I would like to demonstrate the weakness of the MC80 to blockers even when equipped with Engine Techs and using Nav orders to exploit them.

This image shows how the MC80 might compare to an AFB when moving in open space. The MC80 can emulate the speed 3 curve of an AFB, or perform a wide range of other moves including tighter turns (only one of which is shown here), making it a more manoeuvrable ship as long as it keeps getting those Nav orders.




However, even the Engine Tech MC80 remains much easier to block. It only simulates moving at speed 3, and in reality must make two distinct, separate moves. The image below shows a Gladiator parked in the front arc of both ships (placement does not have to be exact, there's a pretty wide margin for error on the Gladiator's side).

The AFB can get past it at speed 3 (there are some Gladiator placement positions where Nav would be required to do this, but it's often possible to slip past even without Nav).

However, there is no measuring-ruler adjustment that will get the MC80 past this sort of a block due to the fact it cannot actually travel above speed 2 in a single move.



Conclusion: Engine Techs do not help a Speed 2 ship get past many common, simple blocking placements.

A fact know since the before the MC80 was released?

Yawn...Welcome to 6 months ago. What have you done to adapt?

I would like to demonstrate the weakness of the MC80 to blockers even when equipped with Engine Techs and using Nav orders to exploit them.

This image shows how the MC80 might compare to an AFB when moving in open space. The MC80 can emulate the speed 3 curve of an AFB, or perform a wide range of other moves including tighter turns (only one of which is shown here), making it a more manoeuvrable ship as long as it keeps getting those Nav orders.

However, even the Engine Tech MC80 remains much easier to block. It only simulates moving at speed 3, and in reality must make two distinct, separate moves. The image below shows a Gladiator parked in the front arc of both ships (placement does not have to be exact, there's a pretty wide margin for error on the Gladiator's side).

The AFB can get past it at speed 3 (there are some Gladiator placement positions where Nav would be required to do this, but it's often possible to slip past even without Nav).

However, there is no measuring-ruler adjustment that will get the MC80 past this sort of a block due to the fact it cannot actually travel above speed 2 in a single move.

Conclusion: Engine Techs do not help a Speed 2 ship get past many common, simple blocking placements.

This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

I haven't posted in a while. And I'm so happy to see this thread. I want to love the MC80, and I've yet to get it work.

But, I'm excited to try more. I'm definitely feeling the need to use all 400 points and embrace 2nd player and that just screams a Defiance equipped 80.

I'm planning to go to Pittsburgh for the Regions after some prodding from fellow players. I'll probably take a Rebel list and I'm willing to bet I'll swing with an 80.

A fact know since the before the MC80 was released?

Yawn...Welcome to 6 months ago. What have you done to adapt?

Some people appreciate clear, visual illustrations. Some people haven't even been playing the game for 6 months.

It is easy to look at the weaknesses of a ship in isolation, if putting a ship in front of an MC80 is a good idea for your opponent then what have you done to help or hinder this tactic?

Why is there a basic assumption that because I have Engine Techs I will need to use them every turn, a Guam Token can drive the ship forward at speed 3 twice a game, which may be all it takes to sidestep that pesky blocker. Running my ships in a line would mean that ship blocking may just have to survive two ships activations and many squadrons to execute the block.

I'm going to be taking 2xMC80s with 134 points of Rebel Squadrons on the weekend... Because no-one'll expect it.

A fact know since the before the MC80 was released?

Yawn...Welcome to 6 months ago. What have you done to adapt?

Some people appreciate clear, visual illustrations. Some people haven't even been playing the game for 6 months.

They have adapted. Instead of saying one particular move that an opponent can do trap one ship therefore I won't play, they countered it.

Yeah my buddy and I have refined his rebel squadrons list through iteration after iteration, tournament after tournament and really it didn't start working until he ditched the MC80

He now runs 2 AF and a Yavaris and has since won a SC and placed second in another when with the MC80 centerpiece he struggled very much.

From an imperial perspective I find that with careful obstacle placement and (if the gods are good) if you go second and they choose minefields, MC80s are just soooo predictable and vulnerable to any well flown fleet.

At the last SC which I won I faced an MC80 at the final table and was able to isolate it, stick my demolisher right in its front arc so it couldn't go anywhere while my ISD crashed into its side to finish it and my squadrons met it from the other side of the board cause I could mentally draw the line of where it had to go. Slow, ponderous and when caught by an Ozzel pounce just doesn't get to shoot that many times. B wing swarm easy to lock down, equally predictable.

I think the MC80 has to be the king of the list, everything built around making it work, which is the definition of inflexible. I actually did the math once on points per shield, points per hull, points per die etc. comparing the MC80 to AF and the MC80 did not compare well, add to it the inflexibility and lack of manouverability? yuck. Maybe with flotillas you will be able to build a "regenerating troll" style MC80 centred fleet or something but right now for me personally when i line up against an opponent i am much more concerned if I see a couple of MC30s and CR90s or a cr90 swarm or high activation list. I see a MC80 and it just looks like a tasty point pinata.

A fact know since the before the MC80 was released?

Yawn...Welcome to 6 months ago. What have you done to adapt?

A fact know since the before the MC80 was released?

Yawn...Welcome to 6 months ago. What have you done to adapt?

Some people appreciate clear, visual illustrations. Some people haven't even been playing the game for 6 months.

And for those that haven't it is appreciated. For those that have this is not new information.

They have adapted. Instead of saying one particular move that an opponent can do trap one ship therefore I won't play, they countered it.

Well if you read a few posts back you would have seen that I made the longest address in this thread to every issue raised by the OP but hey I'm throwing peanuts I guess! So much for quitting the game. I see you've taken on some new found bitterness as you insulted me several times for no good reason.

And yes it was a nice visual illustration of 6 month old information, it took effort to make, obviously because they want to contribute and share knowledge about the game.

But it doesn't change any understanding of the long established facts. It's just a nice way of showing it.

Anybody can put two ships in isolation and show a weakness or a particular play one way or the other.

It is good for illustration of a particular situation with no other factors at play. It's a joke that anybody could see that illustration and say "see it's terrible!" There is a massive difference between an illustration and actual game.

This stinks of "Squadrons suck and will never be good", "Raiders are useless and will never be good". Now let the "Terribad MC80" join the ranks of popularly maligned 'things' that people are quietly stomping with.

Alright, well if I've read the OP's initial question right I have regular success with an MC80 in one very specific list and no other lists...well I did. I played the MC80 a lot when it came out, and since then I'm mostly done with Armada although I keep lurking the forums.

MC-80 Assault Cruiser + Projection Experts + Defiance + Enhanced Armament.

I apologize I don't have the rest of the list, but it goes as follows: The list is built entirely around the MC80 itself, which, aside from turn 1 or 2, does nothing but spam Engineering Commands to use Projection Experts. This way the 80 leverages its large shield pool by spreading it out amongst the supporting picket ships, giving them (ideally) more longevity than they would otherwise have. Defiance and EA (plus the Assault Cruiser over the command Cruiser) give it a large number of red dice without the need for planning CF commands. Five Red dice is more than any other ship throws at long range without CF, and Defiance lets you add red, black or blue dice to taste.

If your enemy cannily decides he's going to attack the 80 itself while you farm out your shields, you use those banked engineering commands to instead boost up your own shields and hull while leveraging your 6-8 dice broadsides to either pound the guy directly attacking you, or discourage his buddies from assisting him if he hides in your front. You rely on your CR90's, Nebs and MC30's to swat ships that block your front, overlapping their arcs of fire with your own (smaller) forward arc to keep things out. I found in particular a Neb Escort Frigate running a pair or Trio of Y-wings helps with this.

This list has lost, but I've -never- lost the MC80 when played this way. KushielRDF has enough kills of my MC80's to embarrass me, but it's the one way I field it that it works.

TL;DR - I have one very specific list built entirely around the MC80 + Shield Projection Experts combo and otherwise little luck.

This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

or the Isd could, well, Destroy said object that decided to park in front of it

Not completely true here. Going to have to go colloquial here.

I took on Swags dual ISD list. In that match my mc80 parked itself on the satellite and rammed both isd's. Spamming commands. Guess which ship made it out. The mc80 after downing both isds.

If you dont have x17s then mc80s just laugh at you.

Hello everyone,

Just thought i'd share the stats that i've been collecting here in Australia, NSW.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CFxsUmQgOTKOKQ8E5LOi1spviLkuJxtmxzhm7e23A40/edit#gid=594430368

Interestingly enough lists that have MC80s are coming 1st place just as much as lists with ISDs.

The 3 Rebel ships should focus fire on that blocking GSD.

Thanks, Irokenics. Interesting stats, my hat is off to whoever complied it all.

Thanks, Irokenics. Interesting stats, my hat is off to whoever complied it all.

Haha thanks, its mainly compiled by me with input from the Sydney/NSW FB players page and the FLGS that send me their results.

Pity you're all the way over in Perth!

im just gonna chime in here to say ive won and placed top 3 in most tournaments i go to often winning with my MC80 -DUE- to its expensive points cost, ive had great success using it as a carrier for high burst damage with scurggs loading it up to be 180 or so points, salvation as my decoy and tantive for it to nav the engine techs, this thing if you dont deploy like a scrub you will be in their deployment zone by turn 3 far out of reach of being finished off. at the end of the day ive black eyed their fleet and they have killed next to nothing in points, easy wins if they are trying to trade up.

when used in my method the opponent cant reliably get any points out of you unless they down the moncal, which is really difficult if its not letting you shoot it, all these comments about being blocked by demolisher are just silly, every rebel player knows its the imperials most powerful ship and its public enemy no.1, they arent just gonna let it deploy favorably vs it and it will be targeted above all else due to its predictable attack window. claiming its a bad ship cause you made a bad mistake is just silly, admit it.

So offer your adaptation instead of just throwing peanuts from the gallery. I got you pegged as a chump player anyway. Blowhard who takes a good game, but sucks. My bets is Mattshadow lord and most people on here would wipe the floor with you. You can also tell the chumps on here.

So offer your adaptation instead of just throwing peanuts from the gallery. I got you pegged as a chump player anyway. Blowhard who takes a good game, but sucks. My bets is Mattshadow lord and most people on here would wipe the floor with you. You can also tell the chumps on here.

Just so you know.... I'm stealing this.

@MattShadowlord - Irokenics gathered and recorded all the information himself, he doesn't get enough praise for his work in building the Sydney / NSW community.

On the actual topic at hand I feel like others have gone over pretty much everything already but I'll throw in my two cents for what it's worth (what else are internet forums for right?).

Straight off the bat this is all largely anecdotal, but despite assertions otherwise I still believe there is some utility in anecdotes, especially when you get a large body of them like you see in these threads.

My first forays with the MC80 when Wave II dropped did not end well and left me on the fence about the quality of the ship. In hindsight, I feel this was because I had become very familiar with the Assault Frigate in Wave I, and was trying to fly the MC80 in a similar way. I actually stopped playing Rebels competitively for the first few months after Wave II dropped and had good success with a 4 ship Motti list with an ISD at it's heart.

When I did return to Rebels, what I found made the MC80 work for me wasn't having one very specific role for it (like the powerful Independence MC80), or a eureka breakthrough in listing, really what made it sing was experience and getting a feel for how it handles. I'm not saying the answer is 'get good', but maybe to keep with it.

Less anecdotally, I would say that a lot of the MC80s strengths are being downplayed and its weaknesses the opposite.

So lets start with it's weaknesses. 100% I would agree it isn't the most manoeuvrable ship in the game and as someone who has been on either end of the equation the best way to kill it is to stick a blocker in its front and shove dice down its throat. That is the MC80s main weakness, in the same way that every ship has a major weakness (huge majority of the small ships melt to any serious fire, ISD can struggle to bring its big gun to bear, etc). As the Rebel you need to play against that. Try and deploy to protect your front from the obvious blocker (Demolisher), drop some early nav commands so you turn harder than your opponent expects, or fly your fleet so that supporting arcs of fire can wither away the blockers before they can make the kill.

I disagree on the arcs and the firepower. Six dice at medium and either four or three at long (sans Defiance or Ackbar or other dice boosting features) is a lot of dice no matter which you way you swing it and I think too often players forget a time where firepower of that magnitude was the highest you could achieve in the game. The trade off vis a vie Assault Frigates with Gunnery Teams is reliable spike damage vs the ability to double the firepower (albeit crucially against different targets). MC80s pre-upgrades pack a hell of a punch, and really most ships (especially large ones) are going to be flown with upgrades that maximise their potential (a Defiance Ackbar MC80 can easily be throwing seven dice re-rollable at long range for example). @BiggsIRL recently raised the great debate of whether Gunnery Teams teach bad habits, and while I didn't agree with all his points, it reflected two different fleet styles. One which focuses on spike damage through double arcs and killing individual ships at the expense of damage across the whole fleet, and the other which does the opposite and aims to reduce the opponent's fleet at roughly the same rate. MC80s, in my view, fall into that first style, and with their crazy side arcs have a relatively easy time of keeping their biggest guns firing from the first exchange to the last.

Finally, yeah they're not unkillable immortals, but by god that ship can take a good punching. Hats off to you @Reinholt if you're doing what a good opposing admiral should do, pinning it in place, alpha striking it hard, and not giving it the chance to shift those shields and mitigate damage effectively. The tactics you describe don't strike me necessarily as a failing of the ship, but of you just flying really well against it.

I've taken the MC80 out to two tournaments so far (both store champs). The first was a 14 player tourney which I was able to win with a Garm double (the horror) MC-80, TRCR90a, and four YT2400s list, and the second was a 20 player tournament I placed 9th in with a janky Riekkan 3 NK-7 equipped CR90b and Defiance MC80 list. Honestly, I was on the verge of hating it when I first tried my hand at it so I can understand the reaction, now I love the ship and am trying to design Rebel lists I like without it so I don't get into a rut again!

I've been following this thread with interest. I am not convinced one way or the other whether it's a "terribad" ship (whatever that means to you; dripping with hyperbole or absolute sincerity), or an "awesome" ship.

What I do know is that large, expensive ships are not for me. They don't suit my playstyle. I like to have more smaller ships with multiple activations and speed. If any ship does not suit your play-style or your strategy paradigms, you are probably not going to do well with it. This will lead to confirmation bias and a flawed analysis of the ship.

This perfectly illustrates why I am not a fan. Base is too big and they don't go fast enough to compensate for it, unlike the ISD, which, at speed 3 could get around a small base blocker.

or the Isd could, well, Destroy said object that decided to park in front of it

Not completely true here. Going to have to go colloquial here.

I took on Swags dual ISD list. In that match my mc80 parked itself on the satellite and rammed both isd's. Spamming commands. Guess which ship made it out. The mc80 after downing both isds.

If you dont have x17s then mc80s just laugh at you.

There is some info that is missing on your anecdotal evidence that might help it, but there is no way (other than fickle dice gods) that a MC80 rammed into the front arc of a previously undamaged ISD is going out on top..