel officer and a bunch of supporting raiders.

But youre right being able to move and shoot is a rubbish upgrade in a vacuum.

Every discussion about the merits of a ship should include upgrading its strengths till they are "overpowered".

Except that none of that just happened, in the same way demolisher doesnt just happen to have ordnance upgrades, intel officer and a bunch of supporting raiders.

But youre right being able to move and shoot is a rubbish upgrade in a vacuum.

Every discussion about the merits of a ship should include upgrading its strengths till they are "overpowered".

Hes Innocent!

Except that none of that just happened, in the same way demolisher doesnt just happen to have ordnance upgrades, intel officer and a bunch of supporting raiders.

But youre right being able to move and shoot is a rubbish upgrade in a vacuum.

Every discussion about the merits of a ship should include upgrading its strengths till they are "overpowered".

No, but every ship and every upgrade has a cost. That cost can be used to mathematically and rationally compare aspects of that ship "naked" then you can compare upgrades impact on the ships you are comparing on a point to point basis. I have done this. The analysis is pretty clear that on paper the MC80 is not optimal. it is not "the best choice in the most cases" this is VERY difficult to argue against because it is based on facts. Therefore it comes down to where it is the "best choice in specific cases" which is, I believe, what the OP was asking for in the thread.

... See.

Variables not Defined.

For the record I quite like the MC80. I own 3. I would very much like to find an excuse to use them more often even though I am primarily an Imperial player.

I even started a very similar thread for ideas on using all 3 at once. I think the consensus was that it was a bad idea but a couple of fun builds came from it.

But having analyzed and observed a great deal, it would be a cold day in hell before I took an MC80 to a tournament. Maybe I'm not "good enough" to make up for its shortcomings, but I don't understand why people don't see that this is yet again further proof that it is not the best choice most of the time!

... See.

Variables not Defined.

Dont ruin my troll. I know this is the problem, you know it. But until anyone defines them I will argue from whatever obscure angle I feel like....

I'm not ruining your Troll... I'm defending it...

I mean, which would you rather be...

Correct.

Or technically correct.

?

But having analyzed and observed a great deal, it would be a cold day in hell before I took an MC80 to a tournament. Maybe I'm not "good enough" to make up for its shortcomings, but I don't understand why people don't see that this is yet again further proof that it is not the best choice most of the time!

According to this data, it was the best choice approximately half of the time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CFxsUmQgOTKOKQ8E5LOi1spviLkuJxtmxzhm7e23A40/edit#gid=594430368

I honestly don't feel that the MC80 isn't a bad option for the Rebels. Even though it's slow I do apreciate the extra shields and hull that it has and I tend to lean towards making it tougher. I favour the Assault Cruiser varient with it's two defensive upgrade slots and tend to look at stuff like Engineering Team, Redundant Shields, ECM and Raymus Antilles when going for cards. I haven't really played a lot of games with the ship though so I haven't got much of a feel for exactly how much punnishment it can take.