So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

Well, for example if a btl equipped y wing destroys a target with the same PS with the second attack that ship does not get to attack, as the y wing was only technically active for the first attack. The second attack basically happens in this weird time between the end of the y wings activation and the next ship activating.

But that's not true. Attack. Trigger after attack abilities (btla4 attack). Resolve and trigger any further after attack abilities. Resolve those and then end activation. Rolling the dice doesn't somehow end your activation before all the after attack triggers resolve.

VanderLegion is correct. The FAQ basically states you cannot measure range or arc for attacks outside being the active ship.

Measuring Range
Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine
whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:
• When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active
player can measure range from the active ship to any enemy ships before
declaring one as its target.
• When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships)
to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure
range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.
• After declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player
may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

See my earlier examples of why not being the active ship when performing extra attacks is a terrible idea.

Performing an action when you aren't the active ship int he activation phase is entirely differnet from performing an attack int he combat phsae. Performing an attack is the entire point of activating in the combat phase. It's literrally what activating lets you do. Performing an action is just 1 step of the activation phase.

The Vader, Soontir, Dengar, Gunner thing? I don't see why that's an issue. Vader would get to attack before being removed because the active ship (Soontir) shares his PS.

Soontir isn't active anymore. You activate and get to attack. Who says you're still active after the attack is resolved and dengar is using his ability?

You are still resolving abilities triggered by Soontir's attack. He should remain active until all effects triggered by his attack have been resolved.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ:

Measuring Range Players may only measure range and/or use the range ruler to determine whether a ship is inside or outside of a firing arc at the following times:

• When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active player can measure range from the active ship to any enemy ships before declaring one as its target.

• When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.

• After declaring the intended target of a target lock action, the active player may measure range to the intended target, and only to the intended target.

Speciifcally says you can only measure range if you're the active ship.

so, no ship is active when Dengar's "After an attack" ability?

Does this mean no ship is active during Gunner, TLT, BTL-A4, TIE/D, R5-P8, etc attacks, meaning if such an attack kills a same-PS ship, that ship does not get simultaneous fire?

Well r5-p8 by definition can't kill someone who hasn't attacked yet since they have to attack you to trigger him.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

I think that the FAQ is outdated and probably was consistent with the old attack procedure. Even if you take the FAQ as valid and overriding specific rules that contradict it, the extra attacks stem from an ability that requires a range to be measured which is permitted by the FAQ.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

I guess it could be seen that way.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

It doesn't though. A ship's ability that requires a specific range is something like carnor jax (enemies at range 1), 4lom (a ship at range 1), etc. The phantom title doesn't say "you can perform a turret attack against an enemy ship at range 1-3" or anything that specifies a range in the ability.

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

Well, for example if a btl equipped y wing destroys a target with the same PS with the second attack that ship does not get to attack, as the y wing was only technically active for the first attack. The second attack basically happens in this weird time between the end of the y wings activation and the next ship activating.

But that's not true. Attack. Trigger after attack abilities (btla4 attack). Resolve and trigger any further after attack abilities. Resolve those and then end activation. Rolling the dice doesn't somehow end your activation before all the after attack triggers resolve.

Where are getting the trigger after attack abilities part from? The only card abilities that are part of the attack activation sequence involve those modifying the dice for that attack.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

It doesn't though. A ship's ability that requires a specific range is something like carnor jax (enemies at range 1), 4lom (a ship at range 1), etc. The phantom title doesn't say "you can perform a turret attack against an enemy ship at range 1-3" or anything that specifies a range in the ability.

1. Do the extra attacks come from an ability?

2. Does resolving the effect require making a measurement?

The answer to both of those questions is "Yes".

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

It doesn't though. A ship's ability that requires a specific range is something like carnor jax (enemies at range 1), 4lom (a ship at range 1), etc. The phantom title doesn't say "you can perform a turret attack against an enemy ship at range 1-3" or anything that specifies a range in the ability.

1. Do the extra attacks come from an ability?

2. Does resolving the effect require making a measurement?

The answer to both of those questions is "Yes".

When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.

Getting an attack doesn't have a range requirement to check before resolving the ability. measuring range is PART of the attack, not before.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

It doesn't though. A ship's ability that requires a specific range is something like carnor jax (enemies at range 1), 4lom (a ship at range 1), etc. The phantom title doesn't say "you can perform a turret attack against an enemy ship at range 1-3" or anything that specifies a range in the ability.

1. Do the extra attacks come from an ability?

2. Does resolving the effect require making a measurement?

The answer to both of those questions is "Yes".

When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.

Getting an attack doesn't have a range requirement to check before resolving the ability. measuring range is PART of the attack, not before.

Can we agree that it is obvious that those abilities should work and that there is a conflict between the rules and the FAQ that need to be cleared up?

I've submitted a rules question to FFG about this to make them aware of the conflict.

Agreed. FAQ needs to be reworded.

Are there any other cards that reference "Active Ship" or "Activate"? Zeb is certainly the only one I can recall that references "active" during the combat phase.

My guess is that the card was worded to allow Chopper's pilot ability to work as well as to specifically disallow what happened to the Inquisitor in the regional match referenced.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure

range to any number of enemy ships and check

which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then

the attacker chooses one of his weapons to

attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to

be the target and pays any costs required for the

attack.

The FAQ on page 4 overrides that.

It really doesn't. If your ability that you trigger says 'perform an attack' that falls very easily under 'an ability that requires a range' which is bullet point 2. The ability of performing an attack by default requires a ship at range of whatever the legal attack ranges are for your weapon.

It doesn't though. A ship's ability that requires a specific range is something like carnor jax (enemies at range 1), 4lom (a ship at range 1), etc. The phantom title doesn't say "you can perform a turret attack against an enemy ship at range 1-3" or anything that specifies a range in the ability.

1. Do the extra attacks come from an ability?

2. Does resolving the effect require making a measurement?

The answer to both of those questions is "Yes".

When a player declares a ship’s ability that requires another ship (or ships) to be at a certain range, the player trying to resolve the ability can measure range from their ship to any valid ships before resolving the ability.

Getting an attack doesn't have a range requirement to check before resolving the ability. measuring range is PART of the attack, not before.

Can we agree that it is obvious that those abilities should work and that there is a conflict between the rules and the FAQ that need to be cleared up?

I've submitted a rules question to FFG about this to make them aware of the conflict.

I agree that you SHOULD be able to attack. Personally, I still think though that it's not a conflict between the rules and FAQ. I think it's a conflict with Frank's ruling, and think that if a ship is attacking, it should be considered the "active" ship and then there's no conflict.

Is it just me, or are there toooooooo many arguments from Rules Lawyers in this post? Also all of this back & forth doesn't change the rules until it is officially in the FAQ. Yes, this could sway a judge's ruling, but the judge's ruling is still final until this is FAQ'ed.

How anyone is trying to "lawyer" in a kill within a PS window because of an "interrupt" ability, I don't know, but if I shot one of my PS X ships at Dengar, he returned fire, missed, used Gunner to kill a different PS X ship, I would be getting my simultaneous fire with the killed ship...it is still in the same PS window.

Is it just me, or are there toooooooo many arguments from Rules Lawyers in this post? Also all of this back & forth doesn't change the rules until it is officially in the FAQ. Yes, this could sway a judge's ruling, but the judge's ruling is still final until this is FAQ'ed.

How anyone is trying to "lawyer" in a kill within a PS window because of an "interrupt" ability, I don't know, but if I shot one of my PS X ships at Dengar, he returned fire, missed, used Gunner to kill a different PS X ship, I would be getting my simultaneous fire with the killed ship...it is still in the same PS window.

I think of this as a good place to get these arguments out. If I argued like this in the middle of a tournament or a game it would be rules lawyering, but this is an attempt to read and interpret the rules carefully. This is both an attempt to figure out how things work until we get another FAQ, and it is practice interpreting complicated effects for when new ones arrive. It can seem a bit like an argument, but it is much better to do that now compared to raising my voice at a misunderstanding at my FLGS.

I agree that the intent should be that these effects happen during a "PS window" but that may not be how the rules are actually written, so this prepares TOs to make a ruling and players who don't know what a TO will rule. It also probably lets FFG know that this is unclear as worded.

This is probably why it's worded the way it is and not "When you and ships you are touching in your firing arc are attacking, "

Yeah, I still find it odd just because the definition of an active ship is "the ship that is currently resolving the activation or combat phase". I took that to mean essentially attacking = active. So a y wings second attack was just a continuation of its activation. That's not the case however, apparently.

Yeah, I still find it odd just because the definition of an active ship is "the ship that is currently resolving the activation or combat phase". I took that to mean essentially attacking = active. So a y wings second attack was just a continuation of its activation. That's not the case however, apparently.

To me, I treated it a bit like "the stack" in Magic the Gathering (I'm not even sure that is the rules there anymore). The y-wings first attack happens, then it triggers a bunch of stuff, which all get resolved. When the attack itself and everything that was caused by the trigger is done, the activation is officially over and it is on to the next one. So, a Y-wings second shot is directly triggered by upgrades off the first attack and still is a "sub step" of getting it finally resolved.

That means Dengar using gunner to shoot Vader is triggered by missing the payback shot on Soontir, which was triggered by Soontir shooting at Dengar, so it all counts as little sub-steps of Soontir's attack activation.

I don't know that this is the rules as written or intended, but so far it is consistent with the rulings that I have read.

hey on the bright side (for the ghost), dengar and corran's abilities cannot shoot back at you when they are touching a Zeb crew.

hey on the bright side (for the ghost), dengar and corran's abilities cannot shoot back at you when they are touching a Zeb crew.

Corran can't shoot back with his double tap regardless of any other rulings on whether a ship is active. Zeb specifies during the combat phase, and corran double taps in the end phase.

hey on the bright side (for the ghost), dengar and corran's abilities cannot shoot back at you when they are touching a Zeb crew.

nothing bright about that

I'd trade double-taps with either of those two buggers any day, especially corran

This ruling seems like a nail in the coffin for Zeb crew. He has too many drawbacks (opponent gets to shoot back, opponent gets to treat rear arc as a firing arc even you don't have torps/turret, can't use to double-tap). Hera was already amazing for 1 point, and now Zeb provides even less competition for that slot.

This has been, officially, the best debate I have ever read over rules that are explicitly laid out, and very clear.