Ten Numb + VI + Mangler Cannon = A bad day for Fel.

I've never feared Triple Autoceptors or Palp Aces with the Ten at Ten list (Ten Numb + VI + Manger Cannon, Airen Cracken + VI, Blue Squadron + FCS + Heavy Laser Cannon, Bandit Squadron).

I'm not going to claim I've never lost to it...I have. But I beat it more than I lose to it.

Because Fel WILL be in arc at Range 3 and Fel WILL take a crit. Fel then becomes easy meat.

You can sub in a two tacticians, an advanced sensor, a shield upgrade, and tracer missiles to make Fel's life even worse by stacking that stress on him too.

Honestly doubt that. Ten Numb is one of these "counters", that really aren't, especially when facing triple Imp Aces / Squints.

Sure, if you'r opponents tries to run away the whole game Numb can smoothly crit him away. However if he simply tries getting into range 1 and actually kill Numb, he'll drop like every B-Wing in a bit more than one round. At that point you probably killed one of his aces. Then what? Cracken and a Blue Squad against two Squint Aces? Have fun

Good luck getting into range 1 and out of arc of Ten Numb. With VI he moves after Fel, and has the barrel roll to catch him in arc. Mangler works at all ranges so he really just needs to roll a hit to push a crit through. Every time I've run VI+Mangler Numb I've beat a list with Fel in it. The main problem with Ten Numb is that he's not very good against a lot of other lists. He just doesn't do enough damage or has enough defense to justify his point cost.

I say it's disappointing that you guys bashing Paragoomba right now; you sound worse than he does normally. Especially you DR4CO. Assuming someone has had 3 years to figure out how to take him down, when his mods and squad has changed over the years, and/or assuming someone's been playing from the start.

I hate Fel myself, though most of that's due to flying Z-95 swarms, and playing competitively just over a year. It's hard to set up a block for Fel or other aces, especially when there are more than one around, but I've gotten better over time. There's also not many people that play him often locally. But the deal is even if you set up a block, with Zs you've only got one chance to nuke him, as you'll lose most of your set-up with the Zs. 2v4 is tough to hit, I can usually get a damage or two in with my Zs just to chucking lots of dice but getting that last hit in time is not easy at times (as one or more Zs went to block).

I'm considering taking him to a tournament just to see how he flies; that will help me a lot to figure out how to beat it.

Good luck getting into range 1 and out of arc of Ten Numb. With VI he moves after Fel, and has the barrel roll to catch him in arc. Mangler works at all ranges so he really just needs to roll a hit to push a crit through. Every time I've run VI+Mangler Numb I've beat a list with Fel in it. The main problem with Ten Numb is that he's not very good against a lot of other lists. He just doesn't do enough damage or has enough defense to justify his point cost.

The problem is that you're investing about ten points between the price of the Mangler cannon and Ten's pilot ability, and essentially the 'one unblockable crit' is its only real edge over a primary attack - against a lot of other squads it's mostly a waste.

The time I've seen him work quite well is with Biggs in support - forcing your opponent to take him out first, and adding a second 3-dice attack for chopping up large amounts of hull quickly.

I'm considering taking him to a tournament just to see how he flies; that will help me a lot to figure out how to beat it.

And that is the best idea, it helps to see the "Green 2" issue very clearly, it's also good to see what other people do to kill him.

Though honestly, while I've never flown a Z swarm, I imagine it's one of the most difficult squads to fight Soontir in unless you get bugzappers.

I'm considering taking him to a tournament just to see how he flies; that will help me a lot to figure out how to beat it.

And that is the best idea, it helps to see the "Green 2" issue very clearly, it's also good to see what other people do to kill him.

Though honestly, while I've never flown a Z swarm, I imagine it's one of the most difficult squads to fight Soontir in unless you get bugzappers.

Yes it is hard to fight aces with Z swarm, and Bugzappers at PS1 hurts so much against other swarms. B-Wings, Crackswarm, Rebel Zs, and now Torp Boats all get to tear the poor Zs apart before they can shoot.

Maybe it's time to load the Z-swarm up with concussion missiles and up the PS bid a bit? 20-dice alpha strikes await!

Maybe it's time to load the Z-swarm up with concussion missiles and up the PS bid a bit? 20-dice alpha strikes await!

7 Talas with Tracers has done well for me. Also going to try Erza soon. Sure you could do concussion Talas but I'd like more Zs than that once the missiles are gone

Actually all the auto damage **** from the ghost pisses me off.

I lost to that ghost last tournament, but I can tell you one thing: You must be flying pretty retarded to get caught in range one by that ghostly brick. And outside of range 1 the ghost becomes pretty tame with that configuration. The only downside is really that you should break off your attack often because the ghost is a break that WILL kill nearly all TIE-Fighters in a single turn if you get into range 1 to it. Don´t underestimate the range 1 thread, stay in range 3, and annihilate the ghost.

I'm not sharing it, but I made a build that basically makes that impossible. =)

Sadly, its worst match is 3uboat. haha!

Autoblaster Ghost is bad against 3 Jumpys too like against any other build with lots of health and good firepower.

But here i have to disagree with Apocalypse, you don't have to fly retarded to get caught by the Ghost. Therecare different threat levels though. Hera with IA, Zeb, EU and FCS or AC is probably hardest to avoid. If she has to she will just look at Soontirs maneuver and make him bump. Then she takes 0-4 danage and annihilates him with Zeb. This is one of the hardest counters to Imp aces there is. And it works really well unless you just lose your ghost too fast.

The other build is a sinple Lothal or Chopper with Hera and Zeb Crew and Autoblaster. This thing is not as dangerous but costs way less and Aces can't ignore FCS 4 dice attacks or R1 Autoblasters for long either. You can also combine this with a Dash for good measure and literally ignore Debris fields with all your list.

Now these could shut down Palpmobile pretty well, sadly tgey just get annihilated by U-Boats!

This discussion amuses me (as do most discussions where Goomba is involved).

Soontir has been around since, what, Wave 2? Early 2013? If you haven't figured out how to handle him in the past three years, I don't think there is a person alive who can help you.

He wasn't an issue before Autothrusters and Palpatine.

Given the amount of threads back then from Rebel players pooling their knowledge and tactics to take him down, I'd say he was. Granted, he's only gotten stronger since then.

Today though, I think that he is a non-issue for most lists. He either dies, or runs away all game.

Good luck getting into range 1 and out of arc of Ten Numb. With VI he moves after Fel, and has the barrel roll to catch him in arc. Mangler works at all ranges so he really just needs to roll a hit to push a crit through. Every time I've run VI+Mangler Numb I've beat a list with Fel in it. The main problem with Ten Numb is that he's not very good against a lot of other lists. He just doesn't do enough damage or has enough defense to justify his point cost.

The problem is that you're investing about ten points between the price of the Mangler cannon and Ten's pilot ability, and essentially the 'one unblockable crit' is its only real edge over a primary attack - against a lot of other squads it's mostly a waste.

The time I've seen him work quite well is with Biggs in support - forcing your opponent to take him out first, and adding a second 3-dice attack for chopping up large amounts of hull quickly.

alternatively you could stick flechette torps and guidance chips on him for 2 points.

Ten Numb + VI + Mangler Cannon = A bad day for Fel.

I've never feared Triple Autoceptors or Palp Aces with the Ten at Ten list (Ten Numb + VI + Manger Cannon, Airen Cracken + VI, Blue Squadron + FCS + Heavy Laser Cannon, Bandit Squadron).

I'm not going to claim I've never lost to it...I have. But I beat it more than I lose to it.

Because Fel WILL be in arc at Range 3 and Fel WILL take a crit. Fel then becomes easy meat.

You can sub in a two tacticians, an advanced sensor, a shield upgrade, and tracer missiles to make Fel's life even worse by stacking that stress on him too.

Honestly doubt that. Ten Numb is one of these "counters", that really aren't, especially when facing triple Imp Aces / Squints.

Sure, if you'r opponents tries to run away the whole game Numb can smoothly crit him away. However if he simply tries getting into range 1 and actually kill Numb, he'll drop like every B-Wing in a bit more than one round. At that point you probably killed one of his aces. Then what? Cracken and a Blue Squad against two Squint Aces? Have fun

Here's the thing....I still win more often than not. And Trip Interceptors HATE this list.

If you find yourself in Atlanta, I'd be more than happy to demonstrate it.

Good luck getting into range 1 and out of arc of Ten Numb. With VI he moves after Fel, and has the barrel roll to catch him in arc. Mangler works at all ranges so he really just needs to roll a hit to push a crit through. Every time I've run VI+Mangler Numb I've beat a list with Fel in it. The main problem with Ten Numb is that he's not very good against a lot of other lists. He just doesn't do enough damage or has enough defense to justify his point cost.

The problem is that you're investing about ten points between the price of the Mangler cannon and Ten's pilot ability, and essentially the 'one unblockable crit' is its only real edge over a primary attack - against a lot of other squads it's mostly a waste.

The time I've seen him work quite well is with Biggs in support - forcing your opponent to take him out first, and adding a second 3-dice attack for chopping up large amounts of hull quickly.

The only lists I've had consistent trouble with is Rebel Regen and the Torkil-Pablo scum builds

Ten Numb with Mangler? Is really bad against Shields.

Yes, 3 interceptor will hate that list, because it's the Rock to their scissors. However, Paper in the form of: Fat Han. Triple Jumpmasters. Super Dash. Bossk with a damage build or Scum Boba will all happily take 1 uncancelled crit while they give you 3 - 4 uncancelled hits/crits.

What are the chances that across 4 agility dice and Palpatine, that you'll be able to get at least 3 evade results? No tokens or Autothrusters, just Palpatine and Stealth Device.

About 48% for the first attack. If you have to use palpatine (you probably will) and there's another shot, the odds are more like 15% - which means the odds of dodging both is pretty low (about 7%)

But yeah, the fact that if you block soontir, you have a 50% chance of missing with a range 1, 3-dice attack is kind of frustrating; you really need a second (well, third, allowing for the blocker) to tag team him as well to be confident of the hit.

The awful thing is that in reality it is more than 50%. It's a 50% of missing assuming you scored 3 hits. Less than that and you're not pushing any damage through.

Entire games revolve around this stupid situation. You have to play very well to begin with to cause this situation. And once you do? Greater than 50% chance you're not getting any damage through at all. Your perfect play meant nothing because you lost a coin flip (with a less than 50% chance of success).

This is on a ship that you have to go all-in against. Either you go all-in at the start with a greater than 50% chance of failure, or you save Soontir for last and have to deal with end game Soontir which is even worse.

Soontir is broken as ****.

Soontir isn't broken, green dice just suck (as does RNG in general)

I'm a dedicated Imperial player, and I personally hate playing WITH Soontir Fel.

He feels FRAGILE (whether or not he is), which has a psychological effect on the player - every time you pick up the green dice you're depending on RNG to defend him, which isn't a solid defense and you know it. It also means that a player will try to barrel+boost before turtling up behind focus+evade+focus unless it's obvious that they CAN'T escape - so if you catch a Soontir in arc you're already ahead mentally.

He's so RNG-dependent that removing or even threatening one of the crutches he depends on (Palpatine) is frightening. The day I dove for his Palpshuttle, making him hard drive his aces towards me, then caught his Soontir point-blank with Vader because he didn't think I'd do a 2 turn... Hilarious.

As far as Rebels goes, I think I'd prefer a Nera Dantels with Deadeye, Flechettes, EM, and Chips to hunt Aces over Ten Numb. Soontir don't live long with extra Stress on his back. What to pair her with?

Double Recspec Kanan with FCS, Dorsal, and what better way to spend those last 20 points than on a Phantom/Ghost pairing to help use all those delightful FCS target locks? Maybe go to Zeb and put FCS on Nera as well, to make her second torp shot even more deadly...

Huh, I think I like this plan. It nails Soontir fairly well, doesn't do too bad against other Aces, and still gets 3 attacks a round. They'll have to choose between nailing the anti-Ace ship (Nera) early on and not touching the Ghost, or letting her do her thing while double FCS-shots tear up the opposition.

Well, Soontir without tokens - and in the wrong range band - is certainly relying on RNG.

But Soontir with focus/evade at range three is close to impossible to hit without shennanigans.

Expected damage from four hits is 0.17, and that's withouth Palp on the table.

That's funny. One of you thinks Fel is too invincible because of RNG and the other one says no, he is to fragile because of RNG. And the third one hates RNG just because...

Well guys it is undeniable that avoiding rolling dice (like Accuracy corrector AB, Autothrusters, Palpatine, Guidance chips that fix your blanks...) is what this meta is all about? So maybe it's not the RNG part of the game that disgusts you, but rather the exact opposite, namely these things circumventing it that are the problem?

I mean rolling dice or other random factors are just a part of nearly every Wargame, and if you don't like it then just go play Chess or Stratego. I understand that at a competitive level it is sometimes annoying to lose games where you make no mistake but your dice just abandon you in the wrong moment. Every wargamer i know has at some point raged about his misfortune or the incredible luck of his opponent. Me included. But then after a few minutes, you realize that IT JUST HAPPENS!

So please stop asking for ways to cancel out or mitigate luck factors in X-Wing. Because that leads to the really frustrating builds you encounter, that hit 94% of their 4-Dice ordnance or that evade everything if they just get one focus on 4-5 dice...

Well, Soontir without tokens - and in the wrong range band - is certainly relying on RNG.

But Soontir with focus/evade at range three is close to impossible to hit without shennanigans.

Expected damage from four hits is 0.17, and that's withouth Palp on the table.

Is your math off or does the calc not work right? 4 hits vs 5 green dice and focus + evade gives me 0.35 damage without AC and 0.08 with AC. 0.007 with AC and Palpatine. Hmmm. Interesting. I think I was doing it wrong.

That's funny. One of you thinks Fel is too invincible because of RNG and the other one says no, he is to fragile because of RNG. And the third one hates RNG just because...

Well guys it is undeniable that avoiding rolling dice (like Accuracy corrector AB, Autothrusters, Palpatine, Guidance chips that fix your blanks...) is what this meta is all about? So maybe it's not the RNG part of the game that disgusts you, but rather the exact opposite, namely these things circumventing it that are the problem?

I mean rolling dice or other random factors are just a part of nearly every Wargame, and if you don't like it then just go play Chess or Stratego. I understand that at a competitive level it is sometimes annoying to lose games where you make no mistake but your dice just abandon you in the wrong moment. Every wargamer i know has at some point raged about his misfortune or the incredible luck of his opponent. Me included. But then after a few minutes, you realize that IT JUST HAPPENS!

So please stop asking for ways to cancel out or mitigate luck factors in X-Wing. Because that leads to the really frustrating builds you encounter, that hit 94% of their 4-Dice ordnance or that evade everything if they just get one focus on 4-5 dice...

Oh, Fel survives quite a lot, don't get me wrong; the odds are forever in his favor. It's just a tension when you pick up the dice and know all that stands between his hull and cold space is the fickleness of greens. I prefer Vader having at least 2 shields to give him a bit less reliance on RNG - or the Inquisitor combining AT with a more favorable 2 hull/2 shield split.

And skilled wargamers make their own luck. Wait, doesn't Star Wars have a quote for this? "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck." Obi-Wan Kenobi, A New Hope. Part of making your own luck is knowing how to minimize RNG.

If all you want from a game is random dice rolls without any real strategy or planning, maybe you should go play Chutes & Ladders or roulette.

Though I do recall one tragic afternoon playing Warhammer 40k where I failed 47 out of 53 3+ saving throws... at first unbelievable, then annoying, then hilarious.

Laughing so hard reading the schrodingers comments lol!

And for those of you crying about the OPness of fel... I have killed him twice with a Bumpmaster, without firing a single shot at him or receiving shots in return. Learn to block scrubs.

Killing Fel is a bit like whale mating habits. Bump and when in doubt bump again.

I mean rolling dice or other random factors are just a part of nearly every Wargame, and if you don't like it then just go play Chess or Stratego. I understand that at a competitive level it is sometimes annoying to lose games where you make no mistake but your dice just abandon you in the wrong moment. Every wargamer i know has at some point raged about his misfortune or the incredible luck of his opponent. Me included. But then after a few minutes, you realize that IT JUST HAPPENS!

so?

every Wargame's competitive scene revolves around eliminating as much unneeded rng as possible, and that's a good thing. It places more emphasis on your flying (ie actual involvement in the game) and less on playing yahtzee or some other boring bull

a little rng is always good to add some variance to matches, but we're already balls deep in some excessive game-ruining rng in this game which presents a limited number of attacks that pin far too much importance on very few rolls

X-wing provides a few outs, thankfully

That's funny. One of you thinks Fel is too invincible because of RNG and the other one says no, he is to fragile because of RNG. And the third one hates RNG just because...

Well guys it is undeniable that avoiding rolling dice (like Accuracy corrector AB, Autothrusters, Palpatine, Guidance chips that fix your blanks...) is what this meta is all about? So maybe it's not the RNG part of the game that disgusts you, but rather the exact opposite, namely these things circumventing it that are the problem?

I mean rolling dice or other random factors are just a part of nearly every Wargame, and if you don't like it then just go play Chess or Stratego. I understand that at a competitive level it is sometimes annoying to lose games where you make no mistake but your dice just abandon you in the wrong moment. Every wargamer i know has at some point raged about his misfortune or the incredible luck of his opponent. Me included. But then after a few minutes, you realize that IT JUST HAPPENS!

So please stop asking for ways to cancel out or mitigate luck factors in X-Wing. Because that leads to the really frustrating builds you encounter, that hit 94% of their 4-Dice ordnance or that evade everything if they just get one focus on 4-5 dice...

You got that right. It's more that these ships are immune to bad rolls while simultaneously benefitting immensely from good rolls.

If someone rolls like a god all game, fine. If it's a mathematical certainty that their evade results are going to convert 3 blanks to 3/4 evades that's just stupidity.

Palp Aces being able to ignore RNG does not eliminate game ruining RNG and place an emphasis on flying. It just means you can fly Soontir like a reckless ******* and have your stack of tokens and freebie dice mods bail you out of situations any normal ship would be screwed in. Not to mention your high PS boost and barrel roll.

It's an interesting thing to note that the ability for Palp Aces to ignore RNG all the time means that in certain circumstances where you can strip all those tokens away, the result is extremely dependent on RNG! With a 3/3 hit attack, a Soontir player has a 50% chance of taking no damage with just 4 agility dice and Palpatine.

Accuracy Corrector ships take away RNG and place an importance on flying. Palp Aces gets to ignore RNG because it's invincible.

This game was supposed to have offense be superior to defense, this is to make the game playable. Ships were supposed to die eventually. This is why defense dice have less evades that attack dice, why defensive cards tend to cost more and aren't as good as offensive versions of the same ability, etc. But Palp Aces has defense far superior to most offense, and it ruins the game.

We also wouldn't need to have easymode TL+Focus 4 dice gunner hyper offense if Soontir wasn't in the game. Maybe 3 attack dice and a focus would be enough. I'm seriously considering running Feedback on my Brobots because I don't think gunner FCS HLC is enough against Soontir, one crucial coinflip goes my opponent's way and I've lost the entire game.

That's funny. One of you thinks Fel is too invincible because of RNG and the other one says no, he is to fragile because of RNG. And the third one hates RNG just because...

Well guys it is undeniable that avoiding rolling dice (like Accuracy corrector AB, Autothrusters, Palpatine, Guidance chips that fix your blanks...) is what this meta is all about? So maybe it's not the RNG part of the game that disgusts you, but rather the exact opposite, namely these things circumventing it that are the problem?

I mean rolling dice or other random factors are just a part of nearly every Wargame, and if you don't like it then just go play Chess or Stratego. I understand that at a competitive level it is sometimes annoying to lose games where you make no mistake but your dice just abandon you in the wrong moment. Every wargamer i know has at some point raged about his misfortune or the incredible luck of his opponent. Me included. But then after a few minutes, you realize that IT JUST HAPPENS!

So please stop asking for ways to cancel out or mitigate luck factors in X-Wing. Because that leads to the really frustrating builds you encounter, that hit 94% of their 4-Dice ordnance or that evade everything if they just get one focus on 4-5 dice...

You got that right. It's more that these ships are immune to bad rolls while simultaneously benefitting immensely from good rolls.

If someone rolls like a god all game, fine. If it's a mathematical certainty that their evade results are going to convert 3 blanks to 3/4 evades that's just stupidity.

Palp Aces being able to ignore RNG does not eliminate game ruining RNG and place an emphasis on flying. It just means you can fly Soontir like a reckless ******* and have your stack of tokens and freebie dice mods bail you out of situations any normal ship would be screwed in. Not to mention your high PS boost and barrel roll.

It's an interesting thing to note that the ability for Palp Aces to ignore RNG all the time means that in certain circumstances where you can strip all those tokens away, the result is extremely dependent on RNG! With a 3/3 hit attack, a Soontir player has a 50% chance of taking no damage with just 4 agility dice and Palpatine.

Accuracy Corrector ships take away RNG and place an importance on flying. Palp Aces gets to ignore RNG because it's invincible.

This game was supposed to have offense be superior to defense, this is to make the game playable. Ships were supposed to die eventually. This is why defense dice have less evades that attack dice, why defensive cards tend to cost more and aren't as good as offensive versions of the same ability, etc. But Palp Aces has defense far superior to most offense, and it ruins the game.

We also wouldn't need to have easymode TL+Focus 4 dice gunner hyper offense if Soontir wasn't in the game. Maybe 3 attack dice and a focus would be enough. I'm seriously considering running Feedback on my Brobots because I don't think gunner FCS HLC is enough against Soontir, one crucial coinflip goes my opponent's way and I've lost the entire game.

Your mistake is thinking that you should be awarded for flying ONCE good with a dead Interceptor, which is while possible indeed not that likely. You do not kill Poe with flying good once either. As long as you create multiple chances Fel will die eventually. especially after you have removed the stealth device. Once the SD is gone Fel becomes a mortal being again, there are plenty of tools available to get this one hit.