The final step of the combat phase for an active ship is dealing damage to the target. Once the attack is over, there's no evidence you're still active for dengar's ability. I would argue if dengar isn't active, no one is. If the ghost isn't active at the end of the phase when attacking with his turret, there's already precedent for there being no active ship at a given time (which I think is dumb, but if that's the argument).

I see what you mean, but Dengar's ability specifically says you can shoot the attacking ship. Gunner lets you change that target if you miss, but that attacking ship isn't the attacking ship if it's activation has ended.

Wait.

"Once per round after defending, if the attacker is inside your firing arc, you may perform an attack against that ship."

There is a dependent clause there (or something, I'm not an English teacher) but the phrase "the attacker is" is present tense which is what I am basing my argument on. There is the argument that they should have written it "the ship that had attacked is" but that takes more room. Guess it will take a FAQ after all.

This is why my earlier post that ubul was responding to specified dengar with gunner killing someone that hasnt' fired yet. You miss the first shot, gunner someone of the same PS that hasnt' fired yet to kil them.

The only place I see mention Activating is during Activation Phase.

It's on page 9 of the rules reference as someone posted earlier in this thread:

COMBAT PHASE

During the Combat phase, each ship has an opportunity to perform one attack, starting with the ship with the highest pilot skill and continuing in descending order.

• If a player has multiple ships with the same pilot skill value, he can attack with them in any order.

• If both players have ships with the same pilot skill value, the player with initiative attacks with all of his ships of that pilot skill first.

• Each ship becomes the active ship only once during this phase.

• A ship may choose not to attack.

Related Topics: Active Ship, Attack, Initiative, Pilot Skill, Round CRITICAL DAMAGE During an attack, a ship suffers one critical

Zeb's ability itself doesn't require a ship to be at a certain range. It's not like 4LOM crew that states "a ship at range 1".

That is true, but performing an attack does.

But that's not zeb's ability requiring the range, which is what your quote specifies.

Zeb's ability itself doesn't require a ship to be at a certain range. It's not like 4LOM crew that states "a ship at range 1".

That is true, but performing an attack does.

But that's not zeb's ability requiring the range, which is what your quote specifies.

Sorry if I was not clear enough, but I was responding to that statment:

Going by that, if you aren't active, you can't measure range for the ghost's turret shot or dengar's revenge shot.

Zeb's ability itself doesn't require a ship to be at a certain range. It's not like 4LOM crew that states "a ship at range 1".

That is true, but performing an attack does.

But that's not zeb's ability requiring the range, which is what your quote specifies.

Sorry if I was not clear enough, but I was responding to that statment:

Going by that, if you aren't active, you can't measure range for the ghost's turret shot or dengar's revenge shot.

Still don't see how it applies? It's not a ships ability requiring a specific range. It's just letting you attack. And measuring range only says you can measure range for attacking while you're the active ship.

Zeb's ability itself doesn't require a ship to be at a certain range. It's not like 4LOM crew that states "a ship at range 1".

That is true, but performing an attack does.

But that's not zeb's ability requiring the range, which is what your quote specifies.

Sorry if I was not clear enough, but I was responding to that statment:

Going by that, if you aren't active, you can't measure range for the ghost's turret shot or dengar's revenge shot.

Still don't see how it applies? It's not a ships ability requiring a specific range. It's just letting you attack. And measuring range only says you can measure range for attacking while you're the active ship.

This is why my earlier post that ubul was responding to specified dengar with gunner killing someone that hasnt' fired yet. You miss the first shot, gunner someone of the same PS that hasnt' fired yet to kil them.

Yeah, this is a mess. If the ship that shot Dengar is no longer active, they need to define a "No one is active but it is neutrally in the PS9 phase" phase to deal with these issues. I still think that you can't Dengar-return-fire-gunner-to-kill-PS9-Vader-before-he-shoots from a Soontir shot, because you are after a PS9 shot and before a PS9 shot. You could potentially Dengar-return-fire-gunner-to-kill-PS3-Contracted Scout-before-it-can-fire off a PS3 Ruthless Freelancer's shot (if we are reading this right) because it doesn't have a PS3 "Active Ship" to get simultaneous fire.

Edit: Oh wait, re-reading that, maybe he could snuff Vader? If there is no active ship at all, there can't be a simultaneous fire trigger.

From the rules reference

ATTACK
A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:
1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

Any time you perform an attack you follow the steps including step 1.

This is why my earlier post that ubul was responding to specified dengar with gunner killing someone that hasnt' fired yet. You miss the first shot, gunner someone of the same PS that hasnt' fired yet to kil them.

Yeah, this is a mess. If the ship that shot Dengar is no longer active, they need to define a "No one is active but it is neutrally in the PS9 phase" phase to deal with these issues. I still think that you can't Dengar-return-fire-gunner-to-kill-PS9-Vader-before-he-shoots from a Soontir shot, because you are after a PS9 shot and before a PS9 shot. You could potentially Dengar-return-fire-gunner-to-kill-PS3-Contracted Scout-before-it-can-fire off a PS3 Ruthless Freelancer's shot (if we are reading this right) because it is not a PS3 "Active Ship" to get simultaneous fire.

Oh I totally agree that you "shouldn't" be able to gunner vader to death and prevent him from getting a shot. But going by the arguments for dengar not being the 'active' ship for his revenge shot, that's exactly what would happen since simultaneous fire specifies the active ships PS. If there's no active ship, sucks for vader.

From the rules reference

ATTACK

A ship can perform one attack when it becomes the active ship during the Combat phase. To perform an attack, the ship resolves the following steps in order:

1. Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

Any time you perform an attack you follow the steps including step 1.

Yes you do, but the FAQ (which overrides or clarifies the rules reference) says you can only measure range in specific circumstances, none of which include performing an attack if you aren't the 'active' ship.

I just want to note: I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be able to measure range. I'm arguing that saying dengar or the ghost's extra attack not being 'active' ships at the time is a terrible ruling based on instances I mentioned (such as this one).

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

The only place I see mention Activating is during Activation Phase.

It's on page 9 of the rules reference as someone posted earlier in this thread:

COMBAT PHASE

During the Combat phase, each ship has an opportunity to perform one attack, starting with the ship with the highest pilot skill and continuing in descending order.

• If a player has multiple ships with the same pilot skill value, he can attack with them in any order.

• If both players have ships with the same pilot skill value, the player with initiative attacks with all of his ships of that pilot skill first.

• Each ship becomes the active ship only once during this phase.

• A ship may choose not to attack.

Related Topics: Active Ship, Attack, Initiative, Pilot Skill, Round CRITICAL DAMAGE During an attack, a ship suffers one critical

Doh!

I think I'm finally starting to wake up. I was under the impression that Active != Activate but it would appear that the definition of Activate is to make active(English isn't my first language and believe it or not this is the first time I looked up Activate in the dictionary.)

This makes Zeb crew a waste on an ABT VCX.

My apologies for the confusion on my part.

zeb's fine on an ABT VCX; **** near auto-include imo (unless you're building more for FCS primary with ABT thrown on as insurance, and less for boost + block)

it's a waste on ABT Ghost/Phantom, if you're facing anything that can boost + roll

now ships that can just roll you can catch a bit more easily even without bumps

Zeb's ability itself doesn't require a ship to be at a certain range. It's not like 4LOM crew that states "a ship at range 1".

That is true, but performing an attack does.

But that's not zeb's ability requiring the range, which is what your quote specifies.

Sorry if I was not clear enough, but I was responding to that statment:

Going by that, if you aren't active, you can't measure range for the ghost's turret shot or dengar's revenge shot.

Still don't see how it applies? It's not a ships ability requiring a specific range. It's just letting you attack. And measuring range only says you can measure range for attacking while you're the active ship.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

It's okay. Zeb is terrible.

Allowing enemies to attack your Ghost =/= profit.

The only place I see mention Activating is during Activation Phase.

It's on page 9 of the rules reference as someone posted earlier in this thread:

COMBAT PHASE

During the Combat phase, each ship has an opportunity to perform one attack, starting with the ship with the highest pilot skill and continuing in descending order.

• If a player has multiple ships with the same pilot skill value, he can attack with them in any order.

• If both players have ships with the same pilot skill value, the player with initiative attacks with all of his ships of that pilot skill first.

• Each ship becomes the active ship only once during this phase.

• A ship may choose not to attack.

Related Topics: Active Ship, Attack, Initiative, Pilot Skill, Round CRITICAL DAMAGE During an attack, a ship suffers one critical

Doh!

I think I'm finally starting to wake up. I was under the impression that Active != Activate but it would appear that the definition of Activate is to make active(English isn't my first language and believe it or not this is the first time I looked up Activate in the dictionary.)

This makes Zeb crew a waste on an ABT VCX.

My apologies for the confusion on my part.

I don't know that I'd go that far. He still allows you to make a single attack against a ship that's in arc that you are touching.

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

See my earlier examples of why not being the active ship when performing extra attacks is a terrible idea.

Performing an action when you aren't the active ship int he activation phase is entirely differnet from performing an attack int he combat phsae. Performing an attack is the entire point of activating in the combat phase. It's literrally what activating lets you do. Performing an action is just 1 step of the activation phase.

The only place I see mention Activating is during Activation Phase.

It's on page 9 of the rules reference as someone posted earlier in this thread:

COMBAT PHASE

During the Combat phase, each ship has an opportunity to perform one attack, starting with the ship with the highest pilot skill and continuing in descending order.

• If a player has multiple ships with the same pilot skill value, he can attack with them in any order.

• If both players have ships with the same pilot skill value, the player with initiative attacks with all of his ships of that pilot skill first.

• Each ship becomes the active ship only once during this phase.

• A ship may choose not to attack.

Related Topics: Active Ship, Attack, Initiative, Pilot Skill, Round CRITICAL DAMAGE During an attack, a ship suffers one critical

Doh!

I think I'm finally starting to wake up. I was under the impression that Active != Activate but it would appear that the definition of Activate is to make active(English isn't my first language and believe it or not this is the first time I looked up Activate in the dictionary.)

This makes Zeb crew a waste on an ABT VCX.

My apologies for the confusion on my part.

I don't know that I'd go that far. He still allows you to make a single attack against a ship that's in arc that you are touching.

Yes but they get to attack you back as well especially if they bump you which will happen most of the time due to PS especially against ships you want to trigger it against.

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

It's okay. Zeb is terrible.

Allowing enemies to attack your Ghost =/= profit.

not really how it works

this is how it works:

modified ghost > whatever crappy offense a blocked enemy can muster

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

Well, for example if a btl equipped y wing destroys a target with the same PS with the second attack that ship does not get to attack, as the y wing was only technically active for the first attack. The second attack basically happens in this weird time between the end of the y wings activation and the next ship activating.

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

See my earlier examples of why not being the active ship when performing extra attacks is a terrible idea.

Performing an action when you aren't the active ship int he activation phase is entirely differnet from performing an attack int he combat phsae. Performing an attack is the entire point of activating in the combat phase. It's literrally what activating lets you do. Performing an action is just 1 step of the activation phase.

The Vader, Soontir, Dengar, Gunner thing? I don't see why that's an issue. Vader would get to attack before being removed because the active ship (Soontir) shares his PS.

So basically the email is stating that attacking does not equal being active in the combat phase? That seems....odd.

Why? The rules state that a ship can only be the active ship once in the combat phase. There's nothing on any upgrade that allows shooting outside of the normal activation that states that the ship becomes active or that the upgrade the ship to become active more than once per phase.

Being able to perform an action in the activation phase ( via Squad Leader, Lando, etc. ) doesn't make the ship performing the action the active ship, why would attacking be any different?

See my earlier examples of why not being the active ship when performing extra attacks is a terrible idea.

Performing an action when you aren't the active ship int he activation phase is entirely differnet from performing an attack int he combat phsae. Performing an attack is the entire point of activating in the combat phase. It's literrally what activating lets you do. Performing an action is just 1 step of the activation phase.

The Vader, Soontir, Dengar, Gunner thing? I don't see why that's an issue. Vader would get to attack before being removed because the active ship (Soontir) shares his PS.

Soontir isn't active anymore. You activate and get to attack. Who says you're still active after the attack is resolved and dengar is using his ability?

I think you are overthinking and you overcomplicatie simple rules. Performing the attack is part of the ship' ability. And measuring range is part of performing an attack.

You're still ignoring the fact that the FAQ says you can only measure range if you're the active ship int he combat phase. The limits on when you can measure range according to the FAQ never says it's ok if you're attacking but not active. If it said "when attacking" or "when attacking int he combat phase" or something, it'd be fine.

Where are you getting that? The rules reference specifically states that you are able to measure range during the Declare Target step of an attack.

Rules Reference page 4:

so, no ship is active when Dengar's "After an attack" ability?

Does this mean no ship is active during Gunner, TLT, BTL-A4, TIE/D, R5-P8, etc attacks, meaning if such an attack kills a same-PS ship, that ship does not get simultaneous fire?