Would encourage getting things in arc with a turret.

Thoughts?

Basically it would just give them something on top of what they already got. If you get them in arc, nice ill take it. If not just do whatever you did before.

No. Ships that can carry turrets aren't broken, and don't need balance changes.

ner

ffg's method of 2-dice crap PWT + useful benefit in arc (or via bomb) is far more effective for encouraging use of firing arc and actual positioning

No thank you.

Wave 5 meta called. They want their silly fix ideas back.

I have told the same things several times:

- Defender should get 2 extra green dices when defending out of arc.

- The development of autothrusters in my opinion is a mistake, because it´s only available for ships with boost action

Here we go again...Who is the author of the topic? Ach...ok...nevemind...move along...

Turrets do not need more help.

You tryin' to buff yer Dengar?

I have told the same things several times:

- Defender should get 2 extra green dices when defending out of arc.

- The development of autothrusters in my opinion is a mistake, because it´s only available for ships with boost action

Two extra green dice when out of arc would have some odd effects, though. It would strongly reward ships that already have very good action economy, like Soontir Fel, as well as ships that don't really rely on agility for their hit points. Low-hp, high-agility ships that rely on the normal one action per round would be mostly left out, since they can't really capitalize on the extra dice and are still vulnerable to bad streaks of luck. (That is, the mean result would increase, but without actions, the variance increases faster.)

Autothrusters requires the boost action because it's a feasible way to limit its application mostly to the ships that need it: ships with low hit points and high agility who rely on smart positioning rather than tanking damage.

we all know what I'd have to say about 2 extra green dice

(might as well just leave turrets as is, because green dice won't do ****)

I like to think of it like this: the two goals of maneuvering are to get enemy ships into your arc and to keep yourself out of the enemy arc.

In a hypothetical perfect balance all ships fall somewhere on this scale. Ships that are hard to place on here either have some other trick (such as support ships) or lack in role and power.

Our three classic archetypes of straight up combat ship ship are the Jouster, Arc Dodger And Turret, characterised by their three defining traits: Durability (statline), Coverage (the ability to keep ships in arc, which is firing arc size and to an extent dial and reposition) and Dodging Ability (the ability to stay out of arc, which is dial and reposition).

The Jouster's durability means that in a straight up exchange with a Turret or Arc Dodger it will win: they can't compete on sheer statline. Therefore, a hypothetical Extreme Jouster doesn't care about enemy arcs pointed at it at all.

The Turret is the inverse: its extreme coverage means it doesn't care about getting enemy ships in arc. What it does care about is getting out of enemy arcs, as it'll lose a straight up confrontation with anything other than an hypothetical Extreme Arc Dodger, which'll be a fair fight.

The Arc Dodger's extreme is a ship that never fights if both sides have a shot. It's no better at getting a shot than the Jouster and will dodge out of arc without getting a shot itself every time.

You may have noticed that none of these extremes really exist. It's a good thing too, because they'd turn the game into a rather dull rock paper scissors.

All "Jousters" have an element of Coverage and Dodging Ability to them from their maneuver dials: the more maneuverable ones are closer to the centre. This also illustrates the Barrel Roll Boost dichotomy: Boost primarily boosts coverage and Barrel Roll Dodging Ability. Arc dodgers have a strong element of coverage: Soontir is much better at getting a shot than an X-wing is.

The Turret is an interesting case. The Extreme Turret doesn't exist and with good reason: it'd be something like a 2/0/1/0 Z-95 with a PWT.

What it isn't is the Decimator, Outrider or Falcon, our main Range 1-3 PWTs. None of these ships are completely lacking in Durability or Dodging ability, yet they already have maximum Coverage. That means the diagram looks a bit more like this.

This gives two extremes for the Turret in practice: the Jouster Turret and the Arc Dodger Turret.

The Jouster Turret is the loathed "game mechanic ignorer," and the Outrider, Falcon and Decimator all are this type to an extent. While not as strong in the statline as a ship much deeper into the jouster region, a Jouster Turret can trade dice while being itself undodgeable. While it can be killed by outjousting it, it's an incredibly dull ship. Recall earlier I said that an extreme jouster only needs to catch enemies in arc and an extreme turret only needs to avoid being caught in arc itself? A Jouster Turret doesn't care much about either. It needs to avoid being focused down by ships with high jousting character. This means its maneuvers don't matter that much.

This setup is incredibly dull for all involved and that's why FFG brought out so much stuff to counter it to death.

The Arc Dodger Turret is the turret that cannot afford to trade dice, and the closest we get to this are non-tanked down PWTs with Engine Upgrade and maybe now the Sabine Attack Shuttle if the turret slot is filled. This is the PWT as it should be. Maneuvering is critical to the Arc Dodger Turret: it can't joust. It has to dodge enemy arcs to survive, and thus it interacts heavily with the maneuvering game for both players.

With its jousting ability reduced by the advent of ordnance and previously by TLT spam, I think the Arc Dodger Turret is now the more viable form. This is a good thing in my view, because the Arc Dodger turret can be fun for both players and the Jouster Turret is fun for neither.

I would be for secondary weapons not ignoring range 3 bonuses myself but that is mostly because I hate Talonbane losing half of his ability when he flies against ships with secondary weapons

Turrets would be thematically balanced if the rule was simply: "Target locks and/or focus tokens may not be used to modify attacks performed against ships that are out of arc." It rewards piloting and positioning, while not unduly privileging or penalizing turreted ships. It brings all turrets (TLTs) into line, as running away and double-tapping becomes less effective. Frankly, I think that's all was ever needed.

I would argue that the Outrider is not a jouster turret. It is almost exclusively Dash, and Dash is exclusively an Arc-Dodger... Except for PS, the maneuverability is second to none, and with Kanan is even better. No one is going to joust with Dash... the 2 agility just isnt enough and his 10 total hitpoints goes fast if he's focus fired upon.

Additionally... its rare (nearly unheard of) for Dash to not have the HLC, Adding even more skill into flying it

I would argue that the Outrider is not a jouster turret. It is almost exclusively Dash, and Dash is exclusively an Arc-Dodger... Except for PS, the maneuverability is second to none, and with Kanan is even better. No one is going to joust with Dash... the 2 agility just isnt enough and his 10 total hitpoints goes fast if he's focus fired upon.

Additionally... its rare (nearly unheard of) for Dash to not have the HLC, Adding even more skill into flying it

Maybe. I always found the Outrider to be pretty solid in the statline department. Dash is definitely the least Jouster of the turretbricks though.

I get wanting to make it so that being in arc actually matters for a PWT. But doing so by buffing PWTs, which are already close to being game breaking, is a terrible idea.

Oh thats good stuff. The Magic Triangle applied to X-Wing game balance. I like it.

I think it's okay that getting ships in arc doesn't matter for the main PWTs, so long as getting out of arc does.

You tryin' to buff yer Dengar?

... He hates fat Han but now that Scum got a 3-dice PWT he wants to make it broken good...

I get wanting to make it so that being in arc actually matters for a PWT. But doing so by buffing PWTs, which are already close to being game breaking, is a terrible idea.

A very good argument and well structured.

The barrel roll/boost observation is a very intelligent one.

The Achilles heel of 'jousters' has always been their difficulty getting shots in the first place - which is why the 'sort of jousters but not quite' like the T-70 are quite fun to fly.

The one weakness with this view is its 2-d nature - in theory, changing the type of the ship moves it around on the diagram. The problem is that 'broken' or similar perjuratives tend to apply to either large ships, unique ships or both; all ships are not equal and where there are balance or fun problems in my experience it comes from the ability to stitch together mutually reinforcing combinations of upgrades - the jumpmaster is a case in point.

I get wanting to make it so that being in arc actually matters for a PWT. But doing so by buffing PWTs, which are already close to being game breaking, is a terrible idea.

But they wouldn't get their normal range 1 out of arc bonus die though. They'd be trading that for the in arc range 2 bonus die.

It's only a buff if you already are flying in such a way to get things in arc.

This is not something they'd implement, but as someone who spent some time in a turret in SWG, I can tell you, trying to fire a turret while a ship is maneuvering is insanely difficult.

How I would LIKE for it to work, is for PWTs max range to be limited when firing outside its firing arc based on the type of maneuver the ship took that turn.

Green Maneuver: Max Range 3 as normal
White Maneuver: Max Range 2
Red Maneuver: Max Range 1

When shooting inside it's front arc though, it shoots completely normally.

But they wouldn't get their normal range 1 out of arc bonus die though. They'd be trading that for the in arc range 2 bonus die.

It's only a buff if you already are flying in such a way to get things in arc.

Maybe I misunderstood the suggestion then.

There is no Jouster. No ship that sees consistent play is just a jouster. Jousting was wave 1-2 mentality... we had to joust because the game was made to do that at the time; now ships can't just line up and fire and kturn their way to success. They must do something else.

And no. Turrets need no additional benefits. Terrible idea.