As our store's local squadron commander, i have to agree with what everyone above has said about the combos and using ships to activate squadrons as well. Other points i'll add on:

What are you combining your squadrons with? Are you using B wings with an escort that's outstripping them? I generally spend some squadron points on making sure the bombers have an escort to keep them alive and not grabbed. The speed 2 of the B wings also needs to be overcome, so you need a way to jump them in (Independence maybe?)

You say you dont have R+V. Get it. Get it now, Scurrgs are crazy legit, Nym (with Adar Tallon and the Yavaris) is a war criminal, and Jan Ors is so incredibly amazing that she warps metas. She and 2 x wings can easily take out a similar costed amount of squadrons any day of the week. So good, so helpful. Intel allows an actual squadrons game to happen and lets your bombers go shoot other ships, which is exactly where they want to be, instead of getting bogged down by the 4 TIEs the other guy brought. What do you normally run as your squadrons list?

I'll jump on the "Rieekan is great" bandwagon, but you can do a lot of work with Garm or Dodonna too. If you want to work with aces, go Rieekan though. See what he can do for you, haha.

Hey guys, again, thanks for all the advice! My don't owning R+V is due to the fact that I really don't like them. I feel that they add a ton of crazy synergies, and I'm only playing for two months now, so that can wait for a bit. Since I have two fleets and my opponents necessarily share in my stuff (super casual play ), there's no danger of anyone getting the upper hand with a surprise purchase.

It is interesting that you attribute easier squadron play to the Imperials, because I always had the feeling that the smaller rebel numbers make them easier to use in a concentrated manner. But then again, I just suck as a carrier commander, always losing contact to the squadrons.

Two words: Boosted comms :-D

Rebels are a lot less Intuitive and also a lot less potent at their price range. In fact, they're unplayable given their high cost and so-so abilities.

I am not sure what your experience is playing them or against but saying that Rebel Aces are unplayable is unfounded. I would be curious to hear how you could back up this statement.

Yeah sounds like limited experience. My rebel buddy won a store champs with his reikaan aces list and came in second at the one I won. It took a bunch of practice and a bunch of tweaking but he wrecks with it.

I guess, but in my (probably biased opinion) I've played a fair amount of competitive Armada. For what it's worth, I won the only Store Champ I played in (16 people) and just took dice home from the first Regional, so I think I have a so-so amount of experience with the competitive game.

I also provided quite a bit of context to my claims, as well as an explanation of how Rebel Aces can be used effectively to make them worth their points. But, in my opinion, without ways to multi-activate or zombie-fie your unique Rebel Squadrons, the differences between Wedge, Luke, and Farlander and their generic counterparts does not, in my opinion, justify their cost. In a standard game, for instance, Luke may only take one or two shots at a cap ship (he's no better than a generic X shooting at enemy squads, so that doesn't matter) and he's as likely to whiff as he is to force that crit through. In a Yavaris/Talon build, though, he's likely to get about six shots at a enemy ships. With Reikaan, he becomes an immortal bodyguard that enemy squads have to continue shooting even past death.

But yea, if you're not using Reikaan or Yavaris or Talon but you're paying for Luke, Wedge, or Farlander, I think you're throwing points away. Tycho is okay without that tech support, since he exists to be an obnoxious roadblock, but in the age of Intel I think he's pretty terrible (enemy squads can easily get free of him). Dutch is pretty decent even without support, but with it he can pin down 2-3 Firesprays in a single turn. Han is good but really expensive, and I can't ever find enough points to justify taking him. Dash is fantastic. Jan Ors is obligatory, even if you just surround her with generic X-Wings. Nym is fun but his ability is waaaaay too dicey. Roll lucky and you bone your opponent, roll average and you paid a premium for nothing, and I guess I'm not enough of a gambler. Toryn Farr may make Nym a bit more interesting, though.

Rebels are a lot less Intuitive and also a lot less potent at their price range. In fact, they're unplayable given their high cost and so-so abilities.

I am not sure what your experience is playing them or against but saying that Rebel Aces are unplayable is unfounded. I would be curious to hear how you could back up this statement.

Yeah sounds like limited experience. My rebel buddy won a store champs with his reikaan aces list and came in second at the one I won. It took a bunch of practice and a bunch of tweaking but he wrecks with it.

I guess, but in my (probably biased opinion) I've played a fair amount of competitive Armada. For what it's worth, I won the only Store Champ I played in (16 people) and just took dice home from the first Regional, so I think I have a so-so amount of experience with the competitive game.

I also provided quite a bit of context to my claims, as well as an explanation of how Rebel Aces can be used effectively to make them worth their points. But, in my opinion, without ways to multi-activate or zombie-fie your unique Rebel Squadrons, the differences between Wedge, Luke, and Farlander and their generic counterparts does not, in my opinion, justify their cost. In a standard game, for instance, Luke may only take one or two shots at a cap ship (he's no better than a generic X shooting at enemy squads, so that doesn't matter) and he's as likely to whiff as he is to force that crit through. In a Yavaris/Talon build, though, he's likely to get about six shots at a enemy ships. With Reikaan, he becomes an immortal bodyguard that enemy squads have to continue shooting even past death.

But yea, if you're not using Reikaan or Yavaris or Talon but you're paying for Luke, Wedge, or Farlander, I think you're throwing points away. Tycho is okay without that tech support, since he exists to be an obnoxious roadblock, but in the age of Intel I think he's pretty terrible (enemy squads can easily get free of him). Dutch is pretty decent even without support, but with it he can pin down 2-3 Firesprays in a single turn. Han is good but really expensive, and I can't ever find enough points to justify taking him. Dash is fantastic. Jan Ors is obligatory, even if you just surround her with generic X-Wings. Nym is fun but his ability is waaaaay too dicey. Roll lucky and you bone your opponent, roll average and you paid a premium for nothing, and I guess I'm not enough of a gambler. Toryn Farr may make Nym a bit more interesting, though.

Thanks for the response. I feel like you personally dont like them but you can see they have merit under the right conditions which is what most people are saying. I wont argue that one to one and without upgrades the Imperials have superior squadrons but that doesnt invalidate the Rebels.

Rebels are a lot less Intuitive and also a lot less potent at their price range. In fact, they're unplayable given their high cost and so-so abilities.

I am not sure what your experience is playing them or against but saying that Rebel Aces are unplayable is unfounded. I would be curious to hear how you could back up this statement.

Yeah sounds like limited experience. My rebel buddy won a store champs with his reikaan aces list and came in second at the one I won. It took a bunch of practice and a bunch of tweaking but he wrecks with it.

I guess, but in my (probably biased opinion) I've played a fair amount of competitive Armada. For what it's worth, I won the only Store Champ I played in (16 people) and just took dice home from the first Regional, so I think I have a so-so amount of experience with the competitive game.

I also provided quite a bit of context to my claims, as well as an explanation of how Rebel Aces can be used effectively to make them worth their points. But, in my opinion, without ways to multi-activate or zombie-fie your unique Rebel Squadrons, the differences between Wedge, Luke, and Farlander and their generic counterparts does not, in my opinion, justify their cost. In a standard game, for instance, Luke may only take one or two shots at a cap ship (he's no better than a generic X shooting at enemy squads, so that doesn't matter) and he's as likely to whiff as he is to force that crit through. In a Yavaris/Talon build, though, he's likely to get about six shots at a enemy ships. With Reikaan, he becomes an immortal bodyguard that enemy squads have to continue shooting even past death.

But yea, if you're not using Reikaan or Yavaris or Talon but you're paying for Luke, Wedge, or Farlander, I think you're throwing points away. Tycho is okay without that tech support, since he exists to be an obnoxious roadblock, but in the age of Intel I think he's pretty terrible (enemy squads can easily get free of him). Dutch is pretty decent even without support, but with it he can pin down 2-3 Firesprays in a single turn. Han is good but really expensive, and I can't ever find enough points to justify taking him. Dash is fantastic. Jan Ors is obligatory, even if you just surround her with generic X-Wings. Nym is fun but his ability is waaaaay too dicey. Roll lucky and you bone your opponent, roll average and you paid a premium for nothing, and I guess I'm not enough of a gambler. Toryn Farr may make Nym a bit more interesting, though.

Thanks for the response. I feel like you personally dont like them but you can see they have merit under the right conditions which is what most people are saying. I wont argue that one to one and without upgrades the Imperials have superior squadrons but that doesnt invalidate the Rebels.

My entire original point was that they "have merit under the right conditions" and I listed those conditions, which then presupposes by converse that outside of those conditions they do not have merit.

-- I express my position, let's call it View X

-- You dismiss it and say I'm just an inexperienced Casual

-- I say I'm not just an inexperienced casual

-- You are pleased to see I finally accept View X

Ummm....what? I don't understand...

I see a lot of people discounting Luke and I used to do this as well, until he starts finishing off wounded ships that cannot cancel is 1 or 2 damage, even when they try to repair their shields. I've had Luke finish off or even solo Gladiators and other small Rebel ships, especially if he is getting Adar Talon activated - even better when combo'd off Adar in to a Yavaris.

As many have said Keyan can be a monster, I love a Luke/Keyan double team.

Rebels are a lot less Intuitive and also a lot less potent at their price range. In fact, they're unplayable given their high cost and so-so abilities.

I am not sure what your experience is playing them or against but saying that Rebel Aces are unplayable is unfounded. I would be curious to hear how you could back up this statement.

Yeah sounds like limited experience. My rebel buddy won a store champs with his reikaan aces list and came in second at the one I won. It took a bunch of practice and a bunch of tweaking but he wrecks with it.

I guess, but in my (probably biased opinion) I've played a fair amount of competitive Armada. For what it's worth, I won the only Store Champ I played in (16 people) and just took dice home from the first Regional, so I think I have a so-so amount of experience with the competitive game.

I also provided quite a bit of context to my claims, as well as an explanation of how Rebel Aces can be used effectively to make them worth their points. But, in my opinion, without ways to multi-activate or zombie-fie your unique Rebel Squadrons, the differences between Wedge, Luke, and Farlander and their generic counterparts does not, in my opinion, justify their cost. In a standard game, for instance, Luke may only take one or two shots at a cap ship (he's no better than a generic X shooting at enemy squads, so that doesn't matter) and he's as likely to whiff as he is to force that crit through. In a Yavaris/Talon build, though, he's likely to get about six shots at a enemy ships. With Reikaan, he becomes an immortal bodyguard that enemy squads have to continue shooting even past death.

But yea, if you're not using Reikaan or Yavaris or Talon but you're paying for Luke, Wedge, or Farlander, I think you're throwing points away. Tycho is okay without that tech support, since he exists to be an obnoxious roadblock, but in the age of Intel I think he's pretty terrible (enemy squads can easily get free of him). Dutch is pretty decent even without support, but with it he can pin down 2-3 Firesprays in a single turn. Han is good but really expensive, and I can't ever find enough points to justify taking him. Dash is fantastic. Jan Ors is obligatory, even if you just surround her with generic X-Wings. Nym is fun but his ability is waaaaay too dicey. Roll lucky and you bone your opponent, roll average and you paid a premium for nothing, and I guess I'm not enough of a gambler. Toryn Farr may make Nym a bit more interesting, though.

Thanks for the response. I feel like you personally dont like them but you can see they have merit under the right conditions which is what most people are saying. I wont argue that one to one and without upgrades the Imperials have superior squadrons but that doesnt invalidate the Rebels.

My entire original point was that they "have merit under the right conditions" and I listed those conditions, which then presupposes by converse that outside of those conditions they do not have merit.

-- I express my position, let's call it View X

-- You dismiss it and say I'm just an inexperienced Casual

-- I say I'm not just an inexperienced casual

-- You are pleased to see I finally accept View X

Ummm....what? I don't understand...

I stick by what I said based solely on this comment from you "In fact, they're unplayable given their high cost and so-so abilities." To be honest I was trying to keep it civil but since you dont understand my point I will make it simple for you. By making a self-proclaimed indisputable statement like "they're unplayable" you are telling everyone that Rebel Aces have no value but then you give examples how they are playable. This is contradictory and doesnt support your statement. I was trying to giving you a chance to recount your statement or provide proof that it is valid and all you did is dilute your argument even more. I suggest you stop while you are ahead.

Not to put words in AllWings' mouth, but I think his point was "they're unplayable in a vacuum," i.e., that comparing Luke to Vader straight across, Vader is better, and that Luke only becomes better in conjunction with rebel-specific upgrades like Yavaris and Adar.

I disagree, but it's certainly a more defensible position than "Rebel aces can't be used effectively," which is what I think a lot of us got from that.

I gave him too much credit.

They are unplayable, unless you build specifically to milk them (Talon/Yavaris/Riekaan). Without that focused tech, I'm convinced that Wedge/Luke/Keyan are always strictly worse than just bringing more generic squadrons. If you do build your entire list around your unique squadrons, then yes, as I've said way upthread in my initial response, they can become quite good (but it's not like they're tearing up the Regional scene yet, that honor seems reserved for Rhymer Balls which constituted almost the entirety of the Top 8 at my first regional).

In contrast, Imp Aces like Rhymer, Howlrunner, and Mithel offer incredible values to just about any squadron lineup, without requiring specific squad-boost ship upgrades to justify their costs. In fact, there is no reason why any Imperial list with more than four squadrons should not have Rhymer, regardless of ships and types of squadrons, because he offers so much flexibility to your squadrons. It also doesn't help matters that Dengar, the Imp's obligatory source of Intel, offers incredible boosts to both Howlrunner and Mithel. Intel means Mithel can trigger his massive auto-damage every turn without needing your 10pt Chiraneau anymore, and Dengar also grants blanket Counter 1 which buffs Howlrunner because she effectively makes it Counter 2 for TIEs. 8pts for a squadron that has 4 Anti-Squad with Reroll, Counter 2 with Reroll, and can roll a Blue at ships from mid-range is pretty damned good. Having Scatter on all three Aces also means they are much more insulated against anti-ship batteries and can, when lucky, negate enemy squadron attacks. Being Speed 4 also makes a pretty big difference, and means against Fireballs and Rebel Fighters they can more easily control the engagement by having the farther strike-range threatened.

They are unplayable, unless you build specifically to milk them (Talon/Yavaris/Riekaan). Without that focused tech, I'm convinced that Wedge/Luke/Keyan are always strictly worse than just bringing more generic squadrons. If you do build your entire list around your unique squadrons, then yes, as I've said way upthread, they can become quite good (but it's not like they're tearing up the Regional scene yet, that honor seems reserved for Rhymer Balls).

Okay, nevermind. Yeah, you're wrong. You just don't like that Rebels synergize with ships and Imperials synergize with other squadrons.

AllWings, what I think you need to start doing is comparing:

Wedge at 19pts

to

Howl with three interceptors at 49pts.

Wedge alone has up to 6 blue dice for 19pts and two defence tokens.

For 49pts with imperials you get 18 blue dice with 4 rerolls and two defence tokens.

Now I'm no mathmatician, but that doesnt look quite as one sided a fight as you seem to be making out....

They are unplayable, unless you build specifically to milk them (Talon/Yavaris/Riekaan). Without that focused tech, I'm convinced that Wedge/Luke/Keyan are always strictly worse than just bringing more generic squadrons. If you do build your entire list around your unique squadrons, then yes, as I've said way upthread, they can become quite good (but it's not like they're tearing up the Regional scene yet, that honor seems reserved for Rhymer Balls).

Okay, nevermind. Yeah, you're wrong. You just don't like that Rebels synergize with ships and Imperials synergize with other squadrons.

So, are you saying that Wedge, Luke, and Farlander are good additions to a list that does not have Yavaris, Talon, or Reikaan?

They are unplayable, unless you build specifically to milk them (Talon/Yavaris/Riekaan). Without that focused tech, I'm convinced that Wedge/Luke/Keyan are always strictly worse than just bringing more generic squadrons. If you do build your entire list around your unique squadrons, then yes, as I've said way upthread, they can become quite good (but it's not like they're tearing up the Regional scene yet, that honor seems reserved for Rhymer Balls).

Okay, nevermind. Yeah, you're wrong. You just don't like that Rebels synergize with ships and Imperials synergize with other squadrons.

So, are you saying that Wedge, Luke, and Farlander are good additions to a list that does not have Yavaris, Talon, or Reikaan?

Yes, but not all three at once. Same as taking Rhymer, Howlrunner and Mauler doesnt work well either.

They are unplayable, unless you build specifically to milk them (Talon/Yavaris/Riekaan). Without that focused tech, I'm convinced that Wedge/Luke/Keyan are always strictly worse than just bringing more generic squadrons. If you do build your entire list around your unique squadrons, then yes, as I've said way upthread, they can become quite good (but it's not like they're tearing up the Regional scene yet, that honor seems reserved for Rhymer Balls).

Okay, nevermind. Yeah, you're wrong. You just don't like that Rebels synergize with ships and Imperials synergize with other squadrons.

So, are you saying that Wedge, Luke, and Farlander are good additions to a list that does not have Yavaris, Talon, or Reikaan?

Yes, but not all three at once. Same as taking Rhymer, Howlrunner and Mauler doesnt work well either.

I disagree, I actually think one of the best Imp fighter lists uses all of them:

Howlrunner

Mithel

Rhymer

Dengar

TIE Adv x2 (or TIE Adv x1, JM5000 x1)

TIE Fighter x5

While it lacks some oomph against ships compared to standard Fireballs and Bomber Balls, it's still throwing a lot of blue dice at ships from medium range and that's not insignificant damage. What it loses there, though, it gains in spades matching up against other squadron lists. It utterly shreds Fireballs, standard Rhymer Bomber Balls, and Rebel Fighter lists. With so many squadrons, it can also do a good job of locking up more of an opponent's bombers, especially if they only have a single source of Intel.

Maybe I've just had luck with it because my meta involves so many Fireballs (ie, people willing to go out and buy five or six Rogue packs). [but then we've also got a guy who flies the seven CR90s with TRC (yea, he bought seven corvettes and seven MC30s for the TRCs)].

They are unplayable, unless you build specifically to milk them (Talon/Yavaris/Riekaan). Without that focused tech, I'm convinced that Wedge/Luke/Keyan are always strictly worse than just bringing more generic squadrons. If you do build your entire list around your unique squadrons, then yes, as I've said way upthread, they can become quite good (but it's not like they're tearing up the Regional scene yet, that honor seems reserved for Rhymer Balls).

Okay, nevermind. Yeah, you're wrong. You just don't like that Rebels synergize with ships and Imperials synergize with other squadrons.

So, are you saying that Wedge, Luke, and Farlander are good additions to a list that does not have Yavaris, Talon, or Reikaan?

Yes, but not all three at once. Same as taking Rhymer, Howlrunner and Mauler doesnt work well either.

I disagree, I actually think one of the best Imp fighter lists uses all of them:

Howlrunner

Mithel

Rhymer

Dengar

TIE Adv x2 (or TIE Adv x1, JM5000 x1)

TIE Fighter x5

While it lacks some oomph against ships compared to standard Fireballs and Bomber Balls, it's still throwing a lot of blue dice at ships from medium range and that's not insignificant damage. What it loses there, though, it gains in spades matching up against other squadron lists. It utterly shreds Fireballs, standard Rhymer Bomber Balls, and Rebel Fighter lists. With so many squadrons, it can also do a good job of locking up more of an opponent's bombers, especially if they only have a single source of Intel.

Maybe I've just had luck with it because my meta involves so many Fireballs (ie, people willing to go out and buy five or six Rogue packs). [but then we've also got a guy who flies the seven CR90s with TRC (yea, he bought seven corvettes and seven MC30s for the TRCs)].

Gud economy where u live, bro?

If you spend 131pts on ANY anti bomber squadrons you will dominate the squadron fight.

Your still pumping pointless points into Rhymer and Mauler. You are meaninglessly wasting points on imperial aces and have the nerve to argue that rebel aces are a waste.

I am out of this argument, theres no point,

If you spend 131pts on ANY anti bomber squadrons you will dominate the squadron fight.

Your still pumping pointless points into Rhymer and Mauler. You are meaninglessly wasting points on imperial aces and have the nerve to argue that rebel aces are a waste.

I am out of this argument, theres no point,

I didn't think I'd ever agree with Ginkapo about anything, but sometimes life throws you little surprises.

To be fair, give me posts in the fleet building section and I give sane advice.

Otherwise, I start commenting on other posts where my advice is far from sensible. But seriously, cluster bombs are underrated.

If you spend 131pts on ANY anti bomber squadrons you will dominate the squadron fight.

Your still pumping pointless points into Rhymer and Mauler. You are meaninglessly wasting points on imperial aces and have the nerve to argue that rebel aces are a waste.

I am out of this argument, theres no point,

Rhymer is wasted points? The most obviously close-to-broken card in this game, wasted points? The card that is in every single Imperial fleet except for ones that go with next to no squadrons? Okay, agree to disagree.

@AllWingStandingBy - I do believe the sub-argument being this:

"If you're taking Squadrons to Kill Squadrons, then Rhymer does nothing for you, and is wasted points compared to more Squadrons to kill Squadrons."

Its a valid sub-argument. Because being the most "close to broken" card is wasted points if you are not using it for its intended purpose .

What does Rhymer give you, for his points, when you want to kill Enemy Squadrons, compared to almost any other choice?

Now, of course, we know that taking Rhymer does help you when you want to have your Squadrons Shoot at Ships , even as a backup potential for your Anti-Squadron Squadrons... However ... It is wasted points when it is not taken for that purpose... That is all being argued there.

@AllWingStandingBy - I do believe the sub-argument being this:

"If you're taking Squadrons to Kill Squadrons, then Rhymer does nothing for you, and is wasted points compared to more Squadrons to kill Squadrons."

Its a valid sub-argument. Because being the most "close to broken" card is wasted points if you are not using it for its intended purpose .

What does Rhymer give you, for his points, when you want to kill Enemy Squadrons, compared to almost any other choice?

Now, of course, we know that taking Rhymer does help you when you want to have your Squadrons Shoot at Ships , even as a backup potential for your Anti-Squadron Squadrons... However ... It is wasted points when it is not taken for that purpose... That is all being argued there.

I guess, but even if you only use Rhymer one turn, he's well worth his points (ie, not wasted). Rhymer is one of those cards (like the Demonlisher) that makes your opponent alter their entire game plan and approach around, so even if you never trigger his ability you may still be gaining something from him. No one alters their entire game plan around Wedge or Luke or Keyan (unless their accompanied by Yavaris/Talon for triple-tap threats). So it's always a good idea to bring Rhymer, because he presents such flexibility to what your squadrons can do and his threat alone forces the opponent's hand. Even if you plan on using most of your squadrons to shred Firesprays for a round or two, for instance, you're still going to get value out of Rhymer well beyond his 16 points. Even if you spend most of the game dog-fighting, you can use Intel and Rhymer to opportunistically finish off limping ships or strip shields prior to a ship attack even from the midst of the dogfight.

That is like, in my mind, on the completely other side of the spectrum from "wasted points."

I am not saying your point is Invalid. Your point, boiling down to "If you use him, he's not wasted points." And I agree with it.

But

I am not saying his point is Invalid... His point, boiling down to "If you don't use him, he's wasted points." And I agree with it.

Both of you are correct - the more correct one is the one who set the variables to support their experiment

I am reminded of this statement for some reason - Chaos and Law are not total opposites. One enables the other. For something to be truly chaotic, one must accept the possibility of any possibility, including the total absense of chaos...