Also, if paul heaver was just saying be was opposed to intentional draws being a thing nust due to public opinion, he probably wouldnt have taken one...

Yeah, I've been consistent in my views since well before the Roanoke Incident: I don't like draws, but I will use IDs if it secures me and my opponent a spot in the cut. I will continue to do so until they remove the rule in August.

It is wrong and unfair, but if it gets me to the round...

Or, you just just play and win.

So now obeying both the letter and the spirit (as explained in the ID article) of the rules set forth by FFG is 'wrong and unfair'?

Just because it is a rule doesn't make it fair. Do you need examples, or can you think of one on your own?

Besides, I was pointing out the fact that people are happy to stand against this rule but even happier to take advantage of it until it is removed from the game.

So, just to be clear, your entire argument is based on someone not putting themselves in the best possible position to win.... in a tournament.... a REGIONAL no less... using LEGAL rules... just because they don't personally agree with the rules?

WELL, you can go ahead and do that. We got the rule to change through our protests. But for now, it is the rule and you would be a fool to not use it if it ensures your win.

Wanting to play your games, even if losing means you miss a cut does not make one a fool. It means that individual has a different reason for entering the tournament or a different idea on what it means to compete than you.

If this was in reference to a normal seasonal kit tournament, I would be right there with you.

The problem is, it isn't.

This happened at a regional qualifier for a national event, and that is what I am referencing. This is no longer simply about going out playing casual x-wing. That is what my Tuesday nights are for (cardboard gaming in Odenton MD!) and most other tournaments I go to. These events are for individuals to prove that they are the best X-Wing players in the region, country, world, or universe. These events should not be for the feint of heart or be entered into lightly. You enter these to WIN. You cannot expect players to not use every tool at their disposal. Sorry, but there really are no ifs ands or buts about this.

Also, using fool was probably a bit harsh. But I really was targeting Rapture with that one. His patronizing and self righteous posts I am finding more and more tiresome. Seriously, just read the post above mine...

Based on that travesty of reading comprehension, I wouldn't be surprised if you missed something. However, read the conversation that you are inserting yourself into and you should pick up that LordBlades presented the idea that all official rules are fair and I provided him with an example that I believe most people, including, LordBlades, cannot say is fair.

You have just presented the same idea that all rules in print are fair. I think that is a stupid thing to say. So, I will give you your own example:

***THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL***

FFG just released a new set of core rules for X-Wing. Nothing changes with the exception of two items. The first is that IDs are now expressly identified as collusion. The second states that:

Immediately after the game ends, but before determining Margin of Victory, check the nationality of each player. If one player is from Canada, then the non-Canadian player adds 100 points to his/her Margin of Victory.

***THE HYPOTHETICAL IS OVER***

Answer this - is that hypothetical, if it was an official rule, fair?

Well Based on that new rule, I would say that FFG has Realised Canada's superiority on the world stage and has taken action to re-balance the game. eh?

Based on that travesty of reading comprehension, I wouldn't be surprised if you missed something. However, read the conversation that you are inserting yourself into and you should pick up that LordBlades presented the idea that all official rules are fair and I provided him with an example that I believe most people, including, LordBlades, cannot say is fair.

You have just presented the same idea that all rules in print are fair. I think that is a stupid thing to say. So, I will give you your own example:

***THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL***

FFG just released a new set of core rules for X-Wing. Nothing changes with the exception of two items. The first is that IDs are now expressly identified as collusion. The second states that:

Immediately after the game ends, but before determining Margin of Victory, check the nationality of each player. If one player is from Canada, then the non-Canadian player adds 100 points to his/her Margin of Victory.

***THE HYPOTHETICAL IS OVER***

Answer this - is that hypothetical, if it was an official rule, fair?

Well Based on that new rule, I would say that FFG has Realised Canada's superiority on the world stage and has taken action to re-balance the game. eh?

Why else do you think we're always sorry?

Based on that travesty of reading comprehension, I wouldn't be surprised if you missed something. However, read the conversation that you are inserting yourself into and you should pick up that LordBlades presented the idea that all official rules are fair and I provided him with an example that I believe most people, including, LordBlades, cannot say is fair.

You have just presented the same idea that all rules in print are fair. I think that is a stupid thing to say. So, I will give you your own example:

***THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL***

FFG just released a new set of core rules for X-Wing. Nothing changes with the exception of two items. The first is that IDs are now expressly identified as collusion. The second states that:

Immediately after the game ends, but before determining Margin of Victory, check the nationality of each player. If one player is from Canada, then the non-Canadian player adds 100 points to his/her Margin of Victory.

***THE HYPOTHETICAL IS OVER***

Answer this - is that hypothetical, if it was an official rule, fair?

Well Based on that new rule, I would say that FFG has Realised Canada's superiority on the world stage and has taken action to re-balance the game. eh?

Why else do you think we're always sorry?

Perfect response.

You know, if they need to do away with Draws because an ID is unfair then they should also do away with awarding a bye for anything except that odd number of players which may be unavoidable. If you want to make people play then MAKE THEM PLAY. If you go into a regional with a SC bye then you're being rewarded for good play previously; how is that any different from using the ID at the end of Swiss rounds to guarantee making the cut?

You know, if they need to do away with Draws because an ID is unfair then they should also do away with awarding a bye for anything except that odd number of players which may be unavoidable. If you want to make people play then MAKE THEM PLAY. If you go into a regional with a SC bye then you're being rewarded for good play previously; how is that any different from using the ID at the end of Swiss rounds to guarantee making the cut?

Winning an entire event is different from being at the top table in the last round of swiss. And a first round bye is different from ID in the last round.

Based on that travesty of reading comprehension, I wouldn't be surprised if you missed something. However, read the conversation that you are inserting yourself into and you should pick up that LordBlades presented the idea that all official rules are fair and I provided him with an example that I believe most people, including, LordBlades, cannot say is fair.

You have just presented the same idea that all rules in print are fair. I think that is a stupid thing to say. So, I will give you your own example:

***THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL***

FFG just released a new set of core rules for X-Wing. Nothing changes with the exception of two items. The first is that IDs are now expressly identified as collusion. The second states that:

Immediately after the game ends, but before determining Margin of Victory, check the nationality of each player. If one player is from Canada, then the non-Canadian player adds 100 points to his/her Margin of Victory.

***THE HYPOTHETICAL IS OVER***

Answer this - is that hypothetical, if it was an official rule, fair?

Well Based on that new rule, I would say that FFG has Realised Canada's superiority on the world stage and has taken action to re-balance the game. eh?

Why else do you think we're always sorry?

Perfect response.

And all that apologizing is really exhausting, which explains why we need so much Tim's to get through the day

Also, using fool was probably a bit harsh. But I really was targeting Rapture with that one. His patronizing and self righteous posts I am finding more and more tiresome. Seriously, just read the post above mine...

Thank god you are here to combat perceived patronization and self-righteousness with indirect insults.

Based on that travesty of reading comprehension, I wouldn't be surprised if you missed something. However, read the conversation that you are inserting yourself into and you should pick up that LordBlades presented the idea that all official rules are fair and I provided him with an example that I believe most people, including, LordBlades, cannot say is fair.

You have just presented the same idea that all rules in print are fair. I think that is a stupid thing to say. So, I will give you your own example:

***THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL***

FFG just released a new set of core rules for X-Wing. Nothing changes with the exception of two items. The first is that IDs are now expressly identified as collusion. The second states that:

Immediately after the game ends, but before determining Margin of Victory, check the nationality of each player. If one player is from Canada, then the non-Canadian player adds 100 points to his/her Margin of Victory.

***THE HYPOTHETICAL IS OVER***

Answer this - is that hypothetical, if it was an official rule, fair?

Well Based on that new rule, I would say that FFG has Realised Canada's superiority on the world stage and has taken action to re-balance the game. eh?

You did not answer the question.

Whoops Sorry, I thought you would be able to Infer from my statement that I approve of this rule and think it is fair to the world to take into account Canada's Superiority in game balance. Again My apologizes for not being more clear.

Snip

This happened at a regional qualifier for a national event, and that is what I am referencing. This is no longer simply about going out playing casual x-wing. That is what my Tuesday nights are for (cardboard gaming in Odenton MD!) and most other tournaments I go to. These events are for individuals to prove that they are the best X-Wing players in the region, country, world, or universe. These events should not be for the feint of heart or be entered into lightly. You enter these to WIN. You cannot expect players to not use every tool at their disposal. Sorry, but there really are no ifs ands or buts about this.

Also, using fool was probably a bit harsh. But I really was targeting Rapture with that one. His patronizing and self righteous posts I am finding more and more tiresome. Seriously, just read the post above mine...

I think that players are accountable not only to the rules, but to each other. Unless you think that the rules are perfect and that players are justified in taking advantage of those rules to whatever extent possible (e.g. not stopping an opponent from grouping action after moving multiple identical-PS ships and then later denying such actions, insisting that Attani Mindlink only works when your opponent's ships are "assigned" a focus token, ect.), then players have to acknowledge that certain acts, whether legal or not, are disfavorable and damaging to the game and should not occur. If you do not think that abusing the ID rule to prevent players from missing the cut is damaging to the game, then you must have missed the forums erupting and FFG agreeing that IDs have no place in X-Wing.

The idea that morals should shift as competition increases is basically admitting that what you are doing is wrong. You seem to value that tournaments exist to prove who the best player is. The fact that the determination of who the best player is could involve two opponent voluntarily choosing not to play each other in order to both advance, which prevents them from having to compete against other players, is highly suspect.

Also, using fool was probably a bit harsh. But I really was targeting Rapture with that one. His patronizing and self righteous posts I am finding more and more tiresome. Seriously, just read the post above mine...

Thank god you are here to combat perceived patronization and self-righteousness with indirect insults.

I believe that I was very direct, but you're welcome!

I am glad that you are able to completely ignore what I wrote and insert your own bias as well! This is NOTHING like the examples that you gave. This is not some item that is a RAI vs RAW debate, this is not a "I am going to let this person do all of his actions at the same time until its to my advantage to make it stop" (looking at you PGS), this is a black and white rule that people used to ensure they advanced in a tournament. Please tell me how they abused this rule again?

I am sure that in your infinite wisdom you thought about the fact that, most likely, the top 8 would have only changed by 1 maybe two people right? and that would mean that by playing the other person, please follow along here it gets complicated, you would be giving someone (with a 75% chance to make the cut with you) a chance to watch you play prior to you having TO PLAY THAT SAME PERSON AGAIN. I agree that IDs were wrong, you can go ahead and look it up if you wish. But, that does not make actually using the rule wrong.

Also, FFG agrees that DRAWS have no place in X-wing. This rule is something that MUST be in place when you have draws in a game. I can link their exact phrasing if you cannot find it yourself as you seem to have a reading comprehension/retention problem

Just in case, I have found the quote for you! I even bolded the pertinent bits.

After discussion with game developers and organizers, we have identified viable methods for the removal of draws from the tournament experience for our games which feature single-game Swiss rounds. In our games which feature two-game Swiss rounds (Android: Netrunner™ and Star Wars™: The Card Game), we are not planning any change to the intentional split policy due to the frequency of matches which result in equal tournament points awarded to both players..

see how annoying being patronized is?

Hey, this means that they can finally change the dumb rule about the Nashta Pup scoring if it's the only ship left on the table! That was purely an artifact of FFG's tournament software not being capable of assigning a win in a 100-100 game. Since they will have to deal with that now anyway...

It also solves software having issues handling the Draws due to point values.

Yay silver linings!

Yeah, silver lining... I'll get my delete key prepped.

Snip

This happened at a regional qualifier for a national event, and that is what I am referencing. This is no longer simply about going out playing casual x-wing. That is what my Tuesday nights are for (cardboard gaming in Odenton MD!) and most other tournaments I go to. These events are for individuals to prove that they are the best X-Wing players in the region, country, world, or universe. These events should not be for the feint of heart or be entered into lightly. You enter these to WIN. You cannot expect players to not use every tool at their disposal. Sorry, but there really are no ifs ands or buts about this.

Also, using fool was probably a bit harsh. But I really was targeting Rapture with that one. His patronizing and self righteous posts I am finding more and more tiresome. Seriously, just read the post above mine...

I think that players are accountable not only to the rules, but to each other. Unless you think that the rules are perfect and that players are justified in taking advantage of those rules to whatever extent possible (e.g. not stopping an opponent from grouping action after moving multiple identical-PS ships and then later denying such actions, insisting that Attani Mindlink only works when your opponent's ships are "assigned" a focus token, ect.), then players have to acknowledge that certain acts, whether legal or not, are disfavorable and damaging to the game and should not occur. If you do not think that abusing the ID rule to prevent players from missing the cut is damaging to the game, then you must have missed the forums erupting and FFG agreeing that IDs have no place in X-Wing.

The idea that morals should shift as competition increases is basically admitting that what you are doing is wrong. You seem to value that tournaments exist to prove who the best player is. The fact that the determination of who the best player is could involve two opponent voluntarily choosing not to play each other in order to both advance, which prevents them from having to compete against other players, is highly suspect.

I am glad that you are able to completely ignore what I wrote and insert your own bias as well! This is NOTHING like the examples that you gave. This is not some item that is a RAI vs RAW debate, this is not a "I am going to let this person do all of his actions at the same time until its to my advantage to make it stop", this is a black and white rule that people used to ensure they advanced in a tournament. Please tell me how they abused this rule again?

What did I ignore? I am legitimately interested if I missed something.

But RAI v. RAW is black and white. There is only one set of rules and that is the ones that are written. It is interesting to suggest that a RAI argument is legitimate while also arguing that players are bound by nothing other than the rules themselves. Or maybe you meant that some rules have to exist outside of the rules? This allows Attani Mindlink to work. Wouldn't that be a bit of a contradiction if you are also arguing that the rules exist to be abused to the fullest extend possible? Or maybe you do not see rigging the top 8 through IDs as an abuse? You tell me.

Also, I don't know where you came up with the idea that a player is prevented, based on waiver, from implying a concession regarding group actions and then arguing that an opportunity was missed is a RAW v. RAI issue. The is absolutely nothing to suggest that the developers foresaw such a situation or that the rules imply that the waiver would control. A player who does that operating completely within the rule. So, you will have to explain to me why abusing the missed opportunity rules is any different that abusing the ID rule. Go ahead.

Quoting at this point is tedious

You ignored that I made a distinction between casual and competitive

You used RAI v RAW as one of your examples which is not the case here.

Do you really not read what you type? (guess ill have to quote after all)

e.g. not stopping an opponent from grouping action after moving multiple identical-PS ships and then later denying such actions

I really am beginning to think that you have never actually competed on a high level before.

You are right, you said FFG thinks ID is a bad rule. Problem is that your statement was completely wrong. They literally have said the opposite. They said that DRAWS area bad rule for X wing but Intentional draws are good for games where draws are necessary.

I believe I already answered this. But they did not do this to exclude anyone. The different tables did this on their own and were not all telling each other to take the draw. there was no master evil plan to define the cut early.

The removal of draws in a points based game seems unreasonale. If we both have the same amount of points at the time limit who wins? Based on initiative seems dumb. Now instead of incentivizing people to play the best possible list and the ships they want to play you've encouraged everyone to play a game of bid war? I'm out.

Now, if wins and losses are removed as well I might find that interesting. Score the entire event on raw points destroyed v. points lost. Now we don't have to worry about draws and modified this and that. Every round has a positive or negative score added to your total.

I believe I already answered this. But they did not do this to exclude anyone. The different tables did this on their own and were not all telling each other to take the draw. there was no master evil plan to define the cut early.

Several people, from what I've read, heard someone say when standings were posted that if the top 8 all ID'ed, they would be the cut. While it may not be a "master evil plan," and there was very likely not verbal communications or collusion (as defined by FFG - let's not get into THAT awful semantic debate), it'd be absolutely naive to believe that it occurred to each of the 8 (or even just one player at each table) individually.

I do believe what they did was within the rules, even the sportsmanship ones, but let's be realistic about if this was actually giving everyone the sporting chance they deserved.

"They should have played better in the first round" is one of the more dismissive arguments I've seen bandied about. The tournament structure doesn't dictate that a 4-2 player that was 4-1 the round before is any better than the 3-2 player that also becomes 4-2.

Fine. No quotes. It is becoming clear that this is a stream of consciousness argument for you, anyway.

The distinction between casual and competitive is meaningless. The ID issue is only an issue at competitive events because tournaments are the only events where the vast majority of players will participate which involve round structures where players have to play if they do not want to. I did not ignore that distinction, I just thought that it didn't make sense in this context. Maybe you disagree? If you made a point about green being better than red, I would not have addressed that either.

You are right that I gave one example that is subject to an RAI vs. RAW argument. The other example is not. Is there a reason that you are not addressing the no RAI vs. RAW example, or is it just easier for you to convince yourself that you are intelligent if you skip the other side's argument that give you trouble?

Regarding you personal musing as to whether I have ever "competed on a high level," I don't see how that it relevant in any way. Do you have something substantive to say, or is that vague assertion that I have never tried to get a trophy all? Fine, lets say, to help keep whatever you are trying to cling to as an argument afloat, that I have never competed in anything (aside from this one-sided conversation) in my entire life - what does that mean to you in this context?

You are right, you said FFG thinks ID is a bad rule. Problem is that your statement was completely wrong. They literally have said the opposite. They said that DRAWS area bad rule for X wing but Intentional draws are good for games where draws are necessary.

Sorry, but I had to quote this gem. We are here on the X-Wing forum discussing X-Wings ID rule. I said that FFG thinks that IDs are a bad and your counter to that is that FFG like IDs for other games? Come on. I was under the impression that we were talking about X-Wing. If you thought otherwise, then I don't know what to tell you.

I was going to go ahead and keep this stupid argument going, instead I think its time to let it die.

Please just re-read what I wrote and what you wrote. If you really cannot understand it, or don't want to, then me saying it over and over will not help.

Sometimes, people are just too different in opinion/stubborn (could go for either of us).

Sometimes, people are just too different in opinion/stubborn (could go for either of us).

I have to give respect for this line. Not many people can admit their opinions are opinions, let alone their own stubbornness.

Sure, sometimes. Other times, people drop in spewing half-baked ideas and then refuse actually have a conversation. Anyone can say whatever they want and then only respond when it suits them - no one will argue that there is accountability on the internet. But, do not try to change your approach for the last post and act like you tried to have a reasonable discussion. You did not respond to questions and pretended that I was ignoring your non-existent points. If you want to discuss it, I am still waiting. If you want to continue just making noise, then you are free to do that, just don't expect not to be criticized.

Fantastic everybody. The whining gets results. Now all the pressure goes back onto TOs to try and police collusion. Instead of people taking IDs they'll collude.

Prime example

#5 plays #6

A draw and they're both in.

If one tables the other, then the loser is probably out. Players agree that whoever wins will win by as little as realistically possible. Unless a TO pays a bunch of attention to every match it will be hard to police.

Which is a very highly unlikely scenario. If the winner doesn't personally know the loser, why would he risk any possibility of a collusion allegation to help some rando? Just finish crushing him. You have to have two people, both paired, with just the right MOVs, who are both friendly to each other, and both willing to cheat for this to occur. Hell, if they are willing to go that far, they are probably willing to just make up a score.

On the other hand, legalized collusion in the form of an Intentional Draw would happen nearly every time it was beneficial, whether the players are friendly or not.

Yup. "Hey, let's do something that benefits us both" is a much easier conversation to have than "Could you do me a favor and not run up the score, please?"

I think it is hilariously naive that this conversation would not happen, or would at least not be considered by both parties.

Collusion allegation? You mean one person accuses the other in the final round of swiss and the person who did it fully denies it if called out? TO can't DQ on an allegation, because otherwise there would be an accusation party at the end of every tournament. So nothing happens save maybe a warning, they play it out and whatever happens happens. Worst case, the offerer loses and was no worse off than if he never said anything. Best case, his opponent accepts and both move on and no one knows any better.

Welcome to why you are better off with IDs, much as it may leave a sour taste.

Sure, is there a level of trust that has to be present? Of course, a little. But if the only thing a person has to be concerned with is whether you will report them, that is a pretty minimal amount of trust indeed.

There are some teams/groups out there that wouldn't even need to say anything out loud to know what to expect...

That all said, I think the scenario is less likely since MOV is unlikely to be enough of a guarantee in X-Wing with the removal of the Draw/point for a draw. Which is why I liked the article and felt it was a very diplomatic solution. It removes the issue for the most part, and everyone gets a warm fuzzy that collusion will never ever, ever happen. Ever. Which is, of course, extremely foolish to think, but ignorance is bliss as they say.

Youre right, people will always try to game the systems to gain an unfair advantage. Better make it legal for them to do it...

It actually is. When it is illegal, you get a subset of people who trust each other and will do it regardless of whether it is legal or not. A "Gentleman's Club" if you will. Other people who have not or are not part of that circle will not be able to take advantage of the system to the same degree, meaning they have highly erratic finishes in general, while the people in the circle consistently make cuts and largely shape the outcomes. This continues until you either get into the circle or quit.

When it is legal, everyone can openly ask people they do not know for the Draw and not have to fear any repercussions. This allows ALL players to use it to their advantage, regardless of how well they know their opponents. This diffuses the "Club" and levels the playing field.

Sometimes it makes sense to legalize things so they can be fair and monitored. When they are illegal, there is no way you can do so. Again, it may leave a sour taste, but that's the reality.

Sometimes it makes sense to legalize things so they can be fair and monitored. When they are illegal, there is no way you can do so. Again, it may leave a sour taste, but that's the reality.

Definitely true, but it depends what you have to give up. Seeing some players lose their chance at competing for 1st place based on a concession to avoid potential cheating is difficult. I would rather watch some players try to cheat and face a potential DQ.

You understand that 90% of Intentional Draws aren't affecting who makes the cut, right?

Sometimes it makes sense to legalize things so they can be fair and monitored. When they are illegal, there is no way you can do so. Again, it may leave a sour taste, but that's the reality.

Definitely true, but it depends what you have to give up. Seeing some players lose their chance at competing for 1st place based on a concession to avoid potential cheating is difficult. I would rather watch some players try to cheat and face a potential DQ.

I agree, but in this case it is extremely difficult to prove that they are cheating since it ends up being one player's word against anothers, which is why I have the stance I do.

Agreed. They should require a dance-off instead.

When ID wasn't legal in Magic people who knew each other, and had played a long time did it all the time without being caught. Now that its legal people can explain to the new kid how it works so the new playes get the same benefit the vets will get anyway.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.