Based on initiative seems dumb.

It's been good enough for elimination rounds for the past couple years. What's good for the geese is good for the gander.

Now instead of incentivizing people to play the best possible list and the ships they want to play you've encouraged everyone to play a game of bid war?

I've been playing X-wing for two and a half years now. I must have played something like 250 games, and watched (in whole or in part) at least that number again. Do you know how many draws I've seen in that time?

5.

So if someone wants to bid 15 points for initiative so he wins if we get that 1% scenario, I say he's welcome to it. 99% of the time I'll be thanking him for a free win afterwards instead.

I've been playing X-wing for two and a half years now. I must have played something like 250 games, and watched (in whole or in part) at least that number again. Do you know how many draws I've seen in that time?

5.

So if someone wants to bid 15 points for initiative so he wins if we get that 1% scenario, I say he's welcome to it. 99% of the time I'll be thanking him for a free win afterwards instead.

I appreciate your anecdotal evidence and everything but... I don't think anyone disputes draws are an unlikely natural event in this game, but they are possible. My point is if you give the win in a draw scenario to the initiative holder you *could* create an even more untenable situation than exists when people are allowed to ID in the last round to secure a spot. You've potentially created a scenario where the best possible strategy is to play 94 (or some other arbitrarily low number of points) and fly in such a defensive fashion so as to mitigate losses. Basically if you engage me over here in this corner I will statistically win (obviously dice variance plays a role) if you do not chose to engage me here I will win based on initiative. Now I grant it is an unlikely scenario but, as you are someone who appreciates anecdotal evidence, I've played swiss style tournaments for the better part of 20 years and have seen the whole top 8 in the last round be able to ID and all make it in and all of them chose to do so less than 10% of the time. All things considered I'll take the ID's as the lesser of two evils.

Obviously that's neither here nor there so I was suggesting a net points scoring system to alleviate this potentially silly initiative bid situation before it begins. The elimination rounds would invariably be played to determine a winner under no time limit. In this way you never have to play Price is Right to win a game of X-Wing.

I've been playing X-wing for two and a half years now. I must have played something like 250 games, and watched (in whole or in part) at least that number again. Do you know how many draws I've seen in that time?

5.

So if someone wants to bid 15 points for initiative so he wins if we get that 1% scenario, I say he's welcome to it. 99% of the time I'll be thanking him for a free win afterwards instead.

I appreciate your anecdotal evidence and everything but... I don't think anyone disputes draws are an unlikely natural event in this game, but they are possible. My point is if you give the win in a draw scenario to the initiative holder you *could* create an even more untenable situation than exists when people are allowed to ID in the last round to secure a spot. You've potentially created a scenario where the best possible strategy is to play 94 (or some other arbitrarily low number of points) and fly in such a defensive fashion so as to mitigate losses. Basically if you engage me over here in this corner I will statistically win (obviously dice variance plays a role) if you do not chose to engage me here I will win based on initiative. Now I grant it is an unlikely scenario but, as you are someone who appreciates anecdotal evidence, I've played swiss style tournaments for the better part of 20 years and have seen the whole top 8 in the last round be able to ID and all make it in and all of them chose to do so less than 10% of the time. All things considered I'll take the ID's as the lesser of two evils.

Obviously that's neither here nor there so I was suggesting a net points scoring system to alleviate this potentially silly initiative bid situation before it begins. The elimination rounds would invariably be played to determine a winner under no time limit. In this way you never have to play Price is Right to win a game of X-Wing.

500 games is not an anecdote, and "take initiative and fortress in a corner" is not a winning strategy in X-wing.

At least we don't have problems like these.

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

How often do you think that will be a viable strategy?

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

How often do you think that will be a viable strategy?

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

How often do you think that will be a viable strategy?

One solution I've seen is to say Initiative wins draws unless they're 0-0 draws.

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

How often do you think that will be a viable strategy?

Were you not around during the pre-nerf Phantom era? 86 point Whisper/Echo lists were regularly making it to the finals of many tournaments, it was a legitimate list because of how absurdly powerful the Phantom was back then and how game-deciding initiative was against Fat Han lists.

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

How often do you think that will be a viable strategy?

Were you not around during the pre-nerf Phantom era? 86 point Whisper/Echo lists were regularly making it to the finals of many tournaments, it was a legitimate list because of how absurdly powerful the Phantom was back then and how game-deciding initiative was against Fat Han lists.

Those Phantoms still won the game by killing the enemy. They did not just run around for 60-75 minutes. No list ever has, or ever will, because there's only so much space on the table and you can't dodge a 100 point enemy list forever.

If draws no longer happen and initiative determines the winner. Could we see people flying Whisper/Fel around 75-80 points? They don't even need to engage their opponent. They could just fly around and run. Boring? Yes. But you are in no obligation to attack.

How often do you think that will be a viable strategy?

Were you not around during the pre-nerf Phantom era? 86 point Whisper/Echo lists were regularly making it to the finals of many tournaments, it was a legitimate list because of how absurdly powerful the Phantom was back then and how game-deciding initiative was against Fat Han lists.

Are we currently in the 'pre-nerf Phantom' era or 'post-nerf Phantom' era?

Again, how viable is it to field ~85 squadron points with the intention to run away from the opponent and win by Initiative?

Do you really think that's going to happen?

Especially given that, if FFG do use initiative to determine a winner, it means that the player with initiative will win in the event of a draw. So this theoretical list with Soontir and Whisper running around for 75 minutes is going to have to do that while moving before any opposing Soontir, Whisper, Vader, Poe, Jake, Han, Dengar, etc, etc, etc.

Not gonna happen.

I guess I just don't see why I should take a list with two Imperial aces, take initiative, and hope I can survive for 75 minutes without losing a ship when I could instead take two Imperial aces and a shuttle with Palpatine, engage my opponent, and have a good chance of actually winning.

I guess I just don't see why I should take a list with two Imperial aces, take initiative, and hope I can survive for 75 minutes without losing a ship when I could instead take two Imperial aces and a shuttle with Palpatine, engage my opponent, and have a good chance of actually winning.

Yeah why even show up if you're not there to play.

Endlessly dancing away is completely against the spirit of the game.

I guess I just don't see why I should take a list with two Imperial aces, take initiative, and hope I can survive for 75 minutes without losing a ship when I could instead take two Imperial aces and a shuttle with Palpatine, engage my opponent, and have a good chance of actually winning.

Yeah why even show up if you're not there to play.

Endlessly dancing away is completely against the spirit of the game.

The spirit of a competitive tourney is to win. If running every match is a viable way to win. You can't fault someone for doing that.

I guess I just don't see why I should take a list with two Imperial aces, take initiative, and hope I can survive for 75 minutes without losing a ship when I could instead take two Imperial aces and a shuttle with Palpatine, engage my opponent, and have a good chance of actually winning.

Yeah why even show up if you're not there to play.

Endlessly dancing away is completely against the spirit of the game.

The spirit of a competitive tourney is to win. If running every match is a viable way to win. You can't fault someone for doing that.

Yeah you can. Doesn't mean they have to put any stock in it.

The way I see it, the very essence of tournament play is to win while respecting the rules. If the rules make not playing a winning strategy, then the rules, not the players are at fault.

There are occasional Magic decks that are pretty fair analogies for simply running away. When the cards/format align to make it playable some people do play it.

But there's going to be plenty of squads you play against where they simply won't work, I don't think it's a viable strategy for trying to actually win anything.

I honestly don't think just running away (unless both people are trying to) would be a winning strategy. Evently you'll get tagged and every imperial play will tell you green dice will fail you when you really need them.

I guess I just don't see why I should take a list with two Imperial aces, take initiative, and hope I can survive for 75 minutes without losing a ship when I could instead take two Imperial aces and a shuttle with Palpatine, engage my opponent, and have a good chance of actually winning.

Yeah why even show up if you're not there to play.

Endlessly dancing away is completely against the spirit of the game.

The spirit of a competitive tourney is to win. If running every match is a viable way to win. You can't fault someone for doing that.

Possibly.

But I'd argue that X-Wing is an abstract simulation of dogfighting in the Star Wars universe,

and that the spirit of the *game* is to blow things up. If tournaments are formatted in such a way that someone can underbuild by a point or two, and play their games where they dickdance for 75 minutes and don't blow anything up, then the tournament formatting is screwed up.

I really hope that ties don't end up being decided by initiative.

Kevin

The way I see it, the very essence of tournament play is to win while respecting the rules. If the rules make not playing a winning strategy, then the rules, not the players are at fault.

That's absolutely true. In fact, it's one of the major problems with the current intentional draw rule.

I just don't see any reason to believe that running away for 75 minutes will be a consistent winning strategy.

The spirit of a competitive tourney is to win. If running every match is a viable way to win. You can't fault someone for doing that.

...If tournaments are formatted in such a way that someone can underbuild by a point or two, and play their games where they dickdance for 75 minutes and don't blow anything up, then the tournament formatting is screwed up.

I really hope that ties don't end up being decided by initiative.

But as noted upthread, the most common use of underbuilding for initiative is to give it away, and by doing so take advantage of the informational advantage of deploying and moving after your opponent places his or her ships at the same PS. Most lists that might be able to accomplish the feat of running for 75 minutes will be at a serious disadvantage if they take initiative.

Whisper is the only ace who benefits so much from shooting first that she's willing to give up moving second, and that's due to an upgrade (Advanced Cloaking Device) that doesn't make any sense if your goal for the game is to avoid engagement. In fact, if Whisper doesn't have ACD or isn't attacking, she doesn't have particularly notable repositioning or mobility.

The way I see it, the very essence of tournament play is to win while respecting the rules. If the rules make not playing a winning strategy, then the rules, not the players are at fault.

Bingo! Common sense!

If imitative is used to determine ties. I guarantee you that we'll see countless matches where someone runs for the last twenty minutes to set up that draw.

Whisper/Fel can run for a while and force their opponent to split up their ships. Meaning if they actually have to have combat it's on the Whisper/Fel players terms and to their advantage.

Whisper/Fel can run for a while and force their opponent to split up their ships. Meaning if they actually have to have combat it's on the Whisper/Fel players terms and to their advantage.

You still haven't addressed the fact that Whisper isn't actually very maneuverable if she's not attacking. And you still haven't addressed the fact that Fel is at a huge disadvantage against enemy PS9 aces if he has initiative.

But okay, let's set all that aside. It's the case right now that Whisper/Fel could run for a while and force an opponent to engage at a disadvantage--but we don't see that list or that strategy. Do you see how far you're moving the goalposts when you change your point from "Whisper/Fel could run for 75 minutes" to "well, Whisper/Fel could run for a while and use that to get an advantage"?